Greetings, All!
I've been lurking on the forum here for some time, and I just decided to sign up last week. I thought I might introduce myself and my project.
My name is Darryl. My wife, four children, and I live on 57 acres of God's beautiful country in South-Central Kentucky. We've been here four years (previously in Central Illinois). We've been planning on building a house here since before we moved. I've had an interest in straw bale building for several years and have always liked timber frames and log homes. We decided on a timber frame home with a straw bale wrap. Overall, the interior size of the house (size of the frame) is 26 by 36. The frame is a 4 bent, 3 bay design. The house will be a story and a half with 9 feet to the bottom of the tie beams on the first floor. The upper floor will be 8.5 feet to the collar tie. Here's a picture of the frame as envisioned:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/frame.jpg)
The roof is 8:12 pitch. I lengthened the queen posts because I needed more head room upstairs after changing the floor plan. I had already completed several posts and the tie beams at that point. There will be 'trusses' (14" depth) set on top to allow for sufficient cellulose to be blown in. The 'trusses' will sit on a 2x4 framed wall (2' 8" height) on top of the outer girts. The tie beams are scarfed above the center posts.
Posts and beams are 8x8 oak. The girts and rafters are 6x8 oak. Floor joists and purlins (not shown) are 4x6 oak on two foot centers. The braces are also 4x6 oak.
At this point I've completed the posts, the beams, and all but three girts. I have the rafters, queen posts, braces, floor joists, and purlins to complete. Hopefully, we'll raise the frame by June.
I appreciate the knowledge and wisdom shared on this board and find encouragement in reading about and seeing what others are doing and have done.
Darryl
Nice project!
Hello Darryl,
Sounds like you're going well! Is the design completely your own, and what are your main source materials for this?
How will the straw bales sit, external, in-line or internal?
Can't quite see from the pic; are the roof slopes unform or break as for a dutch barn?
Lee
Welcome to the FF mudburn, I'm looking forward to seeing your project come together.
I lurked here nearly 5 years before signing up... Now they can't get me to shut up. :D
Welcome to the Forum! Kentucky - that's cool!
Let me know if you want any help during the raisin'!
-Thomas
Welcome Mudburn. Let me know about your raising too. I travel to Ohio occasionally. I'm just looking for an excuse to go see Thomas' mega frame. How about it Thomas? Would mind a visitor? Either of you?
Thanks for the comments everyone!
Lee,
QuoteSounds like you're going well! Is the design completely your own, and what are your main source materials for this?
The design is completely my own (with family input, of course). It's evolved over the last four years. When we thought we had the design figured out two years ago, I ordered timbers from a local Amish sawmill. I was going to use Cedars off the farm and mill them myself, but when I started figuring what I would need, I liked the strength of Oak and didn't want to use all my big cedars. The design has changed even since then, but within the confines of the beams I have (for example, it went from two stories with a basement, to one story with a basement, to one story with no basement, to 1.5 stories with no basement).
QuoteHow will the straw bales sit, external, in-line or internal?
The straw bales will be external. I'll run 2x3s we've milled on the outside of the bales on which to hang the windows. The bales will be plastered with a straw-clay mix on the inside and outside. Additionally, on the outside I'm going to run stringers every 8" in order to put on a wood siding (shingle-type). I can get oak from a nearby pallet company that is perfect for shingle siding -- 1/4" thick, 4" or 6" wide by 36" to 42" long. This can be cut to 18" lengths for wood shingles. My dad's already sided his house this way.
QuoteCan't quite see from the pic; are the roof slopes unform or break as for a dutch barn?
The rafters on the frame break as for a dutch barn, but I don't want that look on my house. Originally, the frame wasn't designed that way, but after completing a fair portion of it, we decided we wanted the room upstairs to be more usable. So, I raised the roof, but it could only be done easily in the center of the frame. So, a dutch barn. But, to make a uniform roof, I'll make or purchase some 14 inch 'trusses' that are long enough to reach from the peak to the edge of the bales (about 18 feet). These will allow me to blow in cellulose insulation in the roof (need my R-value to equal or exceed my walls). I'll frame a short wall on the outside edges of the frame to support the trusses. I don't want the straw bales to support any load, although they could (our original idea was load-bearing strawbale walls).
Thomas, I've admired your frame since I first saw it on the tfguild forum. I marvel at your ability and the complexity of what you've tackled. This is my first frame of any type. I figured that it's like a great big piece of furniture. I've taken my time and will also have a full fit up before raising. I'll be recruiting as much help as possible when the time comes, so you, Thomas, and you too, Jayson, are welcome as are others. I'll let ya'll know when it'll be (I'm aiming for Memorial Day weekend right now). I thought it was going to be last summer, but others things caused me to change that idea (good thing too because the design changed).
I'll see about posting some pics of my dad's siding on his house -- he used the culls from the pallet company -- $2 per pallet load. He probably has less than $40 in his siding, including the staples he's used to put them on. Also, I'll see if I can post a pic of my floor plan if anyone's interested.
All help and input is welcome!
Darryl
Jayson,
You are welcome to stop by if your travels bring you through here. I would appreciate meeting anyone with timber framing experience or interest, as I am still looking for opportunities to learn, and if they drive up to my front door looking to help for a day, then all the better. :)
Darryl,
Thanks for the compliment. W.r.t. your raising, I know how plans change. I was going to be living in my house by now, watching TV at this point. (I don't have a TV - because if I did, the house would be another year behind!) My project is large because I very much underestimated the magnitude of my project. I guess that's what inexperience/naivity got me. Well, if you want to visit here or need any help down there, give me a holler. I would welcome a day away from my own project. (Today I chased 3 cattle back from the highway, and worked on fence for half the day)
I love your (and your Dad's) siding idea. After fooling with this slate roof, I know your oak siding will work. (I guess your dad has the proof!) And whether it lasts 10 years or 100 years, you can't complain too much about the price! I am still looking for siding ideas myself.
-Thomas
Muddy,
do you have any renders of your house showing how it will look when finished???
would love to see them, and a floorplan, and, and....
frame looks sweet though.....
Welcome to the forum....
Jim Rogers
Thats interesting. I had considered straw bale, but the wall-depth seems to create foundation problems. You are avoiding that they load-bear, but then you must create a load bearing wall outside of them to support rafter/truss. This implies support for the posts, and a support ring outside; that seems to be a lot more foundation, or have you found another way around this?
Lee
Quote from: Griffon on February 28, 2007, 03:18:59 AM
Thats interesting. I had considered straw bale, but the wall-depth seems to create foundation problems. You are avoiding that they load-bear, but then you must create a load bearing wall outside of them to support rafter/truss. This implies support for the posts, and a support ring outside; that seems to be a lot more foundation, or have you found another way around this?
Lee
Actually, the wall outside of the bales is not load bearing. It will consist of 2x3 on 3 or 4 foot centers (I haven't decided) running vertically. These will be strapped between the bales to the timber frame. This will provide rigidity to the bales and the 2x3 framework. The 2x3 will serve to hold the stringers for my wood siding and to attach the windows to. The 'trusses' will tie into this framework, too, but the trusses will spread the load out over the timber frame and to the foundation through it.
So, that leaves me with the need to support the weight of the strawbales. I'll do that with piers probably on 6 foot centers at the outer edge of the bales. I will frame a 'floor' for the bales to sit on that attaches to the first floor level of the timber frame, transfering some of the load to the frame's foundation. On three sides, I will extend this 'floor' out about 10 feet to make a porch (still with the piers for the strawbales, though). Originally, I was going to have a concrete block wall around the perimeter of the bales, and when the time comes, I may still decide to do that.
Darryl
Thanks Darryl, that does sound relatively complex and I would need to see a plan to understand it further, but I know that straw bales make sense for a number of reasons.
I'm way back in the construction process, just prepping braces now; would you care to give me a few big t-f tips, the sort that maybe others miss stating (or has it all been said before) ?
Quote from: Griffon on March 02, 2007, 04:51:13 PM
I'm way back in the construction process, just prepping braces now; would you care to give me a few big t-f tips, the sort that maybe others miss stating (or has it all been said before) ?
Lee,
I consider myself a novice. This is my first frame. I've just approached it as being something that is doable and that doesn't require rocket science. It really is like a big piece of furniture. I've tried to consider, anticipate, and calculate the different aspects of loads and rigidity and such (same thing for furniture), but I've missed things. In fact, I've adjusted my frame again -- mainly the upper story -- because of suggestions/concerns from another timber framer. He caused me to go back and redo some of the calculations I'd done before. And you know what? I got different results this time because I used a different calculator (Don P.'s in the toolbox). So, I adjusted what needed adjusting (I think smiley_anxious). I'll have to post a new image of the frame incorporating the changes I've made (these changes were needed because I changed my original design once already, and I didn't do it quite right).
So, with the above caveat, my
big t-f tips (and they may have already been stated):
- Know that you can do it; believe in your ability. Overall the project is large and can be intimidating, but one mortise or one tenon isn't that difficult. The overall project is made up of little things that you can do.
- Seek and accept input from those more knowledgeable than you. Wisdom comes through experience, and those willing to share their wisdom can help you a lot.
- Measure twice, cut once. If you forget, it's not the end of the world. You probably can correct your error with a little creativity.
- Use tools that you like and are comfortable with. I have a Sorby 2" chisel that I bought off of Ebay. It's my favorite one to use because of its size and weight. It doubles as a slick, too. In fact, I'll reach for it before a slick.
- You don't have to have expensive tools to do the job. My frame is being completed with a 7.25" circular saw, a 2" chisel, a 1.5" chisel, a 2" slick, a 1" corner chisel, a high torque drill, a 2" self feed bit, a 1.5" self feed bit, an old cross cut saw (the one in my pic to the left), a tape measure, a builder's square, a combination square, and a hand plane. Sure, a chain mortiser would be nice, but I can't justify the expense for this project. I made a beam mover. I make mallets (and wear them out).
I don't know if these are the types of things you have in mind, but that's what I offer now. Maybe after I get this frame finished and raised, I'll have more things to add to the list.
Darryl
Welcome aboard Mudburn. Looking forward to lots of pictures and input from your project.
LOGDOG
That is purrr-fect; I'm glad to hear that the mortiser is not assumed obligatory!
In respect of design changes, something occurred to me; safety factors. Have they been standardised by the NDS? What s-f's do you incorporate into your technical characteristics Don (those tabulated - accessible with your calculators); are they correct for dry or green wood?
I have assumed Tedd Benson's s-f's as detailed in 'Building the Timber Frame House' - OK. I note that Tedd's design values derive from (in case of Douglas) the least strong green selection possible (as listed in Forestry Service manual). Don's figures are higher, ie. present Douglas as stronger ???
This seems to be one subjective loose thread in my design process.
Welcome to the forum Mudburn :)
Remember what you paid for those calcs, they're worth every penny. I hope they didn't make you downsize anything.
The application of the design values is not subjective in the codebook, NDS numbers.
First thing to keep in mind is that trees don't read the tables, keep your eyes open, misread the wood and it doesn't mean a thing.
The wet service factor. The design values I attached to the calcs are for heavy timber, 5x5 or larger, used at an in service moisture content of 19% or dryer. It can be installed green and dry in service. That covers most of our situations. There are connector adjustment factors for nails, screws, bolts, etc that go in green wood that then dries vs going into dry wood that stays dry. A big one there is if you nail to green wood use a ring or spiral shank nail.
For heavy timber used in wet service where the moisture content remains above 19%, Fb (bending), Ft(tension), Fv(shear), E(stiffness) and Emin(column stiffness) remain the same as published. Fc lowers, that is maximum allowable fiberstress in compression.To arrive at an adjusted design value multiply the base design value of Fc perp, a side loaded timber (beam) by .67. For Fc parallell (a post) multiply the base design value by .91. If you think about it the difference there makes sense, you can crush the side grain of a green beam pretty easily, it doesnt matter so much if its green or not to the end grain of a post .
Unlike 2x lumber which has several design value adjustment factors, heavy timber only has 3 possible adjustments. The wet use described above. A factor to be applied if timbers are deeper than 12" and a factor to be applied if the load is applied to the wide face, the flat use factor. So generally you just use the design values for heavy timber straight from the NDS table.
All that said, real world, green wood is far weaker than dry. If there is a beam pushing the load limits or heavily point loaded, prop it for as long as possible to let it season and gain strength in an undeflected shape.
The design values published by the NDS or any of the major grading agencies are by species or species group, and by grade. Benson is deriving his design values from the Wood Handbook, so is the NDS. The NDS numbers are recognized by the code, deriving from the Handbook is not, doesn't make it wrong if you do it right. You'll be on the same page as your engineer if you stick to the NDS numbers.
Safety Factors;
My understanding of the math is this, 95% of wood within a grade should fail at 2.1 times the published values or more. 5% may fail between the design value and the 2.1x design value. All should be at least design strength. By careful selection it is possible to pull a board out of the stack that will break at up to 8x the design value. Keeping your eyes open you can improve the structure greatly by using stronger wood where its most needed. I used some glulams not long ago that had "proof loaded" joints in the laminations. They had been stressed to 2.1x the designed load for that beam.
The textbook answer; All design values are based on the 5% exclusion limit, except E and Fc perp, which are average values.
5% exclusion limit = avg strength-(1.645 * std deviation)
To get Fb, = (5% exclusion limit)/ (1.6 load duration * 1.3 safety factor).
Design values for wood products are derived this way because the variability changes from grade to grade and product to product. This is more complex than just a safety factor but is supposedly better with a material of widely variable nature like wood. I think Benson is using a safety factor that amounts to more than the sum of all that above.
An example from a text will help.
A test of a large number of SYP 2x4's gave an average bending strength, Fb, of 9,138 psi, standard deviation was 3,205 psi.
Applying the 5% exclusion limit- 9.138 -(1.645 * 3205) = 3866 psi
Fb=5%/2.1 or 3866/2.1= 1841 psi allowable design value.
Then to loosely quote the building code " to be designed according to accepted engineering practices and/or AFPA's NDS".
Standard engineering texts help to calculate the loads. Chapter 6 of Benson's book is excellent, I appreciate the boost to sit here and thumb through it again.
The NDS tells how to apply those loads maintaining allowable stresses on the wood.
I asked the engineer who runs the test equipment at one grading agency how to non destructively check my grading of timbers. He said they proof load timbers at the third points to 2.1x the designed load. That eliminates the vaguaries of grading, it proves it with a safety margin.
Thanks Don, I am much reassured, and appreciate the effort you have gone to, to make these formulas accessible to all. The greatest area of subjectivity then, is outside of figures and calculations:
QuoteFirst thing to keep in mind is that trees don't read the tables, keep your eyes open, misread the wood and it doesn't mean a thing.
This is apt for my decision-making; graded wood is not available from the local saw-mills here, which means
its just up to me :o I have already refused some wood with large knots, so hopefully, the proprietor will respect standards for the future.
Lee
I've designed my frame with 14' 8x8 beams and 12' 8x8s in each bent. I used Benson's numbers to run all my calcs previously, and passed. I then changed my roof from plain rafters and queen posts (8:12 pitch) to the 'dutch barn' type in my image above. This was to gain headroom and useable space upstairs. However, that really focused too much load on the 14' side of the tie beam. Thankfully, someone directed my attention to this. So, I played around with the design a while, and redesigned the roof lines in order to avoid over-stressing the tie beams. Here's what I came up with:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/Bent01.jpg)
One of my other objectives in this redesign was to not have to redo what I've already done, including the posts and tie beams. In an ideal situation, the posts on the left side of this bent would be continuous to the rafters. I tried to come up with an acceptable compromise.
Don P., your calculator failed me in places that my calculations using Benson's numbers passed. I've not changed the size of the beams that failed. I changed the load on them -- I left the center bay open to the rafters. The primary area of concern was the 14' side of the tie beams when it had to support a floor on two sides (and area of ~156 sq ft), especially with a queen post focusing extra load in one point. Your calculator was worth every penny I paid for it smiley_clapping
Darryl
Darryl, I hope someone else will tell you that the braces at ground level aren't necessary ...
Its not clear to me what the ground level beams are, not sill plates? If the posts are anchored independent of these beams (straps) then the upper braces should be enough.
The upper floor-level braces also look like they'll attract some cussing in time. Have you thought of keeping your original design, but putting girts down the building centre line? This would allow the joists to span in a sense parallel to your tie-beams (in two 'floors') and the tie beams would take ONLY the weight of the QPs.
Down braces can be a good thing.
When the wind blows on the side of a building with down braces the first wall the wind hits is stiffer.
Shown in the drawing below the red braces are in compression and the blue would be in tension:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Darryl%20bent-jr.JPG)
If he is going to have some windows in this bent they could be located here:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Darryl%20bent-jr-2.JPG)
It really depends on the window locations and other spacing factors.
Down braces stop the wind force earlier then it going all the way across the bent to the other compression braces.
In the second drawing the red braces will take more compression and this may not be a good thing.
Jim Rogers
I added the braces at floor level to help stiffen the frame. One concern is that my braces are not really large (2' down and 2' over), and I won't have sips to add stiffness to the frame. I don't expect the second-floor floor-level brace shown to cause much cussing -- I've already thought about how they will affect my walls upstairs on bents 2 & 3 and have devised a way around them.
Windows. I have some large (56"x54") casement windows for the house. There will be four places with doubles and seven other singles of this size. All windows will be about 18" outside the frame on the outside edge of the strawbales. So, even if a brace is in front of the window opening, it won't be a problem (although this is an issue for only two windows).
I've played with a lot of different options that allowed me to keep my previous design (it was not the original, though). Again, I was attempting to change only that which hasn't already been completed (it's making changes partway through that cause problems and call for creativity). Girts to which floor joists attach isn't really an option because of how I designed the tie beams -- they are in a different plane than the girts.
The first floor is not a sill. The posts extend 6" below the first floor beams and will sit on piers. The posts will be strapped to these piers. I will also provide some support mid-span on the first floor beams since I can and it will help with any load issues.
Darryl
OK, I was thinking open plan for some reason, in which case stepping over the tie beams would have occasioned even more cussing than detouring a brace ;D Of course, adding braces will stiffen things up, a desirable measure given that the posts aren't continuous.
Otherwise, its an unusual design the product of creativity, and so may rightfully attract further scrutiny. If my comments cannot immediately be marked off as ignorance, you may consider I'm playing devils advocate, to help get to the heart of the matter.
The rear roof slope doesn't rattle me. At the front however, the low angled roof creates more outward thrust, for which the collar tie should help. According to the example in the red book, the tie needed to be surprisingly low in order to be effective. Therefore, is it possible that the knee brace could end up in tension (given that a strong wind isn't blowing!). If so, could the addition of a brace between post and roof member (or collar tie) be of help?
The other characteristic of low angled roofs to windward is that they may produce (dependent on overall structure dimensions) strong suction force. Make sure everything is fastened down well!
Lee
Y'know, I'm appreciating and enjoying this discussion. smiley_blue_bounce
Quote
Therefore, is it possible that the knee brace could end up in tension (given that a strong wind isn't blowing!). If so, could the addition of a brace between post and roof member (or collar tie) be of help?
To what extent does the triangle created by the roof, queen post, and tie beam act as a brace in the frame?
I've pondered on a brace from the rear post to the collar tie, and, in fact, at one point I had the collar tie lower and a brace from the post attached to it. It doesn't get in the way of window placement, but I removed it from the design -- I just haven't figured it all the way out yet. I guess it's better to have too many braces than too few.
Quote
The other characteristic of low angled roofs to windward is that they may produce (dependent on overall structure dimensions) strong suction force. Make sure everything is fastened down well!
Hmm. . . The house will actually be somewhat protected in its location. It will be against a hill in a bottom. The hill behind it is treed and rises probably 60 feet above. Across the bottom (about 75 yards) another ridge rises about 50-60 feet. Everything will be fastened down well, and I want to make sure that the design is right. I'm doing this on a budget (pay as I go) and am doing every possible part of the whole process that I can myself. The responsibility for it being right rests solely upon my shoulders. So, I appreciate all comments and shared wisdom. That's why I'm appreciating and enjoying this discussion so much!
Darryl
I wanted to share a photo of my dad's house showing the wood shingle siding he put on it. These shingles were from a local pallet company. They sell a pallet of what they call 'slabs' for $2 each. My dad has more in the s-t-a-p-l-e-s (;D I'm smiling because the staples moderators think they're having fun) than he does the siding for his house!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/dadsiding.jpg)
This is the same siding I'm planning for my house.
Someone asked about floor plan and renders. I don't have those readily available. The program I've used for floor plans doesn't export images very well. If I can make it happen, I'll share these with you.
I'll keep you updated as I progress on the frame. At this time, there's been plenty of other things competing for my time, including cabin demolition. :)
Darryl
Quote from: mudburn on March 20, 2007, 11:25:50 PM
Someone asked about floor plan and renders. I don't have those readily available. The program I've used for floor plans doesn't export images very well. If I can make it happen, I'll share these with you.
If you've got decent image editing software (Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, or the like) you can take a screen capture (PC) or screen snapshot (MAC) and then paste into a new document in your image editing software. On a PC it's [ALT]+[PrintScreen] to capture an image of the program in the foreground and just [PrintScreen] to capture the whole desktop. Depending on how your printer is installed it may simultaniously send the image to the printer so you may want it powered down to save the ink.
It's essentially the same on a MAC but I can't remember if you use the apple key or the command key to constrain it to just the client in the foreground. Either way you'll want to crop out the client borders and headers before resizing to FF dimensions.
I addition to what Raphael said if you are running XP the paint program in Accessories has the ability to save a file in jpeg format. You couldn't do it with Win98 but don't know about millennium or W2k.
Just open Paint and paste in the screen Image. Do a :
File
Save As
Change the Save as type to JPEG and save the file.
Then you can use XCAT to size the file to forum standards
Thanks, guys! I didn't know about doing a screen capture with Alt-PrintScreen. That's cool!
Okay, I can show you my floorplan now. Here's the first floor:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/floorplan01.JPG)
The frame is not represented in this image. So, you have to imagine where the posts are (at the corners, on the line from the door on the left to the wall on the right, and on 12' centers from left to right). We've played around with the design a lot. Originally, the rooms were all going to coincide with the bents/bays. As it is now, the main bathroom at the foot of the stairs straddles bent number 2. There is a mudroom and pantry on the left side -- this will be stick framed. There will also be a porch on three sides -- the left, the front, and the right sides in the plan. The large windows are 56"x54" casement windows which I purchased from a building supply in Michigan via Ebay. Also, the exterior walls are thick, representing the 18" of the strawbales.
Here's the 2nd floor:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/floorplan02.jpg)
There will be doorways to the storage under the eaves on the front of the house, I just haven't illustrated them yet.
My floorplan program doesn't allow me to create a salt box type of roof, so rendering an outside image of the house is difficult. Maybe I can do that with SketchUp one of these days.
Darryl
I thought I'd give an update. Basically, I haven't gotten as far as I had hoped I would by this point. Blame it on the weather. It's been so nice that I've been doing a lot of other things that need to be done. I haven't neglected the frame altogether, though. I started on the rafters this week.
I have some renders of the house to share. I put these together using SketchUp last night and this morning. Not perfect, but they give an idea of how it'll look from the outside (I anxiously look forward to seeing the real thing).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/houserender01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/houserender02.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/houserender04.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/houserender03.jpg)
Cool! For sure I would have to get Sketchup if I ever 'went pro' but does it run on a Mac? >:(
I beleivethere is a version for mac. It's free from google. Do a search and see.
I thought I'd share a bit of an update on my progress, in case anyone's interested.
I completed the rafters. Working with two different pitches made things interesting, but I just took my time and was as careful as possible. I had to put two of the 16' 6"x8"s on my mill and square them up a bit (just one face on one of them). I moved the timbers and organized them near the house site in order to begin the fit-up. I began the full frame fit-up last week. I hope to begin putting bents together before this week is out. I haven't chosen the raising date yet, but probably the end of July or beginning of August.
Inspired by others, I started a blog. You can view it at cedar-ridge-farm.blogspot.com (http://cedar-ridge-farm.blogspot.com). It takes time to keep it updated, which I haven't been really good at. And, I don't always think to take pictures when I should.
Darryl
We'd like some pics please. We like pics. :) 'Specially when you do the raisin. ;D
Well, beenthere, since pics are so popular, I've added some more to my gallery. Here's you go:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/braces01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/braces02.jpg)
These two photos show the pile of braces as it grew while working on them. Along with my able assistant, our 'homesteading intern' for this summer, we completed 38 braces in a couple days work. All of the braces are the same size.
Here are some photos of the completed beams/posts after we stacked them near the house site in preparation for beginning the fit-up process:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/timberstack01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/timberstack04.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/timberstack03.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/timberstack02.jpg)
Then we began the fit-up:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/fitup02.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/fitup01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/fitup03.jpg)
So far, we've completed the fitting-up process. Next we move on to putting the bents together in preparation for raising the frame. I've set Labor Day Weekend as the date for the raising. It'll happen on that Sunday and Monday. I have to complete one more beam as a replacement for one that twisted. I've worked on figuring out how to best cut the dovetail tenons and floor joist ends. Here's a pic of a sample one:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/joistsample01.jpg)
I used a portable band saw to cut the tenon and the arc on the end. I plan to have one end cut on each of the floor joists and purlins before the raising day.
Okay, one more photo, of the beetle I made to help persuade the timbers to fit together:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/beetle01.jpg)
It's made out of an end cut off of a 6x8 with a hickory shovel handle put through it with wedges to help keep it in, although it fits pretty tight without the wedges.
Okay, is that too many photos?? ;D
Darryl
mudburn
Those pics were 'fantastic'. Really enjoyed them, and marvel at the work you are getting done.
Thanks
I've been thinking about raising the frame for some time. I've bounced ideas off of others, and I thought I would ask you all for some input.
I know a crane would simplify things in many ways, but I am pursuing other methods of raising for a variety of reasons. My idea for the raising is to use 'shear legs' (a two-legged gin pole, if you will) made from a couple cedars about 30' long each. Then, I will use one or two block-and-tackle/rope hoists. The power to pull will either be human or mechanical (I don't think I can get my cow to cooperate) -- I haven't worked this out all the way yet (I know what I would prefer, but it costs money).
I would like to raise the bents completely assembled, including the rafters. Completed, they will measure 20' 10" from bottom to top. They will be raised and will stand on concrete piers, the tallest being ~3' high. Because of the design of my bents, the weakest point is where the rafters and upper posts attach to the tie beam. So, I plan on clamping a frame to the back side of the bent prior to raising each one. It will be clamped at the lower beam, the tie beam, and the rafters. I intend this frame to hold the bent rigid and to take most of the stress of the raising. My idea is to lift on the framework, not the bent itself.
Here are some renders I did in SketchUp to help illustrate what I'm describing:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/bentraise01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/bentraise02.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/bentraise03.jpg)
What are your thoughts? Any ideas or suggestions?
Thanks!
Darryl
I really like your design. I've got a southern faced parcel that would be great for that house, looking out across the mountains.. 8)
Hey mudburn its looking good 8)
I've been tilting up much smaller bents with a similar rig. I did rig it with a snatch block to the bent's frame to double our 6:1 winch up to 12:1. I figure we were tipping up about a ton, the top of the bent is about 20' but we grabbed it at about 14' up and had a 12' tall ginpole (runnin what I had). With 2 of us it was about all you wanted. I could have put more blocks in or wound around a smaller drum to increase the advantage. That is one honking heavy looking bent.
Your piers concern me for a tip up though. There's a fair amount of horizontal pull as it tips up and could overturn a tall slender pier. If you do tip them, think about bracing them good in the direction of pull. Myself I think your deep into call a crane territory :)
DonP, thanks for the response. I'm still pondering the raising. What I proposed here is one option, and I'm thinking of others. Maybe raising it all together might be asking for too much without a crane. I'm thinking about the merits of raising the frame assembled to the tie beam and then putting the rafters and posts together and raising them on top. I'm also thinking about a crane or lift assisted option, but it's less likely. I'm still interested in hearing others' thoughts, of course.
Darryl
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/Framing%20016.JPG)
Assembled the first bent today. We worked on the rafters and their associated posts yesterday. After thinking about raising the frame some more, I decided that it would be better to raise the bents assembled without the rafters. They will be assembled and raised after the main portion of each bent is raised. I will be able to use a smaller gin pole and have a safer raising this way, I believe.
Here are some more pics of our work today:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/Framing%20013.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/Framing%20028.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/Framing%20025.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/Framing%20031.JPG)
Holy cow! You've been busy. Your first bent looks awesome!
I like your idea to wait on the rafters. Once you get two or three bents up, you could drop in some floor joists and build a deck up there to work the rafters from.
I've never used a gin pole before, but however you decide to raise it, when you get that thing vertical, kick it off umpteen different ways with some 2x4's and nails! In other words, once you've got it up, don't let it come back down. It looks too nice! You should have seen all the ropes and 2x4's and tackle I had holding my first bent up. You'll never know if you have too much bracing, but you'll know if you don't! :o
Just a thought... you might be able to use a backhoe to raise those bents. Whichever way you do it, keep in mind that the bents really want to fold up like tacos until they get vertical, so be sure to brace the heck out of it, or follow through with your idea of building a lifting frame. That seems mighty clever.
Good luck.
-Thomas
Even in the heat we've been having (100 today), I'm continuing putting things together. Just over three weeks to raising day.
We've gotten three of the four bents assembled. We finished Bent 2 today. I forgot the camera, so no pics of that. But, I had the camera when we put together Bent 3 last week. Here are some photos:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/framing%20018.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/framing%20029.JPG)
As we were fitting up the rafters for Bent 3, an error I made came to light. I kind of don't like mistakes, but they happen. My roof has two different pitches (8:12 and 3:12) that meet at the peak. Well, I miscalculated the angle for the intersection on the longer of the two rafters, leaving a gap.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/framing%20006.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/framing%20002.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/framing%20009.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/framing%20007.JPG)
Maybe more than you really want to see. I'll cut some wedges to fit in the gaps. A positive thing is that the collar tie fits nicely on both ends! There've been a couple other mistakes involving brace mortises -- one was 1.5" too close and another was 1.5" too far out. I was able to rectify those situations relatively easily.
I'll keep ya'll updated!
dp
What happens if you adjust the rafter bottom to the angle on the post? It'll swing down a little, opening some at the top and probably come up some shade short. I dunno just a guess from someone who has done way worse things :)
Apart from the gap, the pitch and measurements are correct. So, if I just fill in the gap with wedges, everything else will be where it's supposed to be. Even though I wasn't happy with the error, it will work alright. And, it could've been worse, I know. If the error had been based off of a measurement on the other side of the rafter, it would've been fixable. As it is, the rafter is still the right length with the gap.
Thanks for the suggestion, though. I appreciate your help. You wanna come help raise it? :)
dp
Nice blog also by the way DP.
Hey I had the same idea of using that portable metal bandsaw for cutting birdmouths and stuff. How well is that working?.. :)
jpgreen,
Thanks for the compliment on my blog!
You asked about the portable band saw and how that's working. Well, I just started using it in earnest today on floor joist dovetail tenons and a curve from the tenon onto the joist itself. It's working pretty well. I don't know how I would cut the arc on the joist otherwise. It also allows me to cut the dovetail pretty well. It takes some getting used to in order to hold it level and to cut straight on the lines. I'm cutting my dovetail tenons a little smaller than the mortises and will use wedges to tighten them up (an idea I gleaned from Thomas-in-Kentucky).
It would be nice if the portable band saw would work for birdsmouths and stuff. There is one problem though -- almost all of them have a throat width of about 4", unless you want to spend a lot more money for a special one with a wider throat. I'm working with 4x6s, so the throat on the saw is fine for that. It wouldn't work on any of my 8x8s or 6x8s for sure.
We also got the last bent assembled yesterday. We hauled the 12' 4x6s up to the shop from the barn and started cutting the dovetail tenons today. We got 17 done -- only cutting the tenon on one end. There are 59 floor joists and 37 purlins to be cut in all.
Only 2.5 weeks until raising day! 8)
dp
??? :)
Well, the first day of the raising is over, and things went quite well. I didn't know how long it would take to get the entire frame up. We didn't get the entire frame up, but we get the main part of it erected. We'll work on getting the rafters assembled and raised tomorrow.
Here are a couple of pictures. I'll have more later after tomorrow when I have time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/raising%20day%20003.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/raising%20day%20004.JPG)
It's really something to see it standing there!
dp
8) 8) 8)
All right, that's looking good. Play safe up there, it really slows down when I leave the ground.
Outstanding.. 8) 8) 8) :)
Congratulations! 8) That looks like some serious progress.
-Thomas
Wow! It's been a great couple of days! But, I can say that the frame is raised!! 8) smiley_clapping smiley_turkey_dancing
After getting the main part of the frame up yesterday, we worked today with the intention of getting the rafters and their associated timbers raised today. We finished the second-floor floor joists and installed them. Then we assembled and raised the rafter sets on top. Here's what it looks like now:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/raising%20day%20005.jpg)
I'm going to work on getting the purlins and first-floor floor joists in by the weekend.
Darryl
Oh yeah, the thing in the middle of the house is the gin pole. It worked well for raising each bent yesterday and the inside rafter sets today. I'll be removing it after it is no longer needed (soon).
Woo-Hoo, Awesome 8) 8)
Y'all oughta be proud, I was feelin good about a little tin we got up, that's one productive weekend!
Darryl,
That looks super nice. I can't believe how fast you are moving!
Looks like you have that gin-pole-thingamabob all figured out. ;)
-Thomas
PS. Can you drop me an email? I tried your old address but it has bounced.
I achieved my goal of having all the purlins and floor joists in by Friday! 8)
So, the frame is complete! It's been quite a week. We started raising at 8:30am on Sunday, Sept. 2, 2007, and we put in the last floor joist and pegged the last brace at 12:30pm on Friday, Sept. 7, 2007. It was a lot of work, but here's what it looks like now:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15134/timber%20frame%20002.JPG)
It's incredible to see my first timber frame standing there after about two and a half years of work on the frame (not continuous work). It all went together quite well, with a few slight errors in the joinery (nothing major). The posts and beams are 8x8s, the girts and rafters are 6x8s, and the purlins and floor joists are 4x6. It's all oak except for three cedar girts, an elm girt, and a sweet gum beam in the middle of the house (it looks nice). The dimensions are 26' x 36'. There is 9' from the first floor to the bottom of the second floor beams. The pitch on the front of the house is 8:12 and 3:12 on the back. The middle bay is open to the rafters/purlins. The posts sit on 12" concrete piers with 6" to the bottom of the first floor beams. I put aluminum siding pieces under the posts as a moisture barrier. Although I haven't done it yet (I will this week), the posts will be securely connected to anchors in the piers.
I'll keep you updated on my continued work on the house. I'm planning on putting the straw bales up in the spring (it will have a straw bale wrap). I have a lot to do before then.
Darryl
Congratulations Darryl, I'm watching your project with alot of interest, it looks great. 8)
Just stumbled on the old thread and tracked down his updates on his Blog and wanted to update, the home is finished and man it looks great, after many years, no debt, and lots of labor he got it done! FYI, they moved in September of this year.
Congrats!
Just read thru this thread. Really enjoyed it.
The blog has a great write up, not many folks stay with it 10 years.
http://cedar-ridge-farm.blogspot.com/