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Is this correct? (Info from Nyle)

Started by WoodChucker, July 30, 2004, 09:24:41 AM

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WoodChucker

I called Nyle yesterday to order an oven for drying samples and was also going to order a scale. The sales person ask me what type of Kiln I used (Nyle L-50) and told me I didn't need either one, to just use a good moisture meter (pin type). Now I'm not saying he's wrong because I'm new to this, but it's the first time I ever heard anyone say to do it that way. He also said that some of the bigger company's use just a MM now and not the oven drying to check there samples. Are any of you doing it this way with good results? If so, what type of meter are you using? He recommended the Delmhorst R-2000 because it had a range of 6% to 60% and most of the others only read to about 30 to 40%. But I've also heard that MM's are not all that accurate above 30%, so anyway am I getting good info here and are any of you doing it this way? Thanks!

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

Den Socling

First of all, unless that oven was really, really cheap, I'd go to WalMart and get a dinky microwave with a turntable.

Nyle sells DH kilns so I don't know what the guy knew about big companies (big companies using DH are rare to me) but I can tell you that 'big' companies use moisture meters as a guide but, in most cases, they bake samples before they call a load done.

Delmhorst J2000 is cheaper than a R2000 and the J2000 works well (list is $265). And hogwash, no meter can read MC above 25-30%.

Den

Don_Lewis

More than 2/3 of Nyle's business is kilns that are over 50,000 BF and Nyle has well over 1000 kilns installed around the world that size range. I am not sure who spoke with this gentleman but he was correct, most small kiln users and many large kiln users, use only moisture meters. It is not correct that moisture meters are worthless over 30%, it is just that they are not accurate, nor do they need to be. At 54% does it matter if the lumber is really 52% or 56%? Actually, if you put 700+ BF in a L50 kiln, it will not dry too fast regardless of compressor setting. So a meter is good but one that reads in the 60% range is much more usefel.

ElectricAl

WoodChucker,

If you plan on drying from Green you'll have to weigh the samples  ;)

Dry to slow = mold
Dry to  fast = checks


A large toster oven will work too. Not as fast as a microwave, but it adds a nice aroma  ;D

Toasted Oak :D
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

WoodChucker

Den, thanks for the info on the moisture meter, Ill check it out.

Don, I left you a message next door but I'll repeat it here just so that there's no one that thinks I have a problem with the help I got from your company.

The only reason I question the info I got was because I had never heard of it before and wanted to see if anyone else does it that way. It would sure be nice if I didn't have to get a oven and scale right now, I just became a Grandfather for the second time and could use the money for other things.  ;D  

I always get great customer service when dealing with anyone that works for Nyle and I believe the person I talked with was being honest and I appreciated the fact that he was trying to save me money.

I need a good pin type moisture meter anyway so I'm going to try it and see how it works, if I'm not happy then I'll pickup an oven and scale.

Thanks ElectricAl, if I'm understanding all this the L-50 is not big enough to dry it to fast as long as I have a full load of lumber in the kiln. So I figure if I let her run on the high side it should be fine and won't have to worry about the mold. Sound right? I wonder if toasted oak smells as good as toasted almonds?  :)

Thanks everyone for all the input, I'll let ya know how it works out.

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

old3dogg

WC.
When I do an MC on a kiln charge of wood I also use a stick meter to determin if the load is dry.When I pull a kiln charge after the stick meter tells me it is "dry" I will do an oven sample just for my piece of mind.Oven samples are the truest way of finding the "true" MC of wood.

WoodChucker

Thanks old3dogg, so does your oven sample ever disagree with your meter reading and you end up letting it dry longer?

I figure I have about a month before a load will dry, and a couple of weeks before I even start. This will give me a little time to play with the meter and by the time it's ready to come out I should have the oven and scale and be able to check it. Thanks for your help!

Anyone use one of those in-line systems that you don't have to go inside the kiln to check the MC? Don't you take a few steps back each time you open the kiln doors to do all MC checks? Or is that not a big deal? Thanks!

R.T.



  
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

old3dogg

WC.
The oven samples are pretty close to the stick meter.They may be off a little but not much.
I do see a big difference in the hand held meter.

WoodChucker

old3dogg, I thought a stick meter was the same as a regular MM but I take it that it's not, hey? What the heck is a stick meter and can you give me a web page link to see one?   :-[

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

old3dogg

Sorry.Old habbits die hard.When I say stick meter I am refering to a pin meter.These are the meters you have to pound into the wood.A hand held meter you just slide across the wood.As far as a link goes I dont know of any.I would just do a search on the web.

Den Socling

Here are Delmhorst stick meters (they have pins that stick into the wood).
http://www.delmhorst.com/products_wood.html
To the right of the pins is a connector that can be attached to a selection switch (for multiple samples in a kiln) or a slide hammer to drive insulated pins.

WoodChucker

OK thanks old3dogg, guess we were talking about the same thing then, just didn't know a pin meter was the same as a stick meter. I already have the scanner type that I use for woodworking, but I need a good pen type meter for the kiln.

Den, thanks for the link. Have you ever used one of those in-line type meter systems that you don't have to go into the kiln to do your MC checks? Seems like a good idea if they work. Just curious if there's a problem with the pins ever corroding from being left in the lumber all that time? Thanks!

R.T.  
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

Den Socling

I think you are confusing terms slightly.  :D In-line systems go in line before a molder or such. Every piece going down the line goes through the meter (Wagner type). What you are asking about is a pin meter with extension wires. They work OK. Pins don't corrode. I learned a lesson a couple months ago, though. In vac kilns, at least, with very dense wood (like Red Beech), the area around the pin dries because of the penetration of the pin. The core reading looked like it was coming down because it was basically a shell reading. Don't let this confuse you. I think it's applicable to vac kilns, only.

WoodChucker

Yeah I didn't really know what they were called, just remembered seeing one in a book and thought it would be a good idea if they worked. Doesn't opening the kiln doors to do your MC checks cause any problems? It seems like it would let a lot of your hear out, no? Probably dumb questions but I'm really good at those.  ;D

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

Den Socling

You use a man door and not the main door. Sometimes it's hard on the man.  ;D There's nothing like lugging out 40 or 50 lbs of samples out of 6 or 8 120 degree kilns.

Brian_Bailey

WoodChucker,  

I've been using a Mini Ligno DX/C meter with 12' in kiln probes to moniter the mc in the sample boards when drying in my Nyle L-150 kiln.

Here's a link to Lignomat's site.http://www.lignomat.com/

I air dry my lumber first, so the over the 30% mc issue isn't an issue with me.

I use to do the cut and weigh thing. Heating the sample in the micro wave and weighing them on an Ohaus triple beam scale.
Yup, I knew the exact mc of the sample but it didn't tell me anything about the rest of the board.

I found out while drying many loads of lumber that if I was careful in selecting the right spot to put the probes in on my sample boards, I can get a fairly accurate reading that represented the average mc of that board.

After doing this many times and checking the dried boards with a pinless Wagner L-600 to see how much of a moisture variance I had in each board.
I decided for me anyways, that cutting all those little samples was a waste of good lumber that I would rather cutup as a part for a project because monitering the kiln charge with just a meter gave me acceptable results.

If you follow the drying instructions that Nyle gave you, I think that you'll be more than pleased with the results.

Just remember that most drying defects begin right after you have sawn the board. Good control of the first 2 stages of drying are critical esp. with oak.

Just my 2 cents from a partime small kiln operator  :D.


 
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

WoodChucker

I was told I didn't really need a side entrance door because of the small size of my kiln, so I didn't put one in. My main doors are two 3 footers, so I guess it won't be a big deal just using one of them to go in and out. And when your almost 400 pounds ya need a big door anyway.  ;D

This is the system I was talking about, do you think it's overkill or is it worth the investment? It's the basic unit at the bottom, not the plus one. http://www.macgregormillsystems.com/kmt.html#KILMOTROL%20BASIC

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

Den Socling

That's the Delmhorst system that I mentioned earlier. Delmhorst stick meters have a connector for a selector switch. Then you get some cable and pins with holes for banana plugs. The cable runs from the selection switch through the kiln wall to the MC samples. This stuff adds $300 - $400 to the cost of the J2000.

WoodChucker

Brian, I almost missed your post. Glad I didn't. Thanks for all the good info and the link. Sounds like you have a pretty neat way of doing things and found a way to make them work for you. I'm all for doing things that takes the least amount of steps.  ;D

Thanks again Den,
yeah it's not cheap but it sure would save a few steps. Just might have to check it out, :)

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

Don_Lewis

Some people have made their own remote probe system and they work pretty well though the systems from Delmhorst, Lignomat or Gann, are easier to deal with. But two nails, separated the same as the pins and solidly connected with Radio Shack stuff, will give you a decent reading. Actually quite a few people do that. I would guess that only about 10-20% of people drying use sample boards. Most use moisture probes. I prefer going in the kiln and taking readings to remote probes. There are lots of things that can be checked beside a few points in the stack, such as mold, sticker stain etc. The heat loss from the opening of the door is miniscule. Most of the heat is stored in the lumber and the heat stored in the air is a tiny amount by comparison

tomtom

I have had a nyle L50 for about 7 years. Use a small pin type meter only.Have a man door, and check the load almost every day,don't be afraid to let abit of fresh air into the kiln,a lot of moisture exits with bit of heat you lose. Green load takes about a month. Air dry about 2 1/2 weeks. Green to 20% seems to be the time that is most critical for checking staining etc. Most times you can run compressor 100%. Compressor starts at 80deg. I like to increase temp using supplementry heater. to about 105 deg then let heat pump gradually increase temp to 115  120 .I am talking oak or cherry as an example. When load is below 7deg I usually reduce duty cycle to zero, shut off heat and leave fans on for a couple of days ,thisseems to reduce tension and equalize moisture. Load will end up at 6%. Also you can take Nyles advice as gosple. They are good to explain things , just ask. Hope this helps. Tom

WoodChucker

Den, appreciate the info about going into the kiln to check for mold and stain, I wasn't even thinking about that and I know I should have.

Tom, nice to hear from someone with an L-50 and that's having good results. What size is your kiln building and is it on a cement or wood floor? Mine is built on a slab and I'm curious now if I should treat the floor with any kind of sealer or not? I have 2" foam and a VB under it.

Also, do you notice any difference in the quality of the wood when it's been air-dried as apposed to drying from green?

And yes, I have to agree with you about the help I've received from Nyle. I've called them several times and e-mailed them with question's and always get good customer service. Great bunch of people!

Anyway, thanks for the input and if you have any pics of your setup post them, I'd sure like to see um. :)

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

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