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Tonage vs Price per foot

Started by redneckman, February 28, 2018, 09:07:05 PM

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redneckman

I got hooked up with a local tree trimmer guy and I have been buying some logs from him.  He recently cut some BEAUTIFUL southern yellow pine.  Some of the logs are 24" through, and nearly perfectly straight.  They are so heavy, my 50hp loader would not lift them without bucking the logs shorter.  There were 5 trees, each around 100-120' tall (he has a 60' bucket truck and it would reach half way).  I estimated there to be 2000-2500 board feet in the logs.  I did my estimate based on hauiling on a 2 ton truck in the past.  Loaded to the gills, I could haul around 2000' of yellow poplar.  There is no way I could haul all these pine logs on it in one load  I have hauled two loads of these SYP on my trailer, piled up at least 3' over the deck.  I still have one BIG load left to get.  I was doing some homework on what I paid him.  Back in the old days, logs were priced per 1000'.  Now, everything is off tonage.  My state has a quarterly report on pricing, but unless I weighed every load, I do not know what it would be worth.  Do any of you guys know how to convert tonage cost to board feet cost?  I figure it would be different for all species, since they are all different weights.  BTW, did I say SYP is HEAVY!

mike_belben

I know its not much help, but i weighed a load of stave white oak logs at about 18lbs per board foot doyle scale, iirc.  
Praise The Lord

redneckman

Actually, that does help.  I have loaded white oak, and it sure seems that the YP is close to the same weight.  That at least gets me in the ball park.  Thanks.

CX3

John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

starmac

Isn't the log weight calculator still in the toolbox?
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

OntarioAl

The calculator you need is in the tool box
hope this helps
Al
Al Raman

Southside

Loblolly is give or take 3 ton / MBF
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Peter Drouin

If you buy by the BF, you will know what you have Green or dry the BF is the same.   
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

WDH

Take the diameter of the large end inside bark.  Take the diameter of the small end inside bark.  Add them together and divide by 2 to get the average.  This becomes an estimate of the mid-log diameter.

Take that average diameter and square it.  Multiply that by .005454.  That is the cross-sectional area of the mid-log in square feet.  Multiply that by the length of the log.  Now you have the cubic feet of wood in the log.  For LOBLOLLY pine, multiply the cubic feet by 60.  This is the pounds per cubic feet of solid wood.  This is the weight in pounds for the log.  If you want board feet, use one of the log scales like International 1/4". 

So, a 10 foot log that has an average large end and small end diameter of 20" will have 21.8 cubic feet in it.  Multiplied by 60 pounds per cubic foot, the log weight estimate is 1309 pounds or .65 tons.  Lets assume that the large end of the log was 22" and the small end inside bark was 18".  If you cut the log and get the exact yield predicted by the International 1/4" rule, that is 145 BF or .145 MBF (thousand BF).  .65 tons divided by .145 MBF =  4.48 tons per MBF.

I generally get about 15% overrun with International, so if you add 15% to the board foot estimate for overrun, then the board foot estimate becomes 167 BF or .167 MBF.  Then .65 tons divided by .167 MBF = 3.89 tons/MBF.

Note that the FF Calculator uses the outside bark mid-log diameter, which is easier to measure than the inside bark mid-log diameter.  If you assume the that there is 2" thickness of bark, then using the FF Calculator, you get a log weight of 1399 pounds or .7 tons.  Either approach will get you very close to the weight of the log.

There will a test tomorrow, so bring your slide rule :D. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

redneckman

Thanks guys.  This is great information.  I also agree to buy logs by the board feet, and not the weight. Does anyone know if there is a list somewhere that gives average tons per MBF for different species?  Not looking for specifics, just ball park estimates.  

mike_belben

WDH just broke my frontal math lobe.  Now im feeling like that $10.50 cat scale slip was a bargain. 
Praise The Lord

WDH

Tons per MBF varies by log size.  It takes a whole lot more weight of 8" logs to make a MBF than the equivalent weight of 20" logs within the same species.  For example, in SYP and with 10' logs and using the Doyle BF Scale, it takes 6.5 tons of 14" small end diameter logs to make a MBF while it takes 4.4 tons of 24" logs to make a MBF.  Again, this is using the Doyle BF Scale. 

So, the answer to your question is that "it depends".
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Peter Drouin

If you have a straight log, scale it then cut it on your mill. That will tell you how good you are.
Get a log with 2" of sweep figure the deduction cut it on your mill, See how you do.
Get a log with a 4" rot spot in the end figure the deduction cut it , How did you do?

It all comes down to what you get for lumber from the logs your buying.
Pay too much you go broke, Shot the logger on BF you don't get logs.



When you get that figured out then we can go to grade.  ;D

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

starmac

I tend to agree with WDH, at least that works with how we get paid for logs.
We get paid on a scales slip, but the amount depends on the average the logs scaled out. We weigh all loads, but the mill only scales the first 5 loads, then pays on the average, they will scale a random load every 15 to 20 loads, to keep those that try to pass off a bunch of trash, and adjust your scale, the price per ton changes, this way, the basic price per scaled board foot stays the same.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Peter Drouin

All the BF of the logs are on my scale slips. so the trucker gets paid what he halls.
If there is a deduction it's on the slip in line with the log that's recorded.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

starmac

The loggers I haul for gets somethingthat shows the scale deductions,as a trucker I never see it, nor have a need to. I get paid by the load, a couple of others get paid by the ton, but I wouldn't haul by the ton, so they agreed to pay me by the load. Actually you needed a sliding rule o figure the pay for a load by the ton, they pay so much a pound, plus so much a mile, plus the fuel surcharge of the day, nah not for me.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

tmbrcruiser

I live in Delaware and SYP from the Delmarva Peninsula is converted at all of the pine mills using 6 tons per MBF. This weight does cause an over scaling in small logs and an under scaling in larger logs. Given the need to have a quick conversion this weight is accepted and on the average is fair if you are a production logger. If the logs are cut to length is a simple step to measure each log on the small end inside the bark then use a log scale to calculate board feet. For higher grade hardwoods Doyle seems to be the custom in this area and International 1/4" is used for SYP.
Once you get sap in your veins, you will always have sawdust in your pockets.

WDH

In Georgia, the commercial market for logs is always by the ton.  Everything is weighted. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Matt601

Mississippi everything is paid off ton. I scale every load and get slips. Take the slips end of the week and get paid. I remember back in the old days when they strapped the load and come up with cord lot of guys got shorted it was good if you was cutting bug pines trees but not live. 
No matter where you go there you are!!!

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