Osage Orange Timber Frame tips wanted

[raysondesign]

Hi, We're New Here!  Wanting to find tips for Building a Timber Frame home using native Osage Orange, Hedge Apple, whatever you want to call it.  Very hard strong wood, and from the limited experience I have, works best when "green".  We have experience with cutting it for firewood - burns really hot - and for fence posts.  What would be the best saw for cutting this into timbers?  Portable Sawmill or Chainsaw-mill?  Does anyone know of any specific resources for using Hedge?  I'm looking at attending a week-long workshop in timberframing?  I'm really not wanting to do this with hand tools - Hedge is just too hard for that I think.

Background:  I'm a Reg. Architect with a little engineering training and 20 years experience in home design and some experience with commercial design & construction.  We have family members with "weekender / handyman" experience - lots of tools for regular frame construction, roofing, etc.  

TIA :-/

[Jim_Rogers]

Welcome, and you've started down a road you'll find very interesting, and fun.
That's timber framing and the Forestry Forum.

What week course are you thinking about taking?

Jim Rogers

[raysondesign]

Well, I've been a member of the Timber Framers Guild for a while, but I've never gone to any of their functions yet.  I'm considering the Cowee or the Goshen Week long things.  I was going to go to the Arkansas Botanic Gardens raising, but family obligations interrupted.  My DH and I have been planning on doing "something" for about 15 (or 22) years now.  We're not actually settled on what we want to do exactly - so I'm sure not cutting trees yet!  If we do cut and build our own frame from on-site wood, it'll need to include Osage Orange/Hedge, maybe some Mulberry, Cedar, and maybe Elm and Silver Maple if they're worth using for anything.  I'm having trouble finding any difinitive information about using the Osage Orange.

[JimVA]

I have to defer to others on the timber framing aspects of Osage Orange but you're right on about the toughness of this wood. I've built several bows from seasoned staves (using mostly hand tools) as well as other smaller projects like turkey calls and flyrod handles. When dry, it is rock hard and dulls my bandsaw blades something fierce. It also checks badly and has tendencies to twist and propeller when drying. On the plus side, it's durable and decays about as slow as lead.

One thing I might add, if you have straight, relatively clear (knot-free) logs available, there is a good market for them as bow staves. A stave 4" X 70" will probably sell for >$50. On the other hand, I'd love to have access to enough osage to build a timber frame cabin. The link below belongs to a fellow in GA who sells wood for bow building. I think you'll find he knows as much about working with osage as anyone out there. Good luck to you.

http://www.murraygaskins.com/abw.html

[Greg]

Well, I've been a member of the Timber Framers Guild for a while, but I've never gone to any of their functions yet.  I'm considering the Cowee or the Goshen Week long things.  I was going to go to the Arkansas Botanic Gardens raising, but family obligations interrupted.  My DH and I have been planning on doing "something" for about 15 (or 22) years now.  We're not actually settled on what we want to do exactly - so I'm sure not cutting trees yet!  If we do cut and build our own frame from on-site wood, it'll need to include Osage Orange/Hedge, maybe some Mulberry, Cedar, and maybe Elm and Silver Maple if they're worth using for anything.  I'm having trouble finding any difinitive information about using the Osage Orange.

My two cents, FWIW...

First thing, go to Goshen for a week. Very cheap way to learn.They use almost exclusively white pine. Very patience teachers. Good place to get your feet wet.

Second, when you have a decent collection of tools, know how to use them and understand the concept of square rule, attend a Guild workshop. These projects can be pretty intense, IMO, esp. for a beginner. (I don't like being rushed!)

Last, I'd suggest building a small structure first using beams provided by a mill. White pine is very forgiving and stable (though structurally weak compared to most). Using your own trees on your first project is a nice concept, but I think this can unneccesarily complicate things for you.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

Greg

[Jim_Rogers]

 What would be the best saw for cutting this into timbers?  Portable Sawmill or Chainsaw-mill?  Does anyone know of any specific resources for using Hedge?  I'm looking at attending a week-long workshop in timber framing?  I'm really not wanting to do this with hand tools - Hedge is just too hard for that I think. :-/

First of all if you don't want to cut joints using hand tools then don't even consider using a chain saw mill to make timbers.

After your trees are felled, and the logs are stacked call a portable mill to come in and make beams for you, if you use your own trees.

If you don't want to use hand tools to cut joints then buy power tools. A 16" skil saw will run you about $600. A chain mortiser will run $1500 or more. You can get a hand held band saw for cutting shapes for around $1800 or so.
Other wise choose a different wood as suggested, and start with a small project.
I personally haven't had any experience with the type of wood you are intending to use, so I can't advise you about that.
I would try and find out some information about it strengths and properties before spending any time or money making timbers. :P If it wouldn't pass code or quality then don't use it.

Good luck,
Jim Rogers.

[Minnesota_boy]

After your trees are felled, and the logs are stacked call a portable mill to come in and make beams for you, if you use your own trees.

Good idea, wrong order.  I'd prefer the customer to call me first to see if I can do it in a reasonable amount of time or to schedule a time that I can come cut. If you cut the logs first around here, you could be waiting 6 months to get a mill if you can find one at all.

[raysondesign]

Thanks for the replys - especially the link to Murray Gaskins.  Now I know why Bodark is Osage Orange is Hedge - and that a Hedge Apple is really just a huge Mulberry.  Don't think I'm gonna try a HA cobbler, though!
Let me clarify the handtools remark though.  I DO want to use power tools to cut it up into timbers, then I could use handtools for some of the joinery, etc.  I just don't want to try to go the way of "never using any power tool, not even a chainsaw to cut down the tree" that I read a book on recently.  Using an adze and drawknife to turn a Hedge Tree into a usable timber does not sound like fun at all.  Cutting the joints is another matter, IMHO.  Actually, I've been reading about Cruck? framing the last couple of days.  I don't know how "finished" I could get that to look.  My plan is to do a bird house first, then work up to a doghouse, then a playhouse for the kids, then a 200 sf "office".  The Architect side of me has to do a Model first.  Being a true American Heinz 57, I have a lot of conflicting heritage to confuse me.  The red neck tool gal / busy mom / Scotch herritage won't let me waste time making something that's not useful.  The Cherokee in me says you don't cut down a tree until you're ready to use it.  Then there's the Daniel Boone part that says - wow, lets just make a bow instead and go hunt coyottes!

Point taken about finding the mill first:  I'm not sure how many are just sitting around out here on the "Great Plains" or how far they're willing to haul one.  

Oh, and did I mention that my DH bought a trailer load of cedar? timbers from a sale a few years back?  They're from 16 to 32' long and from 6x8 to 14x16 in size.  We can't even figure out how to roll over the largest ones.  They're also pretty checked and have a slight twist to them, that he didn't notice.  They're not quite as bad as a Twizzler's candy, but you get the idea.  They are destined to become the frame for the "Garage" part of the new house, or a barn, or something, maybe where we will camp while we do whatever we're going to do to the "real house".  DH wants to try to recut them to get them squared up and into a manageable size.  Or he wants to cut them up and use them as the column part of the frame.  I can't bear to cut a 32' timber into 2 12' prices and discard the rest, even if it is a twisted mess.  That's when the Irish & Dutch flare up.

So for right now, I'm reading everything I can get my hands on or download.

Thanks again for being here.

[Squirrell_Boy]

Hi Raysondesign! Timber framing with Osage that would be cool, but difficult. The nearest reference of a somewhat similar wood, Black Locust, is from one of Jack Sobon's books. Both are heavy, hard, have very good decay resistance
and are quite difficult to work with hand tools once they dry out some. I would imagine it would be difficult to find long, relatively straight trees to work also. I think you could easily find pieces to make some very strong and beautiful braces. It would make great sills due to it being one of if not the most decay resistant woods in temperate North America; if you can find long straight logs. I haven't seen too many long, straight ones. Cruck framing is really cool and a great use of less than perfect material, but requires a whole different set of skills from square rule method. Once again Jack Sobon is a great reference for this, aren't too many other people who have done Cruckframing that i'm aware of. I really like how Jack Sobon makes use of a variety of different woods in his building, his structures are very organic and interesting. Lots of natural curves.

[Larry]

Point taken about finding the mill first:  I'm not sure how many are just sitting around out here on the "Great Plains" or how far they're willing to haul one.

Lot more mills around here than you may think.  I sent an IM with the names of couple better ones.  Call WM or TK for more names.

[Jim_Rogers]

My suggestion to fell and stack and then call a sawyer was intended to be a timetable of events. Just a suggested method of converting trees to timbers.
I too like to be there at the site before the trees are felled to look everything over and plan a good spot for stacking the logs. Calling and arranging a sawyer visit to the site can prevent a lot of mistakes.
If your on hand timbers have some mild twist to them, you could still use them as long as you cut your joinery to a straight and level or plumb line. This will take some careful planning and proper cutting of the joints.
If you intend to re-saw the large ones into smaller ones, in size not length, and you are going to use them in any frame, make sure to box the heart of the timbers. What this means is you shouldn't take a 14"x 16" and cut it into four 7x8's. You should or could cut off boards or planks for use as roof deck or siding on your way to a smaller timber in the center of the 14"x16".
Your plan to start small and work your way up is good. Have fun and post some photos of your projects as you complete them.
Continue reading and learning and have fun.
Jim Rogers

[durendal1@gmail.com]

Did you ever end up doing the timber framing with Osage??

[kantuckid]

If this thread catches someone's eye, I have built some small furniture crafts and several large Appalachian, turned style rocking chairs with osage orange wood. It's not a species that lends itself to timber framing, as very difficult to come up with logs long enough to make parts for a building with much size to it. 
All of my wood came from a sawmill once located near Perry, KS, sawn by a man who specialized in that tree for livestock trailer flooring. He sawed some green logs for me and allowed me the run of his lumber piles to pick & choose at will. None was sawed for timber framing for sure, but I can assure you that there were VERY FEW beams or boards that had that potential. 6-7' is a longish piece off of that tree. A few longer but not much more than that.
While its very strong and hard, it's also often full of defects. It is a wood that darkens with exposure to light and air to a fairly dark brown color over time, any finish will only slow down the inevitable move from that yellow to golden honey color to dark brown. It chips easily in spite of strength. Very tough on planer blades. The notion of a chainsaw mill is not something I'd lean towards. If you had a beam sawed from osage orange you best have lots of help to lift it! 
Given my age it was the common fence post wood on KS farms in eastern ~ third of the state & across fly over land states where it grows for a good part of my younger years until steel then PT posts caught on. Be a lucky find to locate an old headgerow what with longer trunks and not been dozed down for no-till farming as they were mostly removed some years back. Most any farmer there had a pile of osage post wood in line posts and corner post sizes. One of my living room lamps is turned from a Shawnee Co, KS corner post. The species when polished has an opalescence that reflects light similar to a mans ring- Tiger-eye gemstone. I've also turned rolling pins and ladies bracelets from osage orange.