Initial planning stages, many questions

[jimdad07]

I am in the very beginning stages of planning a frame to start cutting next year.  This would be my first one and right now I'm just trying to get ideas and direction.  Here's where I'm at at this point:
-30'x50' square rule barn with a full loft
-looking at 7 bents, still trying to decide on wether to use standard rafters or do a timber framed roof.
-10' ceilings for the first floor, was thinking of making my posts on the outside walls 16' high to give more room in the loft for a full wood shop.
-looking at 14' as my widest span for the loft floor
-here's where your opinions are needed:
  -I want to cut the posts 8"x8"
  -tie beams for the loft floor I was thinking 8"x12" as I want a full wood shop on the second floor with enough load strength to handle a lot of sticker stacked hardwood planks on one end, also was thinking of using 2" t and g as the flooring material.
-not sure what to use for rafter and purlin sizes for the roof or the sizes for my bracing.
-looking at using a combination of hemlock, white pine and hopefully white oak as my frame material depending on what I can get.

Your opinions would be appreciated.

[Jim_Rogers]

I think one of the first things you need to decide is the roof system. The rafters are going to put a lot of thrust on a tall post and plate. You may need some down "tension" braces if you don't do a supported ridge or a mid span principal purlin to support the rafters.
Tall posts can be a challenge to engineer and you should consider all options.

Jim Rogers

[witterbound]

My opinion is that you should start on a smaller frame. 

[jimdad07]

My opinion is that you should start on a smaller frame.

I don't disagree but the need is there.  I don't tend to just jump into things like this, that's why I'm going to start doing my homework now.  I've built a few post and beam buildings and pole barns along with a few houses.  I do a lot of cabinet work to boot.  Not worried about being able to make good tight fitting joints or even setting the building once it's built, my worry is making sure I design everything properly.  I have a pretty good wind load here off of the end of Lake Ontario along with snow load.  My biggest concern is what to do about the roof.

[jimdad07]

I think one of the first things you need to decide is the roof system. The rafters are going to put a lot of thrust on a tall post and plate. You may need some down "tension" braces if you don't do a supported ridge or a mid span principal purlin to support the rafters.
Tall posts can be a challenge to engineer and you should consider all options.

Jim Rogers

I was thinking along the lines of a frame that looks like an "A" if I were to go with the timber framed style vs. the rafter system with the thought that each side of the roof would maybe create an opposing force pushing against the other, maybe offset some of the thrust?  On the other hand that wouldn't do much for the force of the prevailing wind hitting the western side of the roof (the barn will be lined up North to South).  The "down tension" braces if I understand you correctly would run from the top plate beam down to the tie beams?  Out of curiosity would those joints be relying on the strength of the pegs to hold it together?  I have a feeling I'm taking it wrong but that's what an open forum with experienced members is for, to kick guys like me in the butt to the proper way of thinking.

[jimdad07]

I think one of the first things you need to decide is the roof system. The rafters are going to put a lot of thrust on a tall post and plate. You may need some down "tension" braces if you don't do a supported ridge or a mid span principal purlin to support the rafters.
Tall posts can be a challenge to engineer and you should consider all options.

Jim Rogers

Doing a little more looking around and researching, couldn't think of the proper terminology in my last reply.  What I found was the timber frame truss types and I think what I am looking for is perhaps a queen post style truss.  We restored the barn where I grew up and that barn was built with three queen post trusses, one on each gable end and one in the middle.  Those were supported by the tie beams and were pretty close to being over top of the bracing on the first level of the barn, maybe a few feet past them.  I like the design stage of any project, good to have a well thought out plan going in.  Please be patient with me I'm on a learning curve here.  Either going to come out with a nice building or one fancy pile of firewood!

[Dave Shepard]

I would find a barn that you like that is about the same size and take some measurements. A 30'x50' is a typical English frame. Three bays, four bents. I don't think 7 bents is going to be an efficient use of time or materials. Welcome to the Forum!

[jimdad07]

I would find a barn that you like that is about the same size and take some measurements. A 30'x50' is a typical English frame. Three bays, four bents. I don't think 7 bents is going to be an efficient use of time or materials. Welcome to the Forum!

Thanks for the advice.  There are a few around here, sadly a lot of them have started to cave from neglect.  I forget the strength of a timber frame that's done right.  I was thinking seven because I'm used to pole barns and post and beam buildings.  In my little 16'x24' shop I built it post and beam with a single bay but I put 4"x8" posts every 8' with a 4"x4" post every 4' o.c. in between.  I put a full length attic in with 4"x8" girts running 16' spans to support the attic floor.  She's solid for sure, overbuilt and over thought but solid.

[jimdad07]

Found a couple of barns to look at, one is pretty close by in a field all by itself on a lot for sale about a mile from my house.  Things been empty for years but is still square as can be.  It has a big gambrel roof on it.  I had considered a gambrel roof in my initial thought process but I was thinking that one would be beyond my skill set.  That's how the tall post and high top plate came to be, trying to get the max floor space out of my second floor as I can.

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

Why not try to buy that barn and move it to your property?

Just a thought...

Herb

[jimdad07]

Why not try to buy that barn and move it to your property?

We tried, no go.  I've had this thought in my head for a long time just chewing on it like a dog on a bone.  I know I could build a post and beam barn a lot easier and I also know a building this size is a large undertaking for a first project but for me I've thought about it too long and it's time to move to the next step.  I am a very stubborn guy when I get an idea like this and nothing will get the idea out of my head until I do it.  There is something very special about the old ways of building that is lacking in how we build today.  I enjoy the process more than anything and the learning of a new skill.
As corny as it sounds, that's why I am doing it, and I will do it.  Might take me a couple of years but I will figure a way to do it.
Like I said before, I'm not worried about making the joints right, I'm more worried about making a bad design and having a crap building.  I am working on educating myself on the process before I do it to avoid the serious mistakes.

[Jim_Rogers]

A barn/workshop with 7 bents means 6 bays. 50' / 6 = 8.33' or 8' 4". You would be better to make the frame with 6 bents and 5 bays making each bay 10'. The math and lumber would work out better. Less posts, tie beams and other sticks like braces and such.

An end bay with a heavy floor system for stacking hardwood lumber won't be a problem.

You can't just say I want 8x12 tie beams until you "run the numbers" and figure the loads intended to be held up. You may need a bigger tie beam.

Having a good design and then not doing the joints right is "the serious mistake". Joint holding strength is very important, in my opinion.

Jim Rogers

[jimdad07]

A barn/workshop with 7 bents means 6 bays. 50' / 6 = 8.33' or 8' 4". You would be better to make the frame with 6 bents and 5 bays making each bay 10'. The math and lumber would work out better. Less posts, tie beams and other sticks like braces and such.

An end bay with a heavy floor system for stacking hardwood lumber won't be a problem.

You can't just say I want 8x12 tie beams until you "run the numbers" and figure the loads intended to be held up. You may need a bigger tie beam.

Having a good design and then not doing the joints right is "the serious mistake". Joint holding strength is very important, in my opinion.

Jim Rogers

That's what I'm looking for for information.  I bit the bullet and bought the Sobon book and have been reading it through the last couple of evenings, a lot of good information for a newb to read through just for some basic information.  My planning process is to get a ball park idea on my design that includes a design for all of the joints involved and then have somebody who is experienced look it over to pick apart what needs picking.  I should have done a little more research before I started posting about it so my questions could be a little more informed.  Before I do a serious drawn up set of plans I really need to figure out what my load potentials are going to be.  I would think that the dead load of the building should be reasonably simple to plan for but the live load is going to really need some serious thought.  The other issue I need to work out is what materials I'm going to mill for the barn.  I can get white pine fairly easy around here but I am concerned about the load for the tie beams on the loft floor.  The better route I have is to buy a load of hemlock logs to mill for about $2,000.00.  My issue with that is when I build something I like to take the tree down myself so I can get an idea of what kind of shape the tree is in and decide from there how I will use it.
When I was throwing sizes out there I wasn't thinking in terms of how the posts and beams would be affected by removing material for the joinery, so a post or beam that is proper for a post and beam building with lots of metal plates that doesn't have joints cut out of them may not work for a timber frame.  I'm sure you guys get tired of people coming in and saying "I'm going to do this even though I don't know what it's about".  Trying not to be that guy but I have to start somewhere.  This is a type of building that's beyond my experience so I'll be taking it real slow, nothing will be cut or put up until I have the right information.  I really appreciate you guys piping up to explain things, glad I got that book too, it's at least a start.

[jimdad07]

Having a good design and then not doing the joints right is "the serious mistake". Joint holding strength is very important, in my opinion.

Jim Rogers

I should have explained myself a little better there, I was meaning making accurate cuts for tight fitting joinery, not the design of the joinery.  The joinery design was what I was getting at in terms of proper design, along with placement of the joints and post and beam sizes.

[witterbound]

A few more words about starting on a smaller frame.  There are a lot of twists and turns, often unanticipated, when cutting and erecting your first frame.  A big barn is a major undertaking, but will be stunning when done.  Pick a smaller frame that incorporates some of the joinery you will use in the barn.  Then spend a few weeks learning by doing.  It will make the first few bents you cut easier to cut and better looking if you get some practice first.  It will also get you miles ahead of what you can learn by reading books or asking questions here.

[Dave Shepard]

Saw ponies are the first place to start:



 

Or my favorite work station, the Dutch trestle:



  



 

[jimdad07]

A few more words about starting on a smaller frame.  There are a lot of twists and turns, often unanticipated, when cutting and erecting your first frame.  A big barn is a major undertaking, but will be stunning when done.  Pick a smaller frame that incorporates some of the joinery you will use in the barn.  Then spend a few weeks learning by doing.  It will make the first few bents you cut easier to cut and better looking if you get some practice first.  It will also get you miles ahead of what you can learn by reading books or asking questions here.

The more I read the more I agree with you.  Kicking myself right now for not building my shop as a timber frame when I built it, time was the major factor at the time.  It would have been perfect being only 16x24.  Worst part is I don't have the space for another small building right now, in a few years we will have enough room but I'm SOL right now.  My wife and I are buying the farm land around us off of her parents, we raise beef right now hence the need for a barn...on the other hand I could add on to one side of my shop.  I have enough room to take it out another 20' before property lines become an issue.

[Dave Shepard]

I just googled Clayton, NY. Are you prepared to design a roof with a 48' snow load? :D

[jimdad07]

Saw ponies are the first place to start:



 

Or my favorite work station, the Dutch trestle:



  



 

Those look great.  I like the through tenons, Dutch style.  I have good heavy saw horses but not that heavy.  I bet a tool holder would be a good addition for your chisel and what not.  I built a small forge over the winter and a rail road track anvil to start making chisels.  I have some jack hammer ends kicking around for the purpose of making chisels.  I seem to have a complex about making my own stuff, you know how much easier it would be just by the neat-o stuff? 

[Dave Shepard]

I had a piece of plywood that was the same width as the stringers. I would put my saw, square, chisels on it. Worked great. There's nothing wrong with making everything. It keeps the skills alive and gives a great appreciation for what you have accomplished.

[jimdad07]

I just googled Clayton, NY. Are you prepared to design a roof with a 48' snow load? :D

That's why I was leaning towards common rafters, I know what works around here as far as standard building goes.  The part that I really have to think over is how to brace the posts above the tie beams to fight the rafter thrust.  It's not just snow load, metal roof sheds it fast here as well as the wind keeps them pretty clear.  Wind is my major concern where I live.  This barn would need a lot of bracing, when I built my house about eight years ago I braced every wall on the diagonals from the top to bottom plates, kind of like the old time line framing.  Our biggest room in the house is 20x28 with scissor trusses.  The bracing made the walls real stiff without the sheathing on.  Glad I overbuilt the house, I don't worry about it coming apart.

[jimdad07]

I had a piece of plywood that was the same width as the stringers. I would put my saw, square, chisels on it. Worked great. There's nothing wrong with making everything. It keeps the skills alive and gives a great appreciation for what you have accomplished.

I highly enjoy working with my hands, I'm an industrial HVAC tech by day and carpenter/welder/chainsaw fanatic/farmer/goofball by night.  I started in the trades about 14 years ago framing houses and pole barns.  I then moved on to an HVAC/electrical company and learned electrical work on the houses here in the 1000 Islands.  About 7 years ago I landed a HVAC/R job with a union outfit up here.  Best move I have made career wise so far.  I'm the type that has to be busy all the time, always learning a new hobby to improve another hobby.  If you don't keep learning new skill sets you might as well kick over.  Drives my wife and kids nuts, drives me nuts too.

[Brian_Weekley]

My best advice is to take Jack Sobon and Dave Carlon's timber frame class.  Since you're in NY, it wouldn't be too far away.  They teach it every Sept at the Hancock Shaker Village in western, MA (Sep 23-27 this year).  Best course for the price, taught by true masters of the trade:

http://hancockshakervillage.org/programs-events/workshops/

It's a beautiful location too.  I took my wife and made a vacation out of it.  She dropped me off at class every morning to sightsee during the day while I worked and we found some nice restaurants in the evening.  Most fun I've had away from my real job in a long time!

I'm a competent woodworker and was convinced I could easily build my first timber frame completely on my own by just reading books.  However, after taking Jack's course, I learned how much I didn't know—especially regarding layout and the tips and techniques to make the joinery correctly.

You should be able to find an existing drawing as a good starting point.  Here's a full 2-story, 30x48 barn with queen posts that might be similar to what you're looking for (five bents/4 bays):

http://www.mainebarncompany.com/popup.php?image=/graphics/plan05_all.gif

There's nothing more stunning than a timber frame barn.  Queen posts, principal purlin plates, and common rafters look great:

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/common_rafter_roof_system.JPG

[witterbound]

Bracing the posts above the tie beams is a question for an engineer, not a diy question.  Almost all of the timber frames I've seen limit these knee walls to about three feet.  Not sure it's possible to make them taller.

[jimdad07]

My best advice is to take Jack Sobon and Dave Carlon's timber frame class.  Since you're in NY, it wouldn't be too far away.  They teach it every Sept at the Hancock Shaker Village in western, MA (Sep 23-27 this year).  Best course for the price, taught by true masters of the trade:

http://hancockshakervillage.org/programs-events/workshops/

It's a beautiful location too.  I took my wife and made a vacation out of it.  She dropped me off at class every morning to sightsee during the day while I worked and we found some nice restaurants in the evening.  Most fun I've had away from my real job in a long time!

I'm a competent woodworker and was convinced I could easily build my first timber frame completely on my own by just reading books.  However, after taking Jack's course, I learned how much I didn't know—especially regarding layout and the tips and techniques to make the joinery correctly.

You should be able to find an existing drawing as a good starting point.  Here's a full 2-story, 30x48 barn with queen posts that might be similar to what you're looking for (five bents/4 bays):

http://www.mainebarncompany.com/popup.php?image=/graphics/plan05_all.gif

There's nothing more stunning than a timber frame barn.  Queen posts, principal purlin plates, and common rafters look great:

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/common_rafter_roof_system.JPG

Thank you for the information.  I used to live near Ahmherst Mass, mother and step dad live in Belchertown.  That place is amazing, Upper Canada village is another good one.  I'll look into that course.  Thanks.