Different rate for ERC?

[NCDiesel]

I was researching rates, and came across two different posts from two different people (POSTON and MagicMan I think) that charge hourly for ERC even though they ordinarily charge by the board foot.  They did not mention why in the post.

I have never sawn ERC and was curious why.   Is it difficult?   Because log sizes are normally small?   Just curious .

Thanks in advance!

[Magicman]

Yes, it's hourly rate for me sawing ERC. 

Since the logs are generally fluted, may have ingrown bark, and often contain rot inside, it is easy to spend time sawing and and not have any or very little measurable lumber.  Also, customers often want the widest boards possible so measuring 7½, 4¼, and 8¾ inch wide boards become problematic.  Then there are the different thicknesses and the customer may decide that he wants a mantel out of the center of the log after you have it set up for something else.

None of the above affects my hourly rate charges.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Magic is correct. In addition to what he has said, Most of the Cedar logs I get in have to have the knots and small limbs chain sawed off of them.
Most have to be sawn to length since they were logged out of the woods by machinery and brought straight to the mill. All my time adds up.

[Cedarman]

There is a reason the margin (difference in price per board foot in the log and price per board foot of good ERC lumber) is so much larger than most other species.

[drobertson]

there several ways to look at it.  There may be nubs to trim, there may be fluted logs, and they may be small.
They may be purchased, or custom sawn.  If they are bought, knock off for the excessive nubs, scale accordingly to the flutes and know you limits on the small end.  They saw fast if they are slicked off.  A pain if you have to deal with the unattended nubs.  Know what it takes for at least a 4x4, and don't discount the slabs, they will sell. They last a long time when banded.  Custom sawing must be discussed up front.  Flutes mean in grown bark which means loose and separating boards at sometime.  Most folks will go for it, some will find out later.  Time can be made on ERC, there will be waste as any other wood, as mentioned, the value is in the finish product and availability of it.    david

[LeeB]

I have been known to saw them 2 at a time.

[Larry]

I agree with the others in that ERC lumber production is slower than other species.

ERC does have some redeeming qualities.  I usually don't have as many flitches to edge.  Slabs and lumber are lighter to handle (important for us older guys).  I saw 4/4 ERC thinner usually at the 1" and a lot of times even thinner so I get more boards out of a log.  It also saws a lot faster than the rest, but the hard little knots still dull the band.

[shelbycharger400]

I've noticed in the past, if you leave the knots on for mantles and bench stock, it's a lot harder cutting through that knot that changed grain direction. Also that bark really loves to hold the sand

[pineywoods]

I've noticed in the past, if you leave the knots on for mantles and bench stock, it's a lot harder cutting through that knot that changed grain direction. Also that bark really loves to hold the sand

Yeah, that bark can be a pain. Comes off in long strings and plugs up my sawdust blower..

[Magicman]

As badly as I dislike sawing ERC, I still love it.  It smells just like money.

[Cedarman]

As magicman says, ERC, money, money, money. :D :D :D

[Farmerjw]

May I please interrupt and ask, "what does ERC mean"?   ???

[Magicman]

Eastern Red Cedar

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Eastern Red Cedar

Easy Ready Cash

[mesquite buckeye]

Re: fluting and defect in ERC. Fluting appears to be genetically controlled, the main selective benefit being resistance to debarking and subsequent death by animals like buck whitetails or buffalo, or for trees with a longer memory, giant ground sloths, mammoths and mastodons. If you manage your cedar stands, the fluted trees can be culled out early in the rotation, resulting in more perfections (as in: It's a perfection! (border spanglish)).

I suspect that rot and defect result from a combination of susceptible individuals combined with conditions favorable for the development of the fungus. I think management can help here too. Kill every tree with a conk on it and prune and thin the stand to open it up for more air, thus lower humidity and a less favorble environment for the fungus. ;D

[Chuck White]

As a general rule, any Cedar means extra handling, which equals time!

[paulT]

I am enjoying the ERC subject. I just took delivery today of this.

 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I wish something like that would pull up in my yard. Pretty good Paul!

[Farmerjw]

Thank you for educating me folks.  Paul, that load would be a lifetime of pen blanks, bowl blanks and whatever else I could think of!!

[Cedarman]

Paul, I hope you have clamps on your loader.  A load like that is a bear to unload without fork clamps.  We have had 150 tons come in in the last few days and expect that much more in a few days.  Even with clamps, still takes 45 minutes to unload.

Mesquite,  I think environmental or soil conditions can have a big effect on rot in cedar.  There is an area about 1 1/2 miles wide and 6 miles long where 1/2 the trees have rot.  It is not the speckled rot sprinkled through the log, but a white ring, sometimes 2 or 3 smaller white rings that form when the tree didn't form heartwood at the proper time.  Those white rings can rot out completely leaving a tree within a tree.  I have racked my brain trying to figure out what cause these trees to do this.  I am thinking that the soil is poorly drained as the cause.  ERC hates wet feet.

[mesquite buckeye]

My guess would be something environmental that year, perhaps combined with soil conditions. Do you know the year of the ring, and if so I would check the weather records for that year to see if something correlates, like a super cold, wet, or drought year. Also, what is that area like as far as soil type and depth, hardpans, etc.? ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

One more thought. Can you see which trees have the defect before they are cut? If so, the fact that only half have the defect is the basis for selecting the good ones to leave during a thinning. :P

[Cedarman]

Best thing to do on those sites is a clear cut and let hardwoods that are already growing take over.  The white rings are sometimes 3 to 6 years wide.  Sometimes there are double and triple rings.  Also the wood that does convert to heartwood is light red rather than a darker red.  I haven't been into that area for quite some time.  The next time some cedar comes from that area I will do a count to see if trees started growing at the same time and if the white rings are at the same time.  Could be a weather thing.  Also, I am thinking a grazing and weather thing combined as the different woods were fenced and most likely were depression era pastures.

[mesquite buckeye]

Really interesting. I'm sure part of it is a genetic component. Do you know how deep the soil is there? It would be really interesting to compare the area of heavy defect with the SCS county soils maps.

[drobertson]

this is most interesting, of the last 20m I've sawn, there has been a blend of near perfect cedar mixed with the fluty, with some rot on the bigger ones.  When I asked about this the loggers said they all came from one track, pretty much the same terrain.  I have always thought that birds actually plant the cedar, so could it be more of a genetic disorder?   david

[ancjr]

My very inexperienced, unscientific and anecdotal observations here show some pretty dramatic difference in the flora within litterally feet.  My morel patch is about 20ft wide and curves perfectly along an elevation contour line.  I have smooth bark ERC completely surrounded by included bark examples of similar age, and vice versa.  Not sure that I've seen any white ring examples.  I do know that some here have the deep, almost mahogany red, while others have a very bright pink color when fresh cut.  Haven't really made any investigation or correlation.  When it warms up and I start cutting again, I'll pay more attention.

[Magicman]

I doubt that ERC is any different from other trees in that there are slight genetic differences and also slightly different soils.  Then there is individual exposure to and resistance from diseases, fungus, and whatever else is out there to affect a tree's growth and health.  I doubt that "forming a committee and making a study" would uncover any preventative action that could monitor enough trees during their ~75 year lifespan to be useful.


 
Anyway, not all ERC or any other species for that matter that has defects is all bad.  Here is ERC that had white rings that I sawed.


 
But beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and this could be completely ugly and unacceptable to some folks.  To me it made some very nice ceiling.

[ancjr]

MM, seeing those examples, I'd have no issue using it indoors either!  :)

[Possum Creek]

I like the white and red together, with a lot of knots too. I think it gives it more character.         PC

 

[Rockn H]

  I charge by the board foot for ERC because my rate is a 1000 bf minimum to set up and saw.    In this area most people aren't going to have more than 500 bf of ERC so I come out ok.  If I started to get loads like paulT I may have to reconsider.   ;)

[paulT]

I bought that load of cedar from a logger that has been hauling it to a chipper.
Several people that don't know I have a mill have asked "what are you gonna do with all that cedar" I just tell them I'm going to build a porch swing and get a laugh. That load weighed in at 28 tons does anybody have a guess at how many board ft it could be ?  I know there's to many variables for anything but a guess.

[drobertson]

My best guess if sawn out with minimal slab waste, not counting defects, just 1" boards,  and and some (plenty) of 4x4's,  you should recover in the neighbor hood of 4000 bdft. give or take.  david

[okmulch]

 

 
This load came into dads (cedarman) the other day.  It Weighed 96000 gross. Some of it has all ready been unloaded. Numerous loads like these have been coming in over the past few weeks. He will have to tell you the footage.

[Cedarman]

Ball park figure to use for footage is 11# per board foot.  Your load should scale out at about 5000'.  Actual footage sawn could be about 5500 to 6000'.  This is gross footage sawn which includes low grade lumber with ingrown and some knots with ingrown bark.

[shelbycharger400]

Field row I'm working on,   farmer told me bout the large vairiation in soil nutrition. As measured for planting crops . Explains for the trees all different sizes,   some have very tight rings some open,   all about same spacing.   O,  and very little sapwood,   seems the bigger ones grew faster and the core wood is less dense? 

[LittleJohn]

My dad hates sawing white cedar (or locally referred to as swamp cedar); mostly because he only cuts it for me and doesn't make much $$$.  But I make it easy on him, cause all I every need is 4 quarter with preferrably one straight-ish edge.

Used to make cedar swings, lumber used for seat and back.

In regards to weather resistance, parents have a white cedar swing that is 20+ years old and only thing they ever do is reseal the posts that rest on the ground, cause they wick moisture up the end grain something horrible.

[Tom the Sawyer]

Cedarman,

Just curious, is that 11 lbs. per board foot from a reference or from personal experience?  The resources I have been using figure it at around 37 lbs. per cubic foot which would be 5-6 pounds p/bf in the log and 3 lbs. p/bf after milling.
say_what

[Cedarman]

3# per actual board foot is a good number for ERC lumber.  Dried, it will run a little less.
An 8" x 8' ERC log scales at 19' on the cedar scale, so it should weigh about 209#.
This is a rule of thumb for cedar in our area.  If trees tend to have a lot of taper, then the 11# is low.  If trees are tall, skinny with lots of red, then 11# is high.
For a big truck load of green cedar, it should be a ball park average.
Richard