Which is better: Skidder? Excavator? Tractor?

[Shamus]

Hello fellow foruminators,
     Due to my rookie status as a forester/logger, I have largely been a lurker at the Forum, absorbing all the wisdom and humor shared on these postings. But now, I feel the need to step out of the shadows and ask for some sage advice. Heck, I'd settle for parsley at this point.   I am managing a 400 acre piece of property on Bowen Island up here in BC. I have been working on the land for two years now, and during that time have basically been cleaning up the mess left behind by other loggers and developers.  ;)
     I have built a small portable mill, a nursery to grow cedar and Doug-fir to 2 metres (deer proofing), and have continued to develop the property's road network with an old 300 series Komatsu crawler dozer. The work as you know is endless, but rewarding.
     This year I have convinced the landowner to invest in some equipment to increase productivity. I am looking at spending $20,000 on a new portable circular sawmill (D&L Doublecut, from Prince George), and $20-40,000 on one piece of heavy machinery. Here is where I get confused by all the options. Do I get a skidder, excavator, small tractor, etc.?  ???  Developing the roads and harvesting timber are equally important to the landowner, but he is only willing to purchase one machine right now. So if you were in my position, what equipment do you feel would be most indispensible?
        The property is relatively steep, and quite wet in many spots (north facing slopes). There is ample large timber, and we will be putting most of it through the mill to sell locally. I have heard of people converting grapple skidders into forwarders by fitting small grapple loader arms (eg Patu, Nokka, etc.) and attaching short trailers off the back end. Seems like an intriguing setup. But many people say that an excavator with a thumb on the bucket is a most versatile tool, able to use for hoe-chucking as well as road building, stump removal and so on. And then there are the backhoe loaders, but they can't be much good for moving timber around. Small 4x4 tractors are used a lot, but are better suited to flatter terrain, as I understand it. More popular on the east coast it seems.
     By the way, the landowner has got resources, he owns Brandt Tractor, and is the largest John Deere dealer in western Canada.   8) He only wants to run JD and Timberjack machines.
     I know that there are an infinite number of considerations in a decision such as this, but if you all could tell me if you have any strong preferences, that would be extremely helpful.  ;D ;D ;D

Truly, unruly, drooly,
Shamus aka 'Shambles'

[Tom]

Well, Shamus
What I would do might not be the thing you would do because my land is flat.  But, here are my thoughts.

Four hundred acres isn't much acreage to warrant a big skidder. You could have the place cleared and moved to one corner in front of your sawmill and be done with it in a few weeks. Then your sawmill would be looking at a pile of logs that it couldn't handle before the insects ate them up or they stained or rotted.  Then you would not have anything that was built to prepare the land for replanting.  

Seems to me that you need to think of this in little bites. You'll be taking a tree out now and again to saw.  That means you need to get it out with minimal damage to the other trees. Since the sawmill isn't going to cut but 10 trees a day (just a WAG) and you will be hard pressed to manage the lumber it produces for another day,  I'd say that Time getting the tree out would be a secondary consideration.  A tractor or a tractor with a wagon or other wheeled log carrier would be my first choice.   If the land is steep, a winch would be necessary.  I definitely would incorporate a Front End Loader on the tractor too.  It would be helpful moving and stacking logs as will as cleaning up.  The tractor is built for pulling implements that are designed for road building and the power take-off will drive chippers, mowers, splitters and all manner of equipment.

My second choice would an excavator.  Having it along with the tractor would be real handy.  You could build retention ponds, log ponds, dig stumps, build roads and get those really big trees out in tree length form, if you had too.

I have a rubber tired back-hoe and it is worth its weight in gold.  The front end loader is strong enough to carry very large logs and I've built a set of forks for it to.  (forks on a front end loader aren't the easiest to use but they work.) The backhoe boom is handy for unloading and loading trucks and wagons and trailers as well as tending to the sawmill ramp.  

It is big enough to dig stumps, move dead equipment, dig ditches, grade rough ground, clean up limbs and debris, etc.  I favor the rubber tires over the tracks here because of mobility.  I don't know that it would be as useful in hilly terrain.  Perhaps tracks would be better.  Rubber tires go where you need them but tracks need to be taken if the distance is very far at all.  Tracks can sure mess up a prepared area or paved road too.

A big skidder is kind of like a bull in china shop.  If time is of the essence, then a skidder may be justified.  It would be one of my last choices for a piece of land that size.  

I vote for the tractor.  You need to be careful about it being too little though. I'd be looking for at least a 60 horse and maybe better. Something that would get in and out of tight areas, have enough weight and traction to pull a decent log and man enough to support a Front end loader that would handle a sawlog and/or 500 to a thousand feet of flat-stacked lumber.

[logbutcher]

Shamus (this is Irish ain't it?):   ;D
Ditto for the wheeled tractor for versatility. The PTO, bucket, front end loader, and all the other utililties are what you need. Be sure to get an all-wheel drive though.
BTW: tracks are becoming obsolete at least in military vehicles. Tracks are high maintenance and easily damaged. New innovations in tires and compounds with the flexibility of tire pressure changes on site are allowing wheels to be used where only tracks went before. "Bullet-proof" tires----to a point. Look for wheeled tanks, APC's, etc.... Tankers traditionally got barely a day of MTBR (mean time between repair).
However: tracks do have less of a footprint in soggy terrain and maneuver better on hills. We'll see. 8)

[Tillaway]

Excavator... Wet soft ground the skidder or tractor will make a mess or at the least cause more compaction leading to slower tree growth.  The excavator could also be equiped with a heel rack and grapple, you can load logs, hoe chuck, and put on a yarder package to cable log the steepest ground.  You have the skidder, tractor already cover with the small dozer.  Anymore on coastal forests excavators replace most forest machines since they are much more versatile.  They build better road, load logs, and can be equiped with processor heads to fell and buck.  Excavators are an almost unmatched tool carrier.  The dozer could also assist the excavator as an yarder by being a good tail hold if you rig it up.    

[slowzuki]

Ok in the east, an escavator doesn't fit in the same price bracket with the other 2 by a long shot!

They don't use regular escavators much for woods work here as they get stuck in swamps too badly.

The tractors would be my first choice, with a winch and correct set of implements.  A frame mounted backhoe would be a valuable tool.

 I don't know what John Deere build but Kubota makes an L48 which is a small TLB with removable frame mounted hoe.  The loader is much stronger than a tractor and it has a 3 point hitch and PTO that can be used when the hoe is unmounted.  The whole thing is beefed a bit for constuction work.

Ken

[Shamus]

Thanks guys, good advice.
     I was originally convinced that a 4x4 tractor in the 40-70 hp range w. loader and backhoe was the way to go, a pto being so versatile. But overall the property seems too severe to allow a tractor to be used safely and to reach all nooks and crannies (even with a winch). Plus I am dealing with some fairly big trees, most in the 30-60" diameter range. I would like to think that a tractor would be the next-in-line piece of the puzzle. It would be great around the millsite and for picking up firewood w trailer, moving lumber, sawdust, slabs, etc.
     logbutcher - scottish actually
     Tillaway - I like your thinking, especially with the yarder concept. With a winch the excavator seems very versatile. What would be the minimum size to be thinking of? Too bad steel tracked vehicles are so hard on the roads  :(

     So far no one seems to like the skidder concept. But they do make wee ones, don't they? It seems like a grapple skidder w winch would be great for short logs, and decking wood at the mill. But not much help with the roadwork and ditching...

[J_T]

Yep one them JD skidders works good .Had one once cut skid plates off bottom of blade you would be suprised what it will do. Made a creek crossing once backed skidder off in creek winched it stright up the other bank not smart but it worked. ;D

[Tillaway]

30" to 60" wood the small skidder is not going to work too well unless its all favorable to the landing.  A friend is trying to skid some big logs in the size range you are cutting with a smallish Deere Skidder.  Lets say it been interesting for him.  

Coastal BC a excavator would be the ticket.  You can pile the slash in front of your excavator while hoe chucking and, that way in greatly reduces compaction and minimizes site disturbance.  Also the excavators do a superior job of slash piling.  In fact excavator piling is required now on most lands since it does a much better job than a dozer, clean piles piled high and tight.  You get a much better burn with far less dirt in the piles and much less site disturbance.  Also you are able to rip say vine maple out, shake out the dirt and mash it into the pile.

Overall you you see far fewer skidders being used in western Washington and Oregon.  Hoe chucking is replacing them as far more cost effecient, and much easier on the land.  From the results I have seen post harvest, this technic is superior to the other ground based logging methods with the exception of maybe CTL in thinning operations.  Its almost getting to be required now in the area I work.

The loggers here are using the excavators in the 100,000 lbs. range as dedicated shovel loggers.  If you are in the used market get the biggest you can afford.  It will be more versatile in the future.  I don't expect you will be in the market for a machine that big but most log loaders you will find used in your area would do a decent job for you.  The guys running the big machines here do allot of shovel logging (hoe chucking).  Thier production rates are impressive to say the least.

[DKinWA]

I haven't been checking in much lately, but I saw this thread and thought I'd chime in.  I'm not a logger as some of you know, but Tillaway is right on with the excavator idea.  My neighbor uses a 200 hitachi with hydraulic thumb and swaps back and forth between a heel rack and bucket.  He even has a brush rake (50 or 60") for piling slash when he gets done.  With the hydraulic quick tach, he can switch between the bucket and rake in seconds.  The heel rack takes a bit longer since hoses and a few other things need to be hooked up.  It's hard to say what size machine you'd need, but around here I see everything from 40,000 - 100,000 pound machines in use.

One other thought, these machines are expensive to buy and operate.  Any chance you could rent for awhile and build some capital for purchasing a machine in decent shape?  I know $40,000 won't buy much here and I've been looking for some time.  FWIW, I don't really care to turn wrenches on anything more than routine maintenance.  I prefer to be operating the machine and makin' money  8)

[Patty]

We bought an excavator last year, in just the way you suggested. Rented it for several months to see if we liked it, then put all the rent money towards the purchase price. The thumb will go on it next week. As a tool it is great, very versitle as Tillway & DK mentioned. Ours is certainly not as large as what you are suggesting, our is only a 38,000, but we've found it very useful for our needs. We also have the tractor with the skidder, but we found we need a blade on the front of the tractor to be more efficient in pushing dirt and trees around. The forks and the bucket are pretty limited in their abilities, in fact we've already sprung the loader, and are looking to have to replace it.  >:(

[woodmills1]

Talk him into one of these.

http://www.tjtoday.com/ProductItem.phtml?art=95

[Shamus]

woodmills be reasonable!  That machine is a tad out of reach pricewise.:

    Maybe I can talk him into trading the family cow for the toy knuckleboom loader. Then I can bury it, water it, and watch it grow overnight. When it sprouts I can drive it over the rainbow where I will steal the tree that grows golden cones from the sleeping Weyerhauser giant. ;D ;D ;D

[Ron Scott]

It's hard to find the "single" piece of equipment that will" do all tasks" efficiently and effectively. It often takes more than one piece of equipment. Check other operations similar to yours in the area if any. What are they using and what are their recommendations?

As mentioned, it's often good to rent or lease pieces of equipment to see what might work best for you before you purchase.

One also needs to decide how productive they want to be and in what time frames to recover costs. There is a big difference between "hobby"logging and 'productive" logging as to what type of equipment is best.

There are small "light on the land" type units available. A look through the Timber Harvesting and Equipment and other Threads might give some ideas.

[Kevin]

I really like the Forcat 2000 but it's too much money for the amount of logging I do.



http://www.radinter.com/radtech/anglais/berfor/1berfor.html

[Scott]

 For that type of terrian I'd go with a excavator. The heel grapple and throng tower/ yarder kit mentioned earlier would be a good idea. Most excavators used in your area for that type of work seem to be 30 tonne (Cat 330, LinkBelt 4300, Deere 892, etc) I would think you could get away with a smaller machine maybe a 20 tonne (deere 690, 200). A  excavator that size with triple grouser shoes shouldn't rip your roads up much either. A winch for your dozer will probably be handy to have too.

http://www.jewellmfg.com/logging.htm

[woodmills1]

I watched an excavator on a job I worked yesterday.  Just amazing, stumps and rocks went this way and that.  Uneven terrain was instantly reconfigured.  After a few hours the place was unrecognizable.  He really liked my forwarder trailer and tractor for tree work though.

[Ianab]

Yeah.. if you are in steep terrain and can only afford one piece of equipment.. it's got the be an excavator. You can form tracks, move logs, make crossings, dig yourself out of swamps....
It's not as good as any one specialised piece of equipment for some jobs.. but it's versatility makes up for that. Like if you need to drag logs any distance, not such a good option, but then you can build some decent tracks so you can drag out logs with a tractor and arch?
On the farm we tried to hire a 16 or 20 ton digger for a couple of days each year, repair tracks and crossings, push over trees, move logs, drain swamps, drive fence posts.
If I had the $$$ it would be my next toy ;)

Ian