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Help with wide band maintenance

Started by shenandoahsawmill, May 24, 2016, 01:20:42 PM

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shenandoahsawmill

I am using 5" wide double cut, swadge tooth bands and have come down to my last sharp saw which I will use this weekend. I have been getting by with a jockey grinder that I made for quite a while now but it is time to tackle some serious maintenance on my collection of blades. Along with the jockey grinder, that I have been using for touchup, I have a hand swage, hand shaper and a quality automatic grinder (that came with my mill) but I am new to all of this equipment and would like to learn the basics. I have a very basic understanding of the pieces of equipment and have been practicing on a couple of scrap saws. Fortunately everything on the equipment was set up and adjusted prior to me buying my mill. I still have some basic questions (for the wide band folks out there) before I get into my better saws though. So I would like to verify the sequence of maintenance;
First-Stretching (about every five sharpenings), I need to buy a stretcher eventually.
Second-Swaging,
Third-Shaping,
Fourth-Sharpening the face of the tooth. 
Some additional questions- Is it necessary to grind all of the old swadge off of the teeth before re swaging the sawblade or can I swage over top of the swaging that exists?
Where can I find a good book on wide band maintenace? 
Would anyone with (wide band experience) be willing to travel to Winchester Va. to help me out if I cover your costs? Or I could pack everything up and travel to see your setup if you maintain your own wide bands? Thanks for any help. Gary

5quarter

I'g be interested to see some replies...I don't recall seeing this topic discussed here in detail. Perhaps member Cutting Edge has a few pointers and would weigh in?
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

ozarkgem

How about a pic of your saw. How many HP are you using? Better yet, a video!
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

shenandoahsawmill

I have a few pics in my gallery. The mill is powered by a 4 cy Isusu diesel that is rated at 57 HP or thereabouts. Some day I will get ambitious and post a video but too many project right now. Gary

4x4American

If you ever make it up this way I'll get you introduced to the saw filer at the big hardwood mill up the road, he seems to like to teach people and talk about what he does.  Another thing he was doing in the saw shop (that I didn't see you mention) last time I was there was flattening the blades.  They are running 40' or 60' (can't remember) 6" or 8" swage blades and he showed me the tool they use to do it with..I would call it a swager lol
Boy, back in my day..

shenandoahsawmill

Thanks for the offer to visit and meet your wide band guy 4x4American . I am retiring in two weeks and plan a northern trip across the country in July and August to dodge the dog days with a trip to Glacier NP then up to BC. Will have hang glider and dual sport bike along for some fun. Might be a possibility to head due north from here then out west.   

4x4American

I have his number somewhere if you want it PM me
Boy, back in my day..

ozarkgem

why do wide bands have to be stretched? what is the difference between swaging or setting the teeth?
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

shenandoahsawmill

Not certain about this but I think stretching a wide band is jut like hammering a circular blade. It equalizes the stresses in a blade and helps it to track better and saw straighter. The swage is accomplishing the same thing as setting a tooth. It creates a slightly wider kerf (at the tip and face) of the tooth than the saw blade itself, so that the saw will go through the cut and the blade will not rub in the cut and heat up.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Both wide bands and larger circle saws are not flat when stationary.  Rather they are curved, but this curve flattens as the band speed increases.  In fact, each saw is tensioned, or hammered, leveled, or stretched, to a specific speed, which must be known in advance.  To help, the curved straight edge (well, it is almost a straight-straight-edge, but it actually has a small curve to it) is available and it is curved for a specific rpm which will be stamped on the curved edge.

There is nothing wrong with using a hand swage, but people that have to sharpen a lot of saws will use an automatic swage and also an automatic leveler.  Equally important is that the teeth after swaging stick out equal amounts on each side of the blade.  Getting them all the same is called side-dressing.  If there is variation on one edge, then the saw will leave rough scratches on the lumber.  If one edge is different than the other edge, the saw will pull or dive to the side with the smaller protrusion.

One suggestion is to have one blade sharpened by a good saw shop or a good sawmiller.  Then you will know how the blade should behave.  Of course, this perfect blade will be the one that hits a rock or nail...just happens that way.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

longtime lurker

I used to work for a mob that had a 6" band resaw, single sided band. They had a big ammeter - bout the size guage I'd expect to see in a nuclear reactor, you could read it from 6 foot away - to indicate power draw. By knowing power draw you could tell when the blade was loosing its edge and change it out before it got dead blunt: blunt bands run hotter and require far more tensioning.

They used to sharpen and set in house, then send them off to a shop after two runs to be done properly. Depends on how far you'd have to shift them to a full shop, but it might be cheaper to buy it done and run a sawmill then do the job yourself.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Glenn Ohman

Wish I was more help, but Bandsaws: wide blade and narrow blade types by Chandler Jones should have some useful information. You should be able to find it via inter-library loan.

Glenn

Magicman

Hello Glenn Ohman and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dleavitt

Hi, Im new to the forum but at one time I was a wide band saw filer for heavy timber cutting. Bandsaws typically get swedged and shaped after a few grindings provided they are wood dull not dull from metallic or other Debris such as mudd, stones etc. the swage used by a filer uses a cam to draw steel from the bottom of the tooth then shapes the side clearence angles with another tool ( shaper) the profile grinder (a machine with cams and self feeding head) then regrinds the face of the tooth and maintains the proper gullet pattern. Wider bandsaws 4" and up likely are tensioned or stretched wider in the center than the front and rear to allow a balance of surface dimension when the teeth are in the cut. In a single cut saw the back edge will likely be stretched around 1/64 in every 4 ft longer than the front to allow for a higher feed rate and equilibrem with the tooth edge. The "tension" acts as a reserve so all this stretching can occur. Saws also need leveling or hammering periodically so they will lay flat on the wheels and so the filer can properly read the tension in the saw. Probably clear as mud but I figured I'd give it a shot!

plowboyswr

Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

Bradm

Quote from: shenandoahsawmill on May 24, 2016, 01:20:42 PM
... I have a hand swage, hand shaper and a quality automatic grinder (that came with my mill) but I am new to all of this equipment and would like to learn the basics. I have a very basic understanding of the pieces of equipment and have been practicing on a couple of scrap saws.

You will also want to get a 5.5 - 6" long gauge (14-12 ga steel thick - yes this makes a difference) with one truly straight edge (less than .0005" variance) on one side and a proper radius (see Gene's post) for your RPM.  Being as you're using a double cut band, also get a long gauge between 48" to 60" (same straight edge variance of .0005" as earlier) to verify that both sets of cutting teeth are the same height.

Assuming that you're going to do your own bench work, you will also need a flat anvil made for band saw benching and a cross-face hammer (around 1lb) in addition to the stretcher roll.

Quote
I still have some basic questions (for the wide band folks out there) before I get into my better saws though. So I would like to verify the sequence of maintenance;
First-Stretching (about every five sharpenings), I need to buy a stretcher eventually.
Second-Swaging,
Third-Shaping,
Fourth-Sharpening the face of the tooth.

Order of operations that I got taught:
1) Clean band.  You'd be surprised how many people don't do this.
2) Inspect for cracks.  Weld cracks, grind top flush, anneal weld, grind bottom flush, anneal again.
3) Grind face and gullet to ensure height on teeth is even. This isn't needed all the time if the same process is used every sharpening.
4a) Swage teeth.  Depending on setup this can be done at the same time as 4b.
4b) Shape teeth.
5) Bench the band.  This is the hardest part of the whole job.  Easy enough concept to learn and a lifetime to master.  Like Tim Cook from Cook's Saw says about narrow bands - flatness is critical (odds are you will do this with the hammer and anvil).
6) Grind until desired kerf is achieved.
7) Flip band and repeat #6 for 2nd side.

Quote
Some additional questions- Is it necessary to grind all of the old swadge off of the teeth before re swaging the sawblade or can I swage over top of the swaging that exists?

You can leave it.  Actually you need to leave it.  You will run the risk of breaking off tips if you try to swage the full kerf in one shot.

QuoteWhere can I find a good book on wide band maintenace?

Not sure if I'm allowed to say the name of the company that printed the books that I have. 
 
QuoteWould anyone with (wide band experience) be willing to travel to Winchester Va. to help me out if I cover your costs? Or I could pack everything up and travel to see your setup if you maintain your own wide bands? Thanks for any help. Gary

Large mills and some well known saw companies will sometimes host filing demos and workshops.  If you can get into a few of these workshops you will not regret the experience.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

There are two saw filers associations...I used to belong to the Southeastern Sawfilers Educational Assn.  There is also the Southern Sawfilers Association.  Join one or the other...probably SE.  They have meetings and tours.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

svart ole

Many of the extension services used to put on saw filing training sessions.  They did in Minnesota 45 years ago but I would think you would be hard pressed to find anything like that now days. The best way to learn is the way I did. Have someone who knows how teach you how to do it. I would say there is no short course on this subject, it takes time to get the feel of it. You are going to have to have the right tools (good ones that are able to do the work, not junk). If you want to swage, shape and sharpen then send your saws out to be leveled and tensioned I think you could do that with out too much training. The leveling and tenisioning is a bit more complex and would take time and effort to learn and a fair investment in tooling.

If you want to get a better grip on what you are looking at there are two books you need to locate and READ. The author is Phillip S Quelch. One is Sawmill Feeds and Speeds and the other is Armstrong Saw Filer's Handbook. I got mine from Armstrong or maybe it was Pacific Hoe years ago and may be you still could.
My wife said I collect junk, I told her I am a amateur industrial archaeologist just trying to save valuable artifacts.

shenandoahsawmill

I would like to thank everyone for taking time to share your information here on this incredible forum. With your expertice and guidance, I think I can get through the challenges of wide band maintenance and at least keep my mill running and sawing the logs that I have been collecting and expand my customer base. I also did some networking in my area and found a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy that used to sharpen wide bands. After knocking on all of those doors, a door opened to the guy who actually ran the shop and did the sharpening. He also was very generous with his time and expertice and came over to look at my sharpening equipment to give me some very helpful tips. When I get everything set up and running smoothly, I will take some pics and post. Again, thanks for everything. Gary

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

svart ole

What I have found over the years that there is always a old sawmill man out there somewhere close by that will be happy to help perpetuate the trade by helping
passing on what they know. Happy to hear you found a mentor, treat him well and learn everything you can.
My wife said I collect junk, I told her I am a amateur industrial archaeologist just trying to save valuable artifacts.

dgdrls

That is great news,  I love to hear of stories like this,

D

Bradm

Quote from: shenandoahsawmill on June 08, 2016, 08:21:49 AM
After knocking on all of those doors, a door opened to the guy who actually ran the shop and did the sharpening. He also was very generous with his time and expertice and came over to look at my sharpening equipment to give me some very helpful tips. When I get everything set up and running smoothly, I will take some pics and post.

Learn all you can and pass the information on.  I can count on one hand, and have fingers left over, the number of saw filers within a 3 hour radius of me - and only 1 is under 65 years old.

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