Harold gave me the bug! (Andy builds a mill)

[ADfields]

Well I been thinking on this some time and today I made up my mind!!   I am gonna sell my little MSG sawmill and build a bigger badder mill from scratch.   I called a guy that has wanted my MSG and struck up a deal and I will move it to his place and set it back up for him in the morning.   Then I will go to Anchorage to get steel as the steel yard in the valley hear is Air Liquid Inc and French owned. :   The french wont get my dime! >:(  

I was gonna build a WM type like Harold but I don't want to futts around with the bearings with the cantilever head and have settled on a 2 post on a very ridged frame.   I must say that I am quite nervous in not having my mill till I get the new one made, it's like selling the wife or something. :-/   I wont have a bit of trouble building a band mill, I just don't like selling tools that I am good Friends with. :'(

I will keep y'all up on how it go's, wish me luck! 8) 8)
Andy

[Jeff]

Make sure you post your progress on one thread so we can follow it!! I know you know how to post pictures. ;)

[Fla._Deadheader]

Don'T blame me !!!!  I didn't know any better !! : :D :D :D  Good luck. ;D

[Jeff]

Deadheader I figure you will be probably be building some kind of new project soon so you get a second chance.

If we can get Andy to do this right, he can fill us in on the whole thing, almost like a diary. He could even keep a running cost on parts and materials or the deals he gets on parts.

Oh A-N-D-Y... Are ya listening?

[Fla._Deadheader]

I been thinkin about building an edger. The Corley I had with the Circle mill was so simple, I can't believe I can't produce one that would be as good. It was a 24" edger, I think. : Had a simple slide handle for different width's and an adjustable fence that worked with the fixed blade, up to 6" boards, I think?? :  It's h*ll to get old ?? ???

[ADfields]

I hear you Jeff.   I will give a full accounting of what I have in it stage by stage when it's done and a ruff count on the way.   Yup I can post pix even and will when I have something to show.   Today I got some of the steel for the tracks and bunks, just under $300 for that at new Alaska price.   Also picked up the band wheels, hubs and some other stuff for $230.   I am going with new trailer tires that are 25" tall and had them spin balanced.   Cant make up my mind on power system still.   First I'm thinking apposed 4 banger belt drive like Harold then I kick around hydraulic drive with the motor down on the frame and even good old electric pops in my head from time to time for how simple and cheep it is. ??? :   The only draw back I see to electric is I would need a DanG big genset if I wanted to go portable or if I ever move out in the woods and run my place on wind/solar like I would like some day.   I wonder how well a 10 horse 220V would pull just the band. ???   I could build a genset to pull that I think.   It's hard to find tork ratings for this small stuff and horse power just don't tell what the real power it has is. ???   I know WM sells the 25 hp but I don't know about smaller motors.

Harold, I look forward to your edger! 8)
I been thinking on a 4 side planer for some time now but want to get my hands on one that I can watch running before I set out to kill myself with flying sharp steel!
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Man, You ARE adventurous !! Either that, or, you're crazier than I am !!

  Re: yer mill drive, I had thought of a hydraulic wheel hub drive. A little pricey, but, as simple as it gets. A hydraulic flow control valve would be great for head travel. I just didn't have the dough for that kind of set-up.

[ADfields]

It will take time but it will be hydraulic and air everything but I still cant make up my mind os the drive type or the kind of motor.   Cant find a hydraulic wheelmotor fast enough right off so may belt up a plane motor, 500rpm is the fastest wheelmotor I find and looks like I would need around 900rpm or so.   It will all come together. ;)   Got to get back to my cutting and welding now, just stoped in for a bit. :
Andy

[ADfields]

Well this is what I got done before I went to Anchorage and played with a new LT70 that the WM Portland boys shipped up for the home show.   Great mill and I sure wish I had the 43 grand they want for it.   It was my first time to play with the 4 plane clamp and that thing is SWEET!! 8)   Done even know why you would need the chain turner once you got good with that clamp.
Andy


The start of the track.   It's 20' long because my shop bay is just 22' and I don't think I need more.   Has 5 bunks on 48" centers, later it will get 2 floating bunks to cut shorts.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Looks like it oughta hold a whack of logs when it's done!! :D
  Could ya lighten up a little, the pitchers, I mean??  ;D :D :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Andy, when ya get it finished, it's supposed to work sumpin like this ;D

[ADfields]

Hay harold yours is looking great. ;)

I am having a HecK of a time finding someone that knows about hydraulic motors to drive the band.   I want a motor that can give me about 20horse @ 5800rpm all day long and not cook the fluid.   Sounds simple right, well it don't to me now. :   Who is the hydraulic folks on hear?   HELP!!   I am 90% that this is the way I want to go at this point.

I have the heavy subframe all welded and found a trailer axle for $20 and springs for &10 but the old axle needs rebuilt, I do have all the new parts for it as it's the same as 2 of my other trailers.  

I have also been working on a homemade Alaskan type chainsaw mill when I get stumped on the big mill.   Thats looking like it will be a slick deal when it's done. ;)
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Well, Don'T feel pregnant !!!! Today I FRIED the DanG electronic feed motor controller.
   Thought I was ready to take this baby on the road.
    I took a chance and called Woodmizer, to see if I could buy one of their circuit boards. Nope! That's OK. Hadda try.
    SOOO, I calls the people at Leeson that makes the motor. They have a motor controller that will do just what I want. How do I hook it up to a reversing switch, I asked. Have NO idea. Call the reversing switch folks.
   SOOOO, I calls them folks. They don't know if I can use a controller hooked to their switch. It will work WITHOUT the controller. I says, I can't cut good boards with the sawhead traveling 30 MPH. Guy says, I dunno !!!!

  There are 4 different issues for hydraulic applications, available at Surplus Center. 800-488-3407. One is mostly on rotary hydraulic uses and how to apply them. $29.95

  Now, you tell me where to find a motor technician????

[Tom]

The woodmizer design uses a switch for forward and backward.   The forward goes through the logic and rheostat.  The backward bypasses all that and goes straight to the motor. Reverse is at full speed.

DanG, what do you call those switches.  My brain just went into neutral. :-/

[Fla._Deadheader]

Reversing DRUM switch.  I had a board that Minn-boy sent me. I hooked it up and found out where the bad spot was. That's why HE quit using it????

  Won't take much and I'll put a DanG hydraulic motor and controller on the mill. I KNOW that'll werk !!

[C_Miller]

   Harold,
     the machine looks good but you're standin' kinda close aincha?   ever work out anything with the remote control you were interested in?

C

[Fla._Deadheader]

C. Most woodmizer users are either riding behind the saw or chasing it. I chose to stand at the dumb end and watch it saw.   The remote never came to be. I settled on the "stationary" operator position you see in the pic.

[ADfields]

Harold it just so happens I got this real smart brother in law who is a CNC man.   He builds stuff for NASA and the Navy thats so far over my head it makes me feel real dumb. :   His best Friend is a motor man and runs Electric Rewind Inc in Phoenix so if one don't know the other would.   I will give them a call in the AM for you and see what they say.  

You know when I put the 12 volt blower on my blacksmith forge I went to Home Depot or the like and picked up a $10 110 volt in the wall dimer switch with the round knob and it works fine to this day.   It's not the same all the time and needs to be adjusted as it worms up and cools down but it works, got to watch that it don't stall with a bit of juice going to it or it will cook the brushes and armature.   The motor is a car heater fan with brushes in it.   The dimmer switch is just a rheostat I think.
Andy

[Minnesota_boy]

Hey Harold,
Just where was the bad spot on that controller board?  It used to work for weeks without a flinch, then one day it would be intermittent all day, then go back to working fine.  I just couldn't afford those intermittent days when I had a helper who would jsut stand around waiting for the controller to work again.  It's so much better with one that works when I want to and when I don't.  :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi M-boy. I will take a pic of the board. It burned a spot in one of the tracks??  I have a line on a controller. Just for comparison, do you remember what you paid for the new board?? I'm trying to see if the prices are justified, or, if I change to hydramatic?? :

[Minnesota_boy]

Since Woodmizer doesn't broadcast their parts prices, neither will I.  Check your IM for the message.

[ADfields]

Harold I am told it's not a complex thing to speed control a DC motor.   If you have a perm/mag you get the perm mag controller or if it's a SCR type motor you just use a rheostat on it.   They tell me with a DC motor you will cook it if it's slowed down more than about 60% for long so you may have a much to fast motor for what you are doing.   He explained that if you have a 100rpm gear motor and you want it to live it should not be asked to run at 40rpm or under but you would be better off with a 50rpm motor and over speed it from time to time if you need that big of a swing in rpm.   So he is saying gear the thing so when it's running under the most load for the most time it's close to the rpm it likes then over speed it a bit to return the sawhead with less load and for less time.   He tells me if you want full control from 0rpm to 100rpm that is very hard to do with DC.   Hope that helps ya out.
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Thanks, Andy. I have it reduced by 1 1/2 " pulley to 10" pulley. That's about 7 1/2:1?? The motor turns 1800, so, that makes it about 240 on the sprocket. That would be great on the return and if I reduced the motor speed just 40%, that would be 144 or nearly a crawl. I believe most of my problem is wiring up the controller to the reversing drum switch. The way the manufacturer shows it, I can't seem to make the same connections??  I am pretty good with REAL electricity, NOT electronics. I just seem to be missing something??

  Ron, I meant for you to get to me via PM. I was in a hurry posting the request.

[ADfields]

So at the 144rpm what is the feed rate?   what is the sprocket O.D. on the finle shaft?

1.5" to 10" pulleys with a 1800 rpm motor =270rpm output.
60% of 270 =162rpm not 144
Thats 170 feet per minet or around 2 mile an hour on a 4" O.D.sprocket  witch sounds fast to me for your slowest feed rate.   Remember you cook it running under 40% of its spec rpm.

127 feet/min on a 3" and 85 feet/min on a 2" and 64 on a 1-1/2"

I just got the feeling you are turning it to slow under load and cooking it.
Andy

[Minnesota_boy]

If you use a rheostat to slow a motor, it will overheat the rheostat or the motor as the voltage will be divided between the 2, but then the motor wants to draw more amperage at the lower voltage.  I think you would be able to slow the motor to a crawl without overheating if you used a pulse width modulation circuit to control it.  These work by applying full power, but for only a fraction of the time, that fraction being controlled by the pulse width modulator.  I'd try to design one but it has been too many years since I studied that type of thing.

[Fla._Deadheader]

The Pulse Width Modulator is what I have. First, the guy said I had a Series wound motor. I needed a Permanent magnet motor. I bought one. Then, I had him build a board that would handle 120 Amps and use the 80 amp PWM to run the 120 amp board. That worked for 2 hours, NOT a steady run, but, probably 75 minutes total. The cheap pot he supplied quit working, so I got a better pot. That lasted about 6 hours and that control feature quit. The pot still works, according to my ohmeter. Then the PWM board blew a mosfet and it quit working altogether. That's where it stands.?????

[Dave_Fullmer]

Harold,
I was hoping you would have that feed thing all worked out and tested by the time I got back so you could just give me a list of all the details and I would go out and purchase the stuff and make it work on mine.  Now what am I going to do? ??? ???   ;D ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi Dave. The controller for the motor is $240.00. I MAY go to hydraulic feed. I have the power for it and total would be about $300.00 including hoses. Money is tight, so, I'm sitting here trying to figure the best approach.

   I COULD sell you the 12 volt motor, and then I could get the hydraulics??

[Dave_Fullmer]

Harold,

I just might be interested.  Why don't you give me an email message at dfullmer@aeneas.net.

Dave

[D._Frederick]

Fla._,
If you are thinking about going to a hydrualic feed system, give some thought about a hydrostatic drive. One lever gives you forward and reverse plus speed. This system does not over heat the oil.
How did you make out with the smaller hoses for your log lift?

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi D. Went from 3/8th's to 1/4" and it works very well. Don't have to lift-wait-lift anymore.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Dave. The guy I got the controller from is going to repair it and work with me to get this figured out. I am buying a second unit and that will give me a spare. The first has been through h***. I will keep you informed.

[Dave_Fullmer]

Harold,
That sounds like a good solution for you.

It really surprises me about your hose size.  Obviously, I don't understand all I should about the principle.  I would have thought bigger would have been better in the application.

Dave

[Fla._Deadheader]

Dave, the pressure doesn't fully build until the load gets real heavy. Even so, a smaller hose will allow LESS oil to flow and therefore the load will move slower and not stall the motor. May not be according to Hoyle, but, works for me !!

[Mark M]

Andy are you talking about a hydraulic motor to drive the band? if so is there a certain reason you want to do that?

Mark

[Dave_Fullmer]

Harold,
I think I am beginning to see what I missed.  I think I remember you saying that your were using a Ford starter motor.  What didn't register to me was that you were stalling the motor.  I can see now why smaller hose could limit the volume of flow and prevent the motor stalling.  How did you connect the starter motor to the pump and what size pump are you using (gpm)?  I'm just curious.

I bought an 11 gpm pump from Northern.  Also bought the cylinders and tank from them.  The $900 plus was a little bit of a shock, but I'm ending up with 7 cylinders on this thing.  I have to admit that I'm going over my budget a little.

[Jason_WI]

All this talk of smoking traces off of boards and popping MOSFET's has got me interested in your problem.   ;D

What is the make and model of your DC motor?

Where did you find this motor controller? Is there a big a$$ heatsink on the FET's? There should be and maybe even a fan too to keep them cool. Are the gates of the FET's being properly driven? If they are sitting in the linear reagion for any amount of time it will generate a lot of heat and eventually smoke your H bridge.  

Links to the specs is what is needed to see if you have a mismatch of parts here. Schematics would be great if you have them for the controller.

Creating a PWM signal is the easy part. Putting that signal to an H-bridge and driving a load is a whole different ball game.

Jason

[ADfields]

Mark, what I am looking at is working inside in Alaska in the winter and still be able to go portable in the summer, set a pony pump in the corner and pipe the exhaust (via a heat exchanger) to outside.   The more I kick this around the more I think I will go electric with a big genset.   I found a guy that has 5 horse motors for 60 bucks up hear, I'm thinking a stack of 3 for the band and a 4th for the pump.   I been doing income tax stuff :P for 4 or 5 VERY long days now : and have not had time to think on the mill much let alone work on it. >:(   Got that all done and as always I just get a very small part of my money back from Sam, I think I just payed for one of the J-dam gifts we sent our Friend in Iraq.

I have 2 big fears in going all hydraulic.   First is enough constant power with heating the oil to death, and the other is price.   The price part is more that I don't want to put the money into it that it calls for and find I did it wrong and have the wrong parts payed for, been down that road and don't like the town at the end!! :   I would get way better fuel mileage from hydraulics then the gen set also.  

I'm sure open to input! ???
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Dave, I am using a 4 piston pump @3.9 GPM. I got the unit as pump, res, valve, from Surplus Center. We used it on our punch press, until we had a problem. I bought another and kept this one as a spare. It is belt driven with a variable drive pulley on the motor. New, $320.00. Find an outboard mechanic and see if you can use the tilt cylinders. They are short and when the pump goes bad, the guys here throw the whole thing in the yard for parts. Cylinders rarely go bad, just get eaten up from salt water.

  Jason, where were you when I started this project ????? :D :D :D

  I have limited info on the motor. Papers are at the shop. It is 12 volts, permanent magnet, 3/4 HP @ 58 amps. Leeson.com
  I got the controller on Ebay. I exchanged several messages with the guy, before buying.

  There is a big?? heatsink on the board with 5 fet's attached. When I use the mill, the top of the control box is laid back and the board is completely exposed to the air, no fan, YET ???

  From there, you lose me. When I got the unit, I had a starter motor driven by it. It worked for a short time. I sent it back and it was replaced with a heavier amp model (120). A board was added to be driven by the PWM and actually run the motor. It worked for about 4 hours of actual use. Then it melted a mosfet. It had 2. Tere is a controller that matches the motor, but, at $240.00 and no-one that seems to know how to make this thing reverse, I am hesitant to buy it. That's all I can tell you. Thgere may be a diagram on ebay that shows the PWM. If you want, go to (motorspeed control) and click on 80 amp PWM. I think?? I saw the diagram there??

  When I burnt the track, it was on a used WM board that was sent to me. I am NOT sure if I had it hooked up right. It MAY still be OK, if I solder some small wires to the track?? That is the only thing I can see that is burned?? :

   Andy, I think Timber Harvester is all hydraulic, BUT, they drive the blade with belts. Get their free video. You can always hook the exhaust to the outside.

[Mark M]

Hi Andy

We I'm not sure I can be of any help, but I think if you can direct drive the band with a belt it would be more efficient. As you know there is always some loss when you convert from mechanical to something else (hydraulic, electric, etc) and then back to mechanical. Most applications I am familiar with that use hydraulic drives is because of a need for speed, gear ratio, and or direction control as in the case of a hydrostatic drive. Also it works well in the case where it is difficult to attach a drive shaft or when the power source must be located remotely.

As for heating the oil, unless you are dumping across a relief valve a lot or operating wet clutches that slip on engagement (as in the case of a powershift transmission) you shouldn't build much heat. Oil circulation through a closed loop doesn't really get that hot. We have trouble with our hydraulic excavators running too cool when it's cold out. Even in the summer they only run around 140F which isn't even hot enough to get rid of condensation. You might have to use an oil cooler, which could provide heat in the winter, and you might have to use a fairly large sump (say maybe 30-50 gallons), but I don't think it will be hard to cool. Also I would recommend using a 0W20, 0W30, 5W30 synthetic oil such as Mobil 1 or one of the Petro-Canada products. This will give good oxidation resistance if it does run hot.

I think you are right about hydraulic being more efficent than electic drive, but my choice would be belt drive.

Good luck

Mark

[D._Frederick]

Fla._,
Glad that the smaller hoses solved your problem. It sounds to me that your piston pump is a veriable displacement type pump. With the smaller hose, the flow is restricted and your pump reduces the volume it will pump at a given pressure. If you had a constant volume pump like a gear pump, the hose would not have helped.

[Fla._Deadheader]

"D", you may be correct. I'm no hydraulic mechanic. It just works.

[D._Frederick]

ADFields,
A hydraulic drive to power your band requires a large displacement pump and hydraulic motor, also it takes a large diameter hose to handle the high flow rate. A hose this size is very stiff and hard to handle. If I was setting-up a hydraulic system for the rest of your mill functions, I would go with a closed loop system and use a veriable displacement pump. With this type system, you have no oil flow until a value is open. Since there is constant pressure in the system, two or more controlls can be operated at the same time. If you want to go first class for your carriage feed system, either go hydrostatic drive or a veriable frequency drive with a ac gear motor.
Using a motorgen set will allow you to saw inside and not have all the noice and exhaust of engine. It will also give a more even power to your saw blade and will not lug-down like a small engine.

[Jason_WI]

Harold,

I looked on ebay and only found one 80 amp, 12V PWM motor controller. It looked pretty whimpy for a 3/4 HP motor.

This may not be the same one that you have though as it said it was made in Yugoslavia.  ???

I think that you will need a larger controller. Something like 200 amp or so to handle the startup current. The plate rating I believe is for continuous current and the startup current for a few pulses of the PWM could be higher than the controller can provide under a load. I think this is what is killing your PWM controller boards. Although I am just speculating this, the only real way to prove it would be with a current probe and an oscilloscope.

The only other thing that may cause controller failure is if the voltage sags going to the controller under a load. With the amount of current that you are pulling from the battery you should be using 6 AWG copper stranded wire at a minimum.  Keep the wires as short as possible from the battery to the controller. Use the same size wire to the motor. Also sheck to make sure that your alternator can keep up with the demand.

Jason

[Fla._Deadheader]

Jason. That is about what the controller is that I have. Mine is 120 amp. The guy I deal with thinks that there are "spikes" returning from the motor and he thinks they have to be arrested with Varisters.

   I have #4 battery cables going to a terminal strip. From there, I use 2 #8 wires to the PWM and to the drum switch for each connection. From there I connected #4 welding cables to the motor.

  I run a 10 amp battery charger all the time on the separate battery for the motor feed only. Could it be that low voltage is causing the burn-outs??

  Really appreciate yer input. ;)

[Jason_WI]

Harold,

I took another look of the picture of the board on ebay. There is no physical way that board can supply 80 continous amps of current. There is only one thick trace on the board going to the pairs of MOSFET's and even with 2 oz copper on that one layer there is no way it can supply the rated current.

I talked to a analog engineer here at work that has experience designing PWM motor controllers and he had mentioned that it would take 1/8" thick copper buss bar 1/4" wide to supply the current that you are trying to supply to your motor. So with that one wimpy trace there is going to be a large voltage drop across it.

Also he noticed that the package size of the MOSFET's that are being used are only TO-220. He calculated with 80 amps of current and a on resistance of the device at .010 ohms the power disipation for each part would be 64 watts each. Way too much to dissipate for a TO-220 package size and for that size heatsink.

He had also mentioned that if you have voltage spikes coming back to the controller that you can snub them with a 0.1uF, 50 volt polyester capacitor attached directly across the terminals of the motor. You might be able to get one at radio shack or I can send you one via mail if needed. The varistors the vendor mentioned would do nothing to snub out the voltage spikes.

Also check to see if your battery voltage is staying anywhere from 12 to 15 volts. The lower the voltage is the more current the PWM controller has to provide to the motor to maintain the same speed setting.

Sorry I don't have good news...

Jason

[Fla._Deadheader]

Jason. What would be your guess on how much actual current is being used by the motor? 1 person can push the sawhead while it is sawing. It can't be running at half of it's rated load, with the gearing I have, or, am I figuring wrong??
  My son tried to push against the sawhead while it was cutting, and it didn't even know he was trying??

[Jason_WI]

Hmmm

With the gear ratio that you have and with the ease of pushing the saw head there should be little load on the PWM controller, say maybe 30 amps. Hard to tell with out more specs on the motor and the acutal pulling force required to move the saw head.

Do these fail under similar situations every time or is it a random poof and smoke rolls out?

I would try the cap across the motor leads. Maybe those spikes are breaking down your MOSFET's over time and then poof.

Jason

[Fla._Deadheader]

Jason. Check yer Private message

[Danny_S]

ADFields, how is the mill coming? Any new pics? Like to see your progress or is it all done and I just havent found out?

Buck

[Fla._Deadheader]

Buck, he may still be waitin for Break up to get over with?? ;D

[ADfields]

Well I have had one thing after the other (like DanG and his truck) and have very little to show off at this point.   The frame is done and it's got an axle under it so I could get it out of the shop when I lost the motor in the wifes little bronco.   I put a rebuilt 2.8L from Shucks (Checker Auto) in the bronco and have had nothing but trouble from the thing so now the shop is full till Shucks gets a 2nd 2.8L shipped up from Portland, 5 days by ship and now it's lost at the port of Anchorage. :   I will see if I can get a pic of the little I have built posted tomorrow night but mostly all I have for now is a frame and a pile of hi priced parts and no time to turn it into a saw. :'(   I should be able to get some done on it next week if Shucks gets me my motor in the morning like they say. >:(   I wish I had just rebuilt that DanG motor myself and not gone the "fast" way.>:(
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Ain't that always the way ????  Any time ya try to save a little time and $$, something always pops up and costs MORE time and $$!! :
  Hang in there, Andy. Before ya know it, there'll be a foot of snow on the ground, and you will have LOTS of time to build yer mill. ;D :D :D :D :D :D

[ADfields]

It's not much to look at for now but hear it is.



I took this pic at 11:30 pm tonight just befor I came in.   This time of year in Alaska A guy dont know when it's night! ;D
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hey, lookin good. What color ya gonna paint it??  : : :P :D :D :D

[ADfields]

Well I ain't planed that part yet. ???

[ADfields]

Well I'm back at the mill at very long last.   Went to Anchorage and got my steel today so I would not be giveing my money to the French owned (Air-Weld) steel yard 10 miles away in Wasilla.
Andy

Hear is what $489.64 will buy you at Alaska Steel in Anchorage! :   Thank god Anchorage has no tax! ;)

[Fla._Deadheader]

That included the trailer, right ??
  Whooo, that's a LOT of $$$
   Looks like 4" X 1/4" & 3" X 1/4" ??
   What's the solid round for, track ??
   Better get busy. I been thinkin, again. : : :D :D :D

[Danny_S]

Whooo!! that is expensive....here in N.B. Canada I could get that for around $250  sheesh   Good to hear you are back at it again. I got a full coat of primer on mine today. Still scrounging up bandwheel parts.. :-/

[ADfields]

Ya it was WAY over priced!!!     And no the trailer don't count!! :-/

It's
20' of 3" X 3/16" wall @ $80.66 a stick
40' of 2-1/2" X 1/4" wall @ $84.99 a stick
40' of 1-1/2" X 1-1/2" X 1/4" angle @ $31.45 a stick
60' of 1" 4060 (I think it was) cold roll @ $58.70 a stick

The 1" round in hot roll would have been 21 bucks a stick but I wanted the good carbon cold roll like W/M uses for the rollers to ride on.   I hate to buy new steel just fro the sticker shock I get every time.   Tubing is hard to come by used and so is that cold roll so I had to go the bucks on it. :

Harold what you thinking on now? :P   I'm game for near anything ya know. ;D   Well, I'd just as soon not be working on cars for a bit!!     Shucks did give me ALL the parts to put the 2nd longblock in for free, almost $300 in small stuff, oil and what not for the trouble they put me threw. :-/   Better then a kick in the teeth or a poke in the eye, right? ???
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Andy, WM claims that they use HARD rod and then make it harder. I'm guessing something close to drill rod?? I know that old WM's tracks don't show much wear from the rollers.
  Well, I have this WM type mill, AND I need something to saw this DanG hard Aus. Pine, AND the WM type head is REAL easy to remove, AND I been thinkin, Soooo, I just MIGHT build a swing blade rig, and slide it right down the tower. Wouldn't take a couple of hours, IF I had a boom rigged up on the main beam, to change it over ??
  That would give me the loader, wide bed, hyd. toeboards, log stops, power feed and a simple up-down. The scale is already on the tower leg ?? Just need to figure a GOOD set of dogs and Bob's yer uncle !!
  Seems that Kiwi Jake was lookin for a rig something like this??
   Whatcha think ??  Did I mention that I met Rube Goldberg last Monday ?? :D :D :D :D :D