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Hahn harvester head…anyone ever use one

Started by Big Rooster, January 15, 2014, 10:05:35 PM

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Big Rooster

The pulp market in our area has come back to half way respectable levels last year.  I am contemplating a way to economically harvest pure pulp stands in Montana.  I already own a Deere 135 zero swing excavator and was looking at harvester heads.  The Hahn head is definitely the most economical out there and I know they are slow and max out at 16" diameters.  I like the idea of the fixed CTL heads and I will be pairing this with a swing grapple skidder.
My questions being:

Who has experience running one...what did you think???
What was production per day!
Could a person cut logs out to 33' or 35' with this head (some people do this in our area with a (762 head or a 470 head)
Can you cut accurate lengths in in sawlogs??  Not many presets

I also know a dedicated harvester and newer head like a 470 Waratah would run circles around my idea above but I own the machine and could have a decent used head put on for $30K versus lots of $$$$$$$$

snowstorm

there is a machine not far from here with a hahn head on it. i dont think they have got it working. its not a very big head. your excavator was built to move dirt not cut wood. it has the wrong style boom for a fixed head. not enought oil cooling. would need cab guarding. the undercarriage will be trouble more so if it has wide shoes. a dangle head would work with the boom it has. would put less stress on the machine. would have to travel less so less undercarriage wear. you would still need lexan windows and some guarding. there are vids on youtube of excavators with dangle heads

Big Rooster

Thanks for the reply.  As mentioned above I do know it is not a purpose built carrier.  I'll have constraints on slope, power etc.  The machine does work in the woods full time and has full ROPS, screens, swivel guards, and rock guards.  So really all I would add would be a lexan window for chain shot.  The Hahn harvester heads were built for excavators my size and smaller.  It requires 34GPM and the machine has 56GPM. 

Some of the post and pole yards are using them here and love them but I can't find any loggers running them that I know.  I have seen them on lowboys around the area.  As for other smaller fixed heads there are numerous JD490 with fabtek 4 roller heads.  I would not be opposed to the Fabteks but then I would have to go to cat for parts and all 3 pieces of my equipment are JD.

I'm hoping to find someone that knows these Hahn heads good and can really give me the low down?

BargeMonkey

 The coolers in your 135 where never made for a harvester. Your talking about 3-4 more pieces of pipe down the boom, set up the handles, a serious amount of work. Ive looked into a CSI/CTR/Huldtins for a small excavator, for general clearing and feeding a chipper, by the time you get done its almost cheaper to buy 2 low hour machines. What about an older 490 with a 4-roller ?

snowstorm

like i said the boom is wrong for a fixed mount head. you would have maybe 8' of working range? and the closest you could cut is 8' from the track? 56gpm is a little light. my rottne delivers 85gpm. how big is the wood and how tall? clear cut or thinning? you planing on yarding the wood with a skidder? i looked at a 1270tj last winter the owner had a plan that he would cut and limb with the 1270 then yard it with his cable skidder. only took him a few days to see it wouldnt work. in a clear cut it might 

Big Rooster

The Hahn heads max out at 16" and that is pushing it.  So we are talking small wood.  They were designed for excavators my size and smaller and they are definitely a notch below anything currently on the market performance wise.  I do realize I'll have about $10K in plumbing/electrical/diverter valves/and labor to get the machine working.  I think the machine could handle the fixed head with small wood.  It would be used on commercial thins cutting mostly pulp. 

As for a older 490/Fabtek.... the ones I see are just beat to hell around here and if I was going to shell out on a second machine, there are 2618/608  TJ's with 762c/470 heads around.  But it is risky purchasing one of those older machines. 

What do I need to know about a fixed head.  All I have ever seen in Montana are dangle heads.  I realize they are faster and easier on the machine but I like the functionality of a fixed head, especially when used in conjunction with the swing grapple skidder.  I see how I can only work within 8' or so of the machine but can I not reach out.  With the long jib boom and bucket I can reach 29'.  Could I not cut from 8' out to say 25'?

Thanks for the comments it makes me think.  Hopefully we get someone that has run a Hahn 160 harvester head show up here.

BargeMonkey

I would call a few of the equipment dealers up there, Lakeshore, Deliches, or Woodland Equipment, and talk to them, they may have a head or know a little more. Richards Machinery also had a few of those heads for a while, someones got what you want.  I have a fixed head on my Timbco, and sometimes you just about require a change of underwear when your cutting and swinging bigger wood, especially working at max reach.

barbender

I was working on a block of black spruce last winter next to a fella running a JD 120 excavator with one of the Hahn heads on it. He had bypassed the feed rollers for some reason and was using it for just the felling function. Yes, it was kind of slow and the spruce was pretty small, about 8" dbh, but it handled it fine.
Too many irons in the fire

BargeMonkey

 I wanna know how you guys are making any money with pulp ? We ship only softwood pulp,  but it basically covers fuel, there's just no money in it around here unless your putting out 20-30 load a week and hauling it yourself. Unless it has a sawlog in it, I wont wrap the head around a popular / aspen tree.

Ken

A friend of mine had one on a small JD excavator.  He sold it after about a year due to not being able to get service support and spare parts were hard to come by.  I watched him work a few times and it was terribly slow and leaky.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

snowstorm

Quote from: Big Rooster on January 16, 2014, 09:43:41 PM
The Hahn heads max out at 16" and that is pushing it.  So we are talking small wood.  They were designed for excavators my size and smaller and they are definitely a notch below anything currently on the market performance wise.  I do realize I'll have about $10K in plumbing/electrical/diverter valves/and labor to get the machine working.  I think the machine could handle the fixed head with small wood.  It would be used on commercial thins cutting mostly pulp. 

As for a older 490/Fabtek.... the ones I see are just beat to hell around here and if I was going to shell out on a second machine, there are 2618/608  TJ's with 762c/470 heads around.  But it is risky purchasing one of those older machines. 

What do I need to know about a fixed head.  All I have ever seen in Montana are dangle heads.  I realize they are faster and easier on the machine but I like the functionality of a fixed head, especially when used in conjunction with the swing grapple skidder.  I see how I can only work within 8' or so of the machine but can I not reach out.  With the long jib boom and bucket I can reach 29'.  Could I not cut from 8' out to say 25'?

Thanks for the comments it makes me think.  Hopefully we get someone that has run a Hahn 160 harvester head show up here.
you have a long main boom and a short stick. almost every excavator is that way. to cut wood you need a short main boom and a long stick. with your bucket on the ground and the stick vertical now add 2ft for the clt head and thats as close to the tracks as it will cut a tree. so what was a zero tale swing now has 12' of front swing . buy something that was built for the job. not an excavator conversion . and a forwarder

barbender

BargeMonkey, Big Rooster is in Montana not Michigan, isn't that where all of those dealers are located? Big Rooster, there is a dangle head falling attachment made by Ryan's for excavators, I would look at that route and set up a delimbing gate for the skidder. I think that would be the cheapest way to put pulp on the landing for you. What kind of wood is this, Lodgepole pine? Where is the pulp going? If you want info from us you have to let us know what's going on out in Montana ;D Are you around Helena? I just ask because I know Ponsse had several machines working out there before the market tanked, and they have recently sold a few more machines out there. So I'm just curious what's happening with the markets, did existing mills come back on line, or is something new happening?
Too many irons in the fire

BargeMonkey

I knew he was out there, but if your going to look into that style head I would bet they would know where one is. Woodland deals all over the country, and they have been awesome to me on the phone every time I call. One of those dangle felling heads would be a good option, and you could get a mechanical delimber like the "stripper delimber".

Bobus2003

I used to have a Link Belt 1600 that had a Patu 410 (Kesla) stroke head on it. It was a nice machine and I could put up 4 loads a day pretty easy. Never had many big problems.. never had cooling issues, and I put it up hills that you only see leveling timbcos on. Had to help it up with a skidder, didn't have much swing power to put the logs uphill but it got the job done. I sold it a couple years ago when I lost my contract to the mill..

Big Rooster

Thanks All!

I'm still surprised no one on here has run one.  I'll answer a few questions from several of you.  I knew many people would push the purpose built carriers and I have no disagreements  with them over the enhanced performance these would provide.  And I may yet decide to go that route.  But from my perspective one must spend $100K to $150 on a used to get something that is not a total POS.

Here brings us to the excavator, which I own.  I know the 135 will run it, as they put smaller dangle heads on all the time or even masticators which generate even more heat.  The excavator is fully guarded and would only need Lexan windows plus a head.  It is run in the woods exclusively on logging units and wild land fire fighting on ground up to 65%.  My goal with the fixed head is to have a machine where we may be able to economically tap the pulp market.  Most of the pulp that comes in now is bug kill or the tops and junk off of traditional mechanical outfits.  They can not make it work to go into a pure stand of pulp and commercially thin.  I'm looking into that market with the above machine paired with a swing grapple skidder.  There are forwarders out here (a few) but they a pretty limited on where they can go.  And many times  even if the ground is not to steep but the road cut could be 15 foot and 80%.  High-track cats are also used but would be to slow for my plan.  The current pulp market is $32-$40 a ton (with the haul).

The reason I selected the Hahn (or maybe Fabtek if given some feed back) is so I have a cheap rather simple head.  Also,the fixed head allows me to tree length and place trees correctly for the skidder to efficiently pick up.  This would come in handy on private clean-up sales.  When running with a grapple skidder the logs need to be placed parallel to the skid trail and not perpendicular.  There are several guys that do it this way.  One cuts short logs on the hill.  The other tree lengths and limbs and then whole tree skids to the landing where they are cut into lengths.  (These outfits are not working on pure pulp sales)

Lastly,the reason I won't fully commit to a purpose built harvester is that all logging is local.  The problem in Montana is finding consistent work and weather and decent ground.  Most of  us out here work anywhere from 7-10 months a year.  The spring break up, fire season, heat, bad winters deep snow (just left a unit with 6 feet).  Sure if I had relatively flat ground and 11 months of work a year I could pay for a new CTL set-up.  But out here you better be able to ride the wave as it is boom and must...sometimes month to month or year to year. 

And to finish a little about myself as several were asking.  we currently log for Plum Creek Timber and go after the oversize, the adverse, the cliffed in, winch line, super scattered, 50-70% ground, etc wood that no one ever got....for good reason.  We skid mostly with a John Deere 650G, and use the swing grapple skidder to shuttle here and there.  80% of our current ground is to steep for skidders.  We also have the hoe for logging rehab, pulling roads, piling brush, and fighting fire.  It is just myself and a sawyer.  I've survived out here the last 5 years due to being small and managed and only needing to produce 40-60 tons per day. 

Keep it coming...someone on here must have one.

BargeMonkey

There maybe a reason why no ones run one / owns one ...  :D

Have you thought about a decent 425 timbco with just a bar saw head ? Theres plenty of good ones out there for well under 100k. Not fancy electronics for the head, no measuring system to go bad, and bar and chain is relatively cheap. I went down this road, looked at putting a head on a kobelco excavator,  or my 1st feller buncher which had a shear head, but  @ the end of the day I was smarter buying something meant for the woods. Sounds like you work some steep grades, why on earth would you want a non-leveling street pad equipped light carrier ? I watched a guy with a 490D-fabtek 4 roller work on a steep spruce lot a few years ago, that answered all the questions I had right there, watching him slide and fight to cut every tree. I believe they picked that machine up 3-4 times cutting that job.

wannaergo

sounds to me like you need a woods machine. an excavator with street pads will never compare to say, a 425, or even a 415. i have an uncle who runs a puny little kobelco excavator with a keto 500 on it, and he couldn't climb anything even close to what we could do with our old 415. he didnt have the traction or the track power. definetely not the swing power either. if he was cutting hills, he would have to pull himself up, or just go around and go down. if you're bunching, i would say a bigger dangle head or a fixed. our machine has a fabtek/cat head, and it's a really simple head. it has plenty of power, and it's not too slow. i actually know where you could get a 99 timbco 415 with a keto head for a decent price  :D
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

Big Rooster

If I do lean towards a purpose built I would probably lean towards JD or TJ as all my equipment is from there already.  It is nice going to one place for all my parts and their service manager is awesome about answering questions even if you are not bringing your machine in.  The older Timbcos out here always had a horribly bad reputation for overheating hydraulics.

Anyhow.  If a guy was to get a purpose built carrier what are some of the newer fixed heads out there.  As I mentioned no one in the state uses fixed heads other then those hahn/fabtek heads I've been looking at.  I look at you tube and it looks as though fixed head are just as popular as dangle around the rest of the country.  And while slightly slower (it appears) having the option to directionally fall and maybe build piles to skid later is a great option.

As for just the bar saw head....I want something to be able to process too.  As a 1-2man show I want to limit myself to 2 pieces of equipment and not 3.

And I know I mentioned how steep of ground we do hand sawing.  The whole idea of doing pulp with an excavator would only be economical on skidder ground flat to 30-40% which would be fine to run the hoe on.

What are some of the larger newer fixed heads out there.  I see those cat 501's come with one...what is that?

wannaergo

the 501 is basically a fabtek 153 with cat stickers on it. the head is the same setup, but it's been sped up and beefed up. it's got pretty decent power, and the biggest tree i can squeeze onto is about 24" which is a good sized tree. i've been pretty happy with how it performs. if the knives are sharp i can go through a 5-6 inch limb without too much trouble. it throws trees around pretty good, but once you get around 20 inch diameter, its a little trickier. i found that out last week when i dropped a 20 inch birch on my pickup cause i underestimated its lean.  ::)
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

logloper

Most of the other fixed head processors you will run into a weight issue. The Log-Max looks great in the videos. The Quadco 5660 looks even better. A friend was running the Quadco and said it was great but heavy, even on his 445EXL. I had the Fabtek and it was great. It didn't like processing long logs(37'6" was our goal) , they tended to fall out of the rollers. I switched to a LogMax 750 and it does much better, being that it has a second knife to hold the log in the head. It is a dangle head, and we bunch everything for a 525 grapple skidder. The fabtek was light and tough, but much slower. Look on forestryequipmentsales.com and you can find some good deals, and options. Whether you go with a Fabtek or Haughn or ? , you will be getting parts from someone other than John Deere.

BargeMonkey

 Theres a 501HD, new undercarriage and FT-240 Dangle sitting down the road for sale. You want a big head but a small carrier ?  I can cut, pick, and walk with just about anything 24" and down, after that you cut and push or hand cut the real nice stuff. There are quite a few 133's around for under 100k, and for pulp what more could you want.

1270d

He wants to use the excavator he has by the sounds of it.

BargeMonkey

Quote from: 1270d on January 19, 2014, 05:03:04 PM
He wants to use the excavator he has by the sounds of it.

Just throwing ideas out there. I went down this road trying to plumb an excavator and an older fellerbuncher.

barbender

If you are trying to delimb tree length with a processor head you will likely be disappointed. I know a couple brothers who bought a 703 (I think)Deere processor for delimbing bunched wood, in the woods rather than the stroke delimber on the landing they used to run. They found out it was a pain, you don't have enough reach to keep the butts from sticking in the ground. You will be snapping stems off, it's hard to delimb a whole tree without processing the log as it goes through the head. I suggested to, those guys they might as well get a forwarder and be done with it, and let that processor do what it was designed to. They did last spring, I haven't got to catch up with them to see how it's working out. The reason I was suggesting the delimbing gate was I know you are trying to keep it simple, Big Rooster. A dangle felling head would be way easier to plumb, and with a bit of practice  you will be directional felling and laying the wood right where you want it. Member smwoody has a drive over delimbing gate he has posted videos of on here. Drive over, back up, pull ahead and the limbs are pretty well taken care of.
Too many irons in the fire

logloper

Another thought if cutting straight pulp. Put a shear head on your excavator. Adapt the shear to pin on the boom and hook up to your thumb lines. If you don't have a thumb, all you really need is two lines out to the boom. You could later use these for a thumb. There are several used Dymax shears for sale online fairly cheap. The advantage of a shear is: next to 0 maintenance, much faster than a barsaw, you could pick the tree and bunch it better, shear blades take hardly any maintenance compared to chains.   I have both, and prefer the shear when cutting firewood or pulp. Mabe than use a delimbing gate, or a drag through delimber and a bucksaw. If you already have a loader, you could set up this way pretty cheap. I know lots of people out west use processors to process to long lengths. Very few(I know of 0) do CTL in the woods. There are virtually no forwarders used in commercial scale logging here, only yarders or skidders. Mabe the production requirements in the different types of wood are different, I don't know.

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