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"Portable Sawmill Business" Is It Worth Getting In To?

Started by 038magnum, March 11, 2012, 08:27:13 PM

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Cedarman

Stephen, if yard trees it be, then have a good metal detector,  hammer and chisel is nice, a good axe helps.  I like a big pair of vise grips.  Sometimes a crow bar for the big nails.
Those yard trees are like a box of cracker jacks, you never know what is inside.  In your case I hope the cracker jack box doesn't have a surprise in  it.
Happy sawing.  ZING!!!
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Leigh Family Farm

Quote from: BandsawWarrior on August 09, 2012, 11:15:57 PM
To the OP
If you want to mill lumber and have a hobby, get a sawmill. 
If you want a full time job where you work very hard and make very little "profit", get a sawmill.
If you want to make money in the lumber industry get a industrial planer moulder and a resaw. 

It's hard to two guys to saw 1000bf/day 5 days a week on a bandsaw.  There's so many other time consuming things that need to be done to make this happen. 

However, it's easy for two guys to run 5000bf through planer in 2-3 hours.  This could be anything from T&G to log siding.... 

Bandsawwarrior, very interesting point of view. I am looking to get into the portable sawmill business in a year or so and I would have thought that the purchase order would be bandsaw, edger, kiln, planer, and then a resaw (in that order). Have you found that there is a larger supply of rough sawn lumber that planing is more profitable in the beginning?
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

JustinW_NZ

Having just started into a portable venture 6 odd months ago heres my ten cents...

Had the same questions you asked, found a lot of the answers from these fine folks on here in old threads.  :P
I guess we all come into this with our own reasons why and that will often dicate our actions, so excuse the background fill, but i think its usefull? - tell me otherwise..

(backgroud)
It started for me because the wife and I were looking at land with trees that to get value from them needed a mill, however the deal didnt go ahead but i had found a mill for sale locally that looked very versatile and feature packed. (1997 Woodmizer LT-40 SH +resaw +shapener/setter)
decided to give this a punt as my day job was getting a bit slow and ive been doing that for a long time, the wife agreed and we bought the second hand unit.
(end of background)

A couple of things were key to me;
1 - Had to be portable and hydrolic as my help (wife/family/friends) might be around OR might be busy should I need them (and yes a 43hp diesel on one of these mills will stuff you if operating by yourself)
2 - It was only a weekend project that needed to "pay for itself" i.e if its working, it need to pay its costs BUT we can afford the small amount of money from a loan to purchase it even if it sits in the driveway being unused. (might hurt but doable)

Funnily enough, my day job has gone nuts and i havent had time to get out there and advertise/chase bussiness so the mill sit's idle currently!
In our area I think portable milling would be an income (part time) but not really a big money earner - not that the money is everything to me, or others here? i think, i like getting out and about somewhat.
BUT im a strong believer in Value add so i wish to build a kiln and stuff sooner rather than later and i think that could turn into something more?

It currently looks a job i did for a local logging firm is leading rapidly into just buying select saw logs from small acre holdings they are taking on as this crew also does firewood/land clearing and the they like keeping a small ground crew busy while in between larger jobs.
Right now were looking at paying slightly higher per ton for the logs than chip price BUT that could be price on the skid, so no transport cut out of it.
So the crew logs the stand, selects the good wood for me, puts it on small deck piles, i roll in after and process it as quickly as possible.
This is something perhaps you could pursue look for a similar two way relationship??

It looking like it could work here partly because a lot of these small jobs are not worth it for logging outfits or more importantly the TIMBER owner they dont go ahead, so if you can tip the scale on a lot were it was going to be "trees all gone to the mill heres the bill" to "trees gone, betters ones left for a portable sawer - heres the small cheque" it then works out well for everyone as I get good logs handed to me to make things out off and the logging outfit gets some fill in work to keep them going and the small land/tree owner makes a few bux..
Perhaps this is the niche im heading into locally?

Currently with little support equipment (nor do i want it currently) this suits very well as its not really needed for this.
It does mean I have to target selling finished products like garden sleepers etc currently as i cant process the roughsawen lumber into much else.
My sister in law owns a garden shop though, so can sell them in there and it keeps the extended family happy as they can make there cut...  :)

This will vary perhaps by area on what demands/mills/timber there is perhaps, in New Zealand pine or douglas fir is plantation growen on a large scale, no hope to compete with products there unless I was doing a large beam or one off piece/s?
But most other types like ecualyptus or Macrocarpa and "worthless" for production mills but make good timber for other uses (flooring, decking, green garden products, etc etc)

OH - that reminds me, because I did a little research, I soon figured most portable mills around the area are swing mills they arent so good (lower yeild) or just avoided doing ecualyptus which lead me to think - hey get a band mill (IMHO more versatile for this) and target the life out of that since theres lots of it and only one other local firm wants it.
And much to my surprise my first job yeilded 6 cubic meters of some very nice looking hardwood ecualytus!  8) (aweful stuff to learn on unless you like learning FAST!)

I think the "portable milling is it worth getting into" should have "in my area" tacked to the end off it personaly, as everyones area is different.

Some of you more knowledgable forum dwellers please pick this to bits  8)

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

drobertson

Hey Kilgrosh, sounds like you have a plan. I put in a resaw last summer, jit for the buyer to start shutting people off. It takes allot of cants to make one bundle of cut stock,  but the edger, mill, and some kind of loader a must to run up the totals.  I do most of my edgeing on the mill, I am by myself and it just works out better for me. The main thing is a steady supply of something to cut.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Leigh Family Farm

Thanks for the tidbit DrRob and Justin. Each area is different and I need to do more research on what is viable in my area. I am in the same boat as Justin, in that the mill will need to either pay for its purchase cost each month OR pay for its operating cost. My current job allows me to handle one or the other but not both.

There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

drobertson

I have found that in these recent times that cutting out for folks what they need and taking the remainder to local flooring mills works for all parties. I have gave in to the big bucks and try to just cover the operating cost and make a paycheck. It does work, it is just allot of work. Talking with tie buyers openly about what you are doing goes a long way. Many times the market gets flooded but not so much for small orders. It is not a big check but a check the same. Cash flow is the name of the game as far as keeping logs on the yard, but quality tops all. Junk is easy to find, and no one really wants to deal with this.  Keep the blade in the log!  work smart and it will pay off.  Find local wood workers, pig farmers, anyone who needs less than 1000 bd/ft and the checks will be there. Just cut quality!   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Leigh Family Farm

Pig farmers?! Is there some special cut of lumber that they use?
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

drobertson

No not really, but most of what they use  is 6"  and 4" for panels. Low grade stuff. It sure beats .05 cents a bd/ft.
Most of the time I get .40 cents a bd/ft. remember this is niche, and you can strip it and wait, unless folks are not building. Even so, many folks are putting up metal roofs, and 4" is a great nailer for this. Keep your options open. You might even use some yourself. just be ready to sell, and have it good enough to build with. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

drobertson

Brother I have to admit, I have skipped a bunch of posts.  Sawing custom you can figure, with a hydraulic mill, between 20 and 80 bucks an hour. This has been the status quo for the last several years.  No bs here. There are real good days, and some days, well thats' what they are.  84 bucks an hour is the best I have done, no bull here, If I were to try and give you an accurate number, 30 bucks an hour, but this is not for every hour of every day, through the week.  I quit keeping up with it, I just like to live, three kids in college, a wife that supports me, and custormers that appreciate quality work. And It is hard and hot, and In a few months it will be cold. That is about it brother, that being said, cover the bases, find the markets, follow up on the jobs, and they will return.  David
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

1woodguy

Quite good information in this topic well worth reading!
Experience is a rough teacher first you get the test later comes the lesson!

drobertson

I just got back from taking in a load of ties, They are restructering a bit. In that they pay on the yard rather than waiting for the check, a good thing, but they are busting every bundle and inspecting every tie. this has never happened before.  All went well, but while we were talking the buyers and I were discussing bad backs and small checks. the buyer said he just came from a mill where the ole man, (more man than me) 83 years old, was still running his mill, by hand. Keeping his grandson covered up with lumber at the tail!  Paul Bunyon came to mind,  It is just hard work, but like they all have said, "once sawdust gets in you vains, it is over" It is very rewarding, nothing else to say.    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

sigidi

I've been pushing a Lucas of one kind or another for almost 10 years, I've only had it as my sole income for the last 2 years and recently have 'made' money. I do mobile jobs(anywhere up to 500km each way at times), sub-contract to other Lucas owners (my favorite saying is there are a lot of owners but a lot less operators), sell my own timber, cut split posts for myself to sell and also for others to use on their properties. I answer my own phone calls and emails, do my own quotes, my own accounting, my own maintenance, tail my own lumber, find and harvest my own logs, and load and deliver them myself as well as deliver my timber myself - you get the idea. Most days now see me waking at 0430 and could still be welding some gear or cleaning down a saw, maybe even sharpening chains until 2330, there have been 3-4 week runs where I have 2-3 days off in the 4 weeks (the main reason I am a bit slow getting here at times)

I recently had my 10 year old daughter come to live with me, some days see me getting her to before school care around 0630 if I have a big job on and picking her up from school anywhere up to 1830, but often I get to take her to school at 0830 and pick her up around 1700. I get to take the day off to see her at sports day, or go to the school to see her 'art' days, can take the whole week off when its school holidays, or like Friday I started the mill at midday, by 1330 had cutting $390 order and had a BBQ and a beer with the chaps at the construction site before picking my daughter up at 1500.

I pay my bills, keep my gear maintained, buy stuff when I want to and still get to save a little for when/if I don't have jobs on. There isn't a week that goes by I don't thank the Lucas boys for making such a machine which lets me have such a flexible time with my daughter. Admittedly, I don't think I will be able to afford to buy my own home on my mill income, unless I start to hire guys who can cut while I line up more stuff, but I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't gamble, don't have a boat or take holidays each year - so my bills are small.

Like many have said it depends what you call is it worth it... for me being able to take a day off to go to my little girls school and not worry about 'losing my job' or if I can pay the bills - that is more than worth it - thanks Lucas ;D
Always willing to help - Allan

FeltzE

Quote from: BandsawWarrior on August 09, 2012, 11:15:57 PM
It's hard to two guys to saw 1000bf/day 5 days a week on a bandsaw.  There's so many other time consuming things that need to be done to make this happen. 

However, it's easy for two guys to run 5000bf through planer in 2-3 hours.  This could be anything from T&G to log siding. 

The problem with small sawmill operations is that they're not easily scalable.  Small orders are a waste of time and large orders usually have time constraints that can't be met by a one to two person operation.  Also, the capital investment never ends.  After your sawmill purchase you'll realize you need an edger, resaw, straight line rip, jump saw, loader, forklift, storage shop, trailer, and so on.   

 


[in my opinion]
Considering a portable bandsaw with 1 1/2 blades, and one good loader (tractor or off road forklift) 2000 feet a day is easy, more would be difficult

You will spend $20,000 on that planer molder operation not including knives and a building to run those T&G rates and you still need the forklift

Nothing is easily scaleable, the sawmill is only (variabily) 20% of your inititial investments, you need blades, sharpeners, loaders, potentially planer and kiln space. No everyone doesn't have them, but they easily become ancellary to the sawmill depending on your market area.




There is a definitive niche business "bubble" as I like to think about it. If you pay for your equipment up front and don't incur excessive debt, don't hire laborers, and remain flexible you will profit well from your time spent 75% profit from your gross income. If you leave that small bubble, you incur labor cost, more insurance cost, greater liability. Your profit margin drops and you need to scale up to make your acceptable level of personal income.

Is it worth it, Yes for me. But I don't normally charge hourly if I do its about 50/hr. Or a minimum charge for a small job. Its by the board foot and although we have our great days, they aren't the normal, as there are more saws popping up annually keeping the prices low.

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