How large is the BioMass market and are any of you selling into it?

[SwampDonkey]

Canada is energy independent and we don't have ethanol in our gas. Your largest petrol supplier is to the north, not in the middle east. Although, without the middle east as well we'd have to build more refineries up here. When oil prices dropped, new refineries that were planned to be built over here got dropped. But, meanwhile 1 or 2 mega projects got build over in the desert. It's a lot cheaper to extract it there. ;)

[StephenRice]

Here in the U.S., our addiction to everything "cheap" has undercut our own economy until we have gotten into the mess that we are in now.  I shudder at the idea of getting into a war with China.  We already purchase almost all of our steel from them now.  The few remaining steel mills that we have here in the U.S. cannot come close to handling the production we need.  Even close to 90% of our nails come from China now.  Bicycles from China that are sold at Walmart are cheaper now than they were when I was a boy.  We have shipped our productivity overseas and are letting a generation of production workers that were not afraid of a little hard work to disappear into history while we sell our souls to the WTO for the cheap prices that it affords us today with little or no forethought towards tomorrow.  The same principles that apply to our factories and industries also applies to our (U.S.'s) attitudes towards investing money in alternative energies.  It sounds good touted from a political pulpit, but in real life, getting the money to do so is like pulling jaw teeth from an angry lion.

[Gary_C]

The only demand for ethanol is as an octane booster or fuel extender in gasoline.  Guess who foots that bill?  50¢/gal subsidy from the government.  Even with the subsidy, there are ethanol plants in the Midwest that have been abandoned.  When oil was at $140/bbl, it was economical.  Oil is now around $75/bbl.  The economics went out a long time ago.

When the subsidy is gone, so is the market.  When you look at the economics, all those plants are using grant money.  I wonder how many would get built without the grant money.

Ron I realize you have a bias against ethanol, but the realities of the ethanol market are a little different than what you describe. Ethanol is in demand as an oxygenate in gasoline to reduce air polution, as the primary ingredient in E-85, as an immediately available renewable energy source, and to reduce our dependency on imported oil. And the economics of these reasons did not go out a long time ago as you indicated.

And the cause of the shutdown ethanol plants was due to an accelerated building program triggered by the subsidy and also by transportation problems in getting ethanol to markets. The majority of the producing plants are in the Midwest and most of the markets are on the East and West Coasts plus there are no pipelines available for transport of ethanol. And of course the oil companies do everything they can to disrupt the transportation and marketing of ethanol because it lessens their grip on energy supplies.

And as for the future of ethanol plants without the subsidy, the one ethanol plant closest to me was built before the subsidy and has been very profitable for the farmer/investors in all these economic times and will no doubt be viable in the future.

[Ron Wenrich]

Its not a bias, its more of the economics that I'm looking at.  In a free market, ethanol will have to compete with the other fuels.  Its used in the E-85 gas, and it also gets lower mileage.  Cost/btu is cheaper with oil.  When the economics change, then ethanol becomes more viable.

Right now, there is no infrastructure to move ethanol.  You can't simply shove it into a pipeline and transport it.  It picks up too many impurities and the quality suffers.  You need dedicated pipelines, or transport it by rail or truck.  So far, there is one ethanol pipe line in Florida. 

But, this discussion started out being focused more on biomass, not corn ethanol.  There are a grand total 5 plants that are either built or are being built.  With all the timber resources in the East, South, and West, you would think a lot more would be in the works. 

[Randy88]

I'm not sure your comparing apples to apples, StephenRice what you see is what the public wants today and thats dependance on renewable energy and not foreign oil and your comparing the us to other markets, thats nice in theory but the reason why china and all the other countries are importing goods to the us is because they can make them cheaper in the first place, now if you'd like to work for $10 per week and that would include your whole family in the deal as free labor and virtually no taxes on anything and no emmisions or laws to abilde by as far as workers comp, liability issues, legal issues, or basically anything then hey we'd be exporting goods instead of importing them, as for ethanol in foreign countires and their energy independance then you need to look at what it cost them there for that energy, now if you know of several miillion people who'd love to pay about twice for their energy needs and have no complaints then it would be full steam ahead but we americans want our cake and to be able to eat it too.   We want renewable energy and total energy independance and it should be cheaper than what we have now, maybe in the upcoming future when technology catches up with the current demand it will be but the bottom line is right now its not as cheap and we want cheap or the same price as we are paying or less not more.    

I grow corn and beans and love the idea of using it for our needs and to fuel vehicles but what I'm seeing is all the corn for ethanol is a conversion material between natural gas and gasoline, the spread of 1.3 units of corn into gasoline vs. 1 of natural gas isn't efficient enough to make it into the future very far, now throw into the mix the electricity used and its a wash but it is a way to convert our products into something we can use and is safer for the enviroment, now the cellulosic ethanol thing where the conversion ratio is better has a tremendous potential for the future and I personally think that will take the place of the current ethanol grain senerio but its not there yet for large scale operations and the profitability side as of yet, its coming but not perfected yet.    If it does it takes the profitability side of the conversion from about 300 gallons of ethanol per acre of land to around 1000 gallons per acre of land with switchgrass and other feedstocks rather than corn, which is a great advantage from where I'm sitting since it makes better use of diversity and also lowers soil erosion and the costs of imputs and other things the downside is the transportation issues, those increase considerably since your now hauling about three to four acres of corn per trip and with the cellulosic ethanol your making about one load or less per acre in other forms than grain, so theres that arguement as well.    The upside to the change towards the cellulosic thing would be to level the playing field so to speak and open up oppertunities for young farmers again, I don't know of too many farmers who will go from planting and harvesting corn and beans at the rate of one crop per year and doing it with large scale combines and semi's with the capacity to handle several hundred acres per day going to havesting several cuttings per year and getting it dried and hauled or chopped and hauled to an ethanol plant, either they have to gear up considerably in size and scope of their operations or downsize to what they can handle and there will agian be more farmers doing farming on a smaller scale with more diversity again in agriculture.   But the bottom line is the system needs to be more efficient or else someone is going to subsidize the costs until it can be selfsufficient.    Lets take wind energy for example, right now the economics are not there to make it practicle on an individual basis, large scale yes, but not if you want to do it on your own house and make it self sufficient, in my state any excess energy that goes back into the grid you don't get paid the same price as you currently pay for the electricity the electriic companies charge, so the electric companies make money off you both ways and you pay all the costs to install?    

As for biomass in my area right now it would be great if you could find some idiot to deliver it for free basically like they are trying to get done but when all the costs are figured in and everyone makes a profit its not real feasable to do, now buring the garbage thing, I'd be all for it, but someones gonna figure the costs, now with garbage they use the dumping fees to offset the costs, so if they gave it away its cheaper for the one giving it than to haul it to a landfill and they pay the trucking anyway so its a win win deal, now if every logger or landowner out there had to clean up everything every year on every job and pay to have it hauled away and a disposal fee, you'd see more bio plants being built than you could ever imagine because your comparing apples to apples, but since the waste left behind is free and can rot and nobody has to clean it up and its good for the forest floor and adds nutrients and all the other advantages theres no way to make it compete vs garbage.   Now if the governement passed a law to eliminate landfills altogether and eveything had to be recycled every town everywhere would put in facilities to process and burn waste as a fuel source.  Its just like junk tires, they passed a law deeming recycling of them and the recyclers charge for pickup and its a done deal, you have no choice but to pay, its the law, end of discussion and its against the law to burn them and so you pay for the disposal.    Other countries have different costs and laws and also different fuel prices, the last time I was in canada gas was higher priced not cheaper than here, same goes for holland and germany and most other countries, theres a lot to consider when comparing here to there and most times it boils down to who pays and how much, if you put a manditiory 2 dollar tax on all fuels nationwide and that went towards the cost of renewables and research and development and mandatedad a law where 90% of the energy consumed in the us was from renewables then you'd have a complete different scenerio than what you've got today, now if you were to run for the white house and pass the law, you'd ether be the hero or shot dead take your pick.    Until economics and profitability equalize in the market place the current system is what we have and where we are at.

Its great to be thinking of alternative energy and thinking sparks ideas and inventions and those spark further development and alternatives but it al takes time, as they say science isn't instant, I agree totally cleaner is better and renewable is definatiely the way to go, I'd back any law stating no foreign oil ever came into this country and everthing was from renewable sources but I also realize I'd pay more for almost everything  I currently use and I'd be willing to do that but most americans wouldn't.     Now toss into the mix that most would have to go without some niceitys they currently have and downsize their energy consumption and its not a problem but reality is slightly different, that works great but the other guy can downsize not me, someone else can live without but I'm gonna use as much or more, thats our philosophy now other countries have different ideas and philosophies and you need to understand how they think and act before comparing them to us, most ony see the good and not what they had to give up to get the good, most times its money, but not always.

[barbender]

Northern MN has a lot of talk about biomass energy plants, but I don't see any being built. : In Grand Rapids, UPM Blandin in partnership with Minnesota Power has had a Cogen plant in operation for many years, they burn their wood waste to produce electricity for the mill. They buy a fair amount from other producers as well. (chips, bark, etc.) There is also a cogen plant up in Virginia MN that buys a lot of biomass, that one is pretty reliant on subsidies I think. At any rate, the biomass is touted like the thing that is going to save our logging industry, but I don't see it happening. Our timber markets are getting very limited up here, losing the three Ainsworth OSB mills was a huge blow, and also the Trusjoist plant in Deerwood.  It takes a good sized outfit to be able to afford the equipment to make chips too, a small outfit can't afford a $300,000 chipper. We need some OSB mills again, the Ainsworth sites were all sold with a clause stating they cant produce OSB again. :( Then they are purchased by outfits with government backing, (with an eye towards bio-energy) I think they should have let them sit and rot until either either Ainsworth needed money bad enough to sell them no strings attached or fire them back up for board production.

[MaineLogger]

I was recently watching some YouTube videos of several forwarder type machines that were designed to gather, bunch and bale biomass (tree limbs, foliage, tops,etc) into bales for the purpose of selling as biomass fuel ( I guess for large boilers?). It made me wonder how large the market was and if any of our members were selling into it. If the market was there it seems like a great idea. There's certainly a large amount of material left over after most logging jobs to supply the demand.

Curious what you're seeing out there.....

Hey LOGDOG,I've seen these machines too.I can't imagine how that setup would be efficient enough to make money?I assume they haul out these light bundles and load them on a truck and haul them to a biomass buyer and sell it by the ton.I can see you would never get enough tons on the forwarder or the truck to make anything.
Most outfits up here, ourselves included haul out whole tree with grapples and delimb in the yard.While we are processing wood with the crane we pile the tops, limbs and small wood and when we have enough chip wood we back the chipper in and chip.Not much extra effort or fuel goes into this.Our investment was a chipper and vans,not bad.We can easily get 100,000 on the trucks too.
In Maine all paper mills burn chips some saw mills and we have several power plants that burn it too.

[Ron Scott]

There are some photos of such and operation in the
Timber Harvesting and Equipment Thread.

[SwampDonkey]

as for ethanol in foreign countires and their energy independance then you need to look at what it cost them there for that energy, now if you know of several miillion people who'd love to pay about twice for their energy needs and have no complaints then it would be full steam ahead but we americans want our cake and to be able to eat it too.  

The extra cost in Canada versus the US isn't in production, it's in taxation upon consumption and royalties to the governments and first nations (that portion is debatable). Because of our system of governance everyone is entitled to a share. But, the actual production side is probably cheaper because we are at the source of most of it. I can't see any exceptions to that. You can at first glance bring up tar sands, but where are your tars sands to compare the costs? Otherwise it would be like comparing running water from a  spring house to digging diamonds in the arctic. ;)

[LOGDOG]

Would I be correct in thinking that the users of Biomass would be subject to Obamas "Carbon Tax"? As energy needs go I think for the U.S.A. the answer in large part is Natural Gas. We have so much of the stuff it's insane. From 2008 forward all the major shale plays came on the scene hot and heavy and now we've got more than we know what to do with, thus the low price of $4.00 or less per mcf these days. It's easy enough to transport using pipelines. Could provide a lot of work too building infrastructure to support it.

I realize that Biomass has a job to do on the forest floor as well, and an important one at that. Sometimes I guess we tend to forget that those simple processes of letting the organic matter break down on the forest floor and stabilize soils to prevent erosion can be as important in the grand scheme as carting it off somewhere to create energy. One thing is for sure, you can't use natural gas to fertilize the forest floor and stabilize soil to prevent erosion.

All that said, I still like watching those YouTube videos and seeing those forwarders scoop the stuff up and bundle it. Can't figure out how you'd pay for a machine that probably costs $250K to $500K selling a product that appears to be thin on the compensation side for the loggers. Always enjoy hearing all the perspectives of the Forum members.  

Just stumbled on this new BioFuel product called "KIOR" and some commentary about a company opening 5 BioFuel plants in Mississippi.
http://www.midsouthforestry.org/

[fishpharmer]

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45685.msg657470.html#msg657470

[SwampDonkey]

Canadian Biomass Magazine

[Bobus2003]

The owner of the local sawmills is setting up plans to build 3 Co-Gen Plants.. One at each of his mills.. He will use them to Power his sawmills, then sell the excess to the Grid.. Plans are to use the Chips, Bark, and Scrap from the milling process to feed the boilers, plus use tops and POL wood that would generally just get burned in large piles in the woods.. Talk is his small plant will require 80-100 Truck loads of fuel a day

[barbender]

I think a lot of those baler/forwarders get paid to do the job, rather than from the biomass they produce. Fuel reduction type work. If you were just following behind other operations cleaning up the bio and trying to sell it for a profit, I don't think it would be a long term venture

[okmulch]

They had one of the John Deere balers out here in Oklahoma, baling  green cedar trees that had just been cut. I talked to the the Deere salesman and he said a company in Tulsa was testing these bales for a gasification plant.  We let the cedar dry before we grind it in to mulch and then ship it, the salesman argued that his way would be more cost effective and the bales could be moved out of the field and stacked along roads to dry and then transported to the facility. By baling the cedar it will take a whole lot longer to dry then leaving it lay in the field like we do and then harvesting the cedar. I have seen cedars stacked into piles and the the outside trees will dry but it takes a long time for the trees in the middle of the stacks to dry.

We produce year round and his main selling point for the baler is the bales can be moved when you can not get into the fields. I can see his point in some regions but for here in Oklahoma there is enough cedar to cut and leave lay to dry and then harvest instead of transporting water and moving bales multiple times.

[Randy88]

Logdog, the natural gas thing might not be as plentifull as you'd think, these ethanol plants comsume major amounts of natural gas, we have several on line and comsuming a lot of it, my local and closest one consumes more natural gas in 24 hours than a city of 50,000 consumes in 30 days, its just unreal, they had a gas line of 18 inches and want another 12 inch line to feed it, one not too far away has an enitre 36 inch main directly into it and they want a larger one due to increased demand, thats a major transmission line that feeds an entire state or several states and thats only one plant.   We did some work around a pipeline a couple of years back and needed a supervisor onsite while the work was done and he was telling the natural gas system is maxed out currently and they need additional lines and bigger ones to bring gas into the state and even region to meet the demand and they didn't know if the supply side could even support the additional demand, he went onto to tell me that on cold days cities are starved for gas now and loose pressure to and have all kinds of problems. 

When the first ethanol plant went online they didn't have a gas meter in the world large enough to meter the gas, no other consumer or plant ever had a need for one that large so they gave up and just opened the valve and then went to manufacuter the meter to even compute the usage whcih took about four months, when they did get one to meter the gas it was unbelievable as to the consumption of natural gas and since then the smalest plant going online is many times larger than the first one.    The latest one around me to go online that consumes an entire 36 inch main feed an entire region and several states and now its only feeding one ethanol plant, all the consumers in several states and many hundreds of thousands of homes and business's don't use as much as one ethanol plant consumes and thats 24/7, they basically piped one entire pipeline into one plant and it goes and feeds nothing else anywhere and now that plant wants to expand and needs more gas lines to feed it.

The pipeline personel are telling me the current system is not efficient enough to sustain itself into the future for very long, when people start to go without heat in the winter due to the consumption of gas to feed the plants things will change and its not far off.   They told me the gas companies don't have the infactructure to support bigger mains and maintain the supply to the current ones as well, its not physically possible to get it all done and not the time to do it, they couldn't gear up and put in major lines and pumpover stations and all that in years time it would take decades if it was possible at all, the other problem is that during the summer months they used to pump gas from the supply to underground storage elsewhere and now the ethanol plants consume gas year round and so much of it they can't get any into storage.   

Swamp donkey, its makes no difference where the costs are located and how, its just the statement that every country does things differently and have different ways to compute things and the end result is gas is higher priced in different areas and you need to look at the entire system before comparing one to another, just because one country is making it work doesn't mean another can make it work and have it cost effective there.    Most foreign countries that make alternative energy work on a large scale have a higher cost for that energy, weather it be from taxes or labor or facilites or whatever it is the end result is thngs usually cost more than here, if another country was using all renewable fuels and not imorting any oil and was selling the end product for less than we pay here, everyone everywhere would be doing it and the large oil companies would go out of business.

Logdog, the bio thing, is basically taking the cheapest part of the tree and using the highest priced equipment to process that product into something that basically doesn't pay much above break even at best so most feel why do it and supply the chips.   The logging and lumber industry is geared towards the value side of logging and take the valuable part of the tree and its also the cheapest part to harvest in terms of costs per ton or board foot or however you want to figure it and bio is the opposite, it takes large dollars to porcess a product that isn't worth much in the first place and the margins are so small most feel why even take the risk so someone else can beneift from it and its not the one doing the work and having the investment.     All the landowners jumped on the idea of bio and thinking they would make money on a junk product that nobody else would pay for for any purpose and it doesn't even pay the costs of the processing and hauling let alone a profit for the guy doing it and they the owner thinks theres something in it for him as well, not gong to happen.    Its about like the porpetuall motion machine thats been discussed for centuries where you get more energy out of it than is used to make it so its  a net gain in energy, as of yet its just a myth, science hasn't come up with the solution to that problem as of yet and bios about the same, by the time you figure all the costs of fuel and equipment to process it and fuel and equipment to haul it by the time it makes it to the door on the consumer[cogen plants or heating facilites] its about the same cost as other energy sources so they have very little savings unless they can find a source of a cheaper supply and someone willing to do it for nothing or take for example the garbage thing, pay to have it dropped or or free when dropped off then it works out great.   I feel instead of landfills all cities should have to recycle or burn their garbage and transfer it into a heat or energy source by law but thats just one opinion and maybe thats because I have a landfill not far from me and I see all the stuff going into it everyday that makes for a bias, if it can decompose it can be burned as a fuel source in my opinion and got some good out of it instead of just piled higher and deeper and pollute the enviroment for decades or centuries to come by buring it or dumping it off shore into water or whatever other means they have to get rid of it.   

[SwampDonkey]

My point is that that gasoline and diesel down in the Boston area (60 % of it) is coming from Saint John, NB. I'm paying $0.97 a litre up here beside the plant and your paying $0.74 a litre at your pump. Same stuff, same cost of production, same source. Somebody is subsidizing the shipping of it out of country, I think I am.

[Rocky_Ranger]

$0.97/liter; how much is that a gallon?  We're paying 2.99/gallon for diesel here in eastern Arizona, paid less in Colorado last weekend by about a dime a gallon.  I wish somebody would figure out biofuels but I don't see it yet either.  The answer is there - I saw the other night about closing down the last conventional light bulb factory, all new bulbs, except specialty ones, must now be the "cfl" jobs.  Maybe in five years we will no longer have to import petrol, just heavy weight and specialty lubricants...........  All out gas and diesel will come from biomass, and at $0.75/gallon!

[snowstorm]

My point is that that gasoline and diesel down in the Boston area (60 % of it) is coming from Saint John, NB. I'm paying $0.97 a litre up here beside the plant and your paying $0.74 a litre at your pump. Same stuff, same cost of production, same source. Somebody is subsidizing the shipping of it out of country, I think I am.

irving.....your taxes are higher? in maine fuel taxes are about .50 a gallon. had fuel delivered last week it was 2.87.....for a change its less then pump price....most are around 3.00

[nas]

Rocky ranger  3.8 litres per gallon.  $.97x3.8=$3.69/gal

[Rocky_Ranger]

$3.69/gal, Crap - I thought we were high...........  I got a new 6.7 turbo diesel but it's pretty good on fuel.  Gets 22 - 23 mpg on the Interstate and 19 - 20 in town.  Has that exhaust drier thing in it though, too.  Hadn't had to fill it up yet.

[DoubleD]

Here i paid $ 6.63/gal as of friday  : 

[SwampDonkey]

Well, I'll tell ya precisely how it's calculated.

regular self serve          $0.5352/litre before tax
whole sale margin is     $0.06/litre max
========================
                                   $0.5952/litre
taxes (trans/consum)  $0.3113/litre
========================
                                   $0.9065/litre
retail margin                 $0.05/litre max
sales tax on retail         $0.0065/litre
========================
                                   $0.9630/litre
delivery                        $0.025/litre max on mainland NB $0.06/litre on Grand Manan Is.
sales tax on delivery     $0.003/litre
========================
maximum selling price  $0.991/litre

We pay $1.25/US gallon in taxes

Snowstorm, I hate to break it to you but it's been around that price at the pump in Houlton, Maine for the last month or two or more. It was that even in Northern MI last month.