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Seeking source for education in "sound" bandsaw mill design and construction.

Started by MikeySP, October 02, 2018, 05:56:56 PM

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Crusarius

Square and rectangle is also good for torsion resistance. one good thing about square is you can see when it is twisted.

good writeup Mike. sometimes its better to show the bad instead of the good.

I made my backstops spring loaded to combat those problems you spoke of. So far I have not had a problem with them moving once loaded.

you could always put a butt plate on the mill as well. something to push the log against and let gravity do the rest.

Hilltop366

Quote from: mike_belben on October 10, 2018, 10:53:25 AMOne more thought, ifnyou need hydraulics there is nothing that says you cant have two engines, one for the saw and one for the turner, clamp and maybe even live deck system. Heck why not a greenchain for outbound lumber? A 13hp motor with a 3gpm pump at 2000 psi will run a backhoe at about the normal speed youd dig with and theyre fairly affordable, sub $600 new. Itll convey and flip logs no doubt. You could build your carriage with an operator seat so that you ride the carriage while sawing then when returned home you are in reach of a stationary control panel for log handling.  Would save a lot of walking and no need to figure out a cable carrier and have the saw head cluttered with controls.  Put a beach umbrella and beer holster on the seat, be like a vacation.


Another option for the remote Hyd power unit is to have the operator stationary and use it to run the feed as well, then there are only a few things that need to be run remotely on the mill that can be hydraulic as well with a much smaller system or electric.

Saw height is the only necessary one but moveable guide and throttle control would be nice, perhaps a emergency shutdown as well.

Options for remote could be wired or wireless, electric or electric hydraulic.



Hilltop366

One idea I have thought of is using hydraulic valves mounted on the side of the saw head that are controlled by cam followers and rods (or flat stock) that run along the length of the saw bed with a leaver on the end to raise or lower the rod which in turn moves the valve controls. If using the cam follower idea for saw head travel as well a bend in the end of the rod would automatically move the hydraulic valve to neutral to prevent the saw head from ramming the end of the track. 


Another is to have a hydraulic system on the saw head with and a separate on the bed to take care of log handling but power the log handling system from the saw motor when the saw head is in the "home" position by means of a belt or clutch that engages the saw bed pump to power it.  

Crusarius

One of my original thoughts was electric everything on the bed and power it when the head is in the home position. I find I rarely have the head in the home position. kinda glad I never wired it up that way but I still have not added what I want to the bed yet for log handling.

mike_belben

Andersen cable connectors are definitely rigid enough to have a male and female snap together when the carriage returns home and docks the two ports together.  I think its reasonable to put a DC powerpack hydraulic system on the mill bed and have it be powered by the parked carriage.  I mean if you are in home and handling a log you arent sawing so the motor is running for nothing.  Electric forklifts tend to have 24vdc motors, pumps and valving.  Usually a combination of DC solenoid and manual spool.  
Praise The Lord

Hilltop366

Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 10, 2018, 01:24:49 PMAnother is to have a hydraulic system on the saw head with and a separate on the bed to take care of log handling but power the log handling system from the saw motor when the saw head is in the "home" position by means of a belt or clutch that engages the saw bed pump to power it.


For this one my original thought was to have a belt that ran along the mill bed frame 3 or 4 feet with the pump on one end and a idler pulley on the other so as the saw head returned it could contact the belt before it got to the end to give a longer area to park the saw head and use the log handling things. Not all the details worked out.

Hilltop366

Probably easier to run a small gas engine for the bed hydraulics considering how cheap the engines are these days.

Crusarius

that would work really nicely with a lovejoy running the hydraulic pump.

MikeySP

Gentlemen, thank again for such an educational set of comments. This is inventors class for sure.

Crusarius, I am familiar with the concept of arduino, and have always wanted to find time for learning how to use it. However, I typically learn a technology when I work on a project that uses it. Good point about square tubng showing the twist. Recently experienced that when my skidsteer quick attach plate came off bucket on onoly one side with a 1000 lb grapple ont eh front. Not good.  All fixed. When you said lovejoy running the hydraulic pump, did you mean the coupling that connects two shafts or some other technology? What made you think to only use the power when in the "home position"? Was it the idea that the motor is strained to cut and power an all elec system when not enough HP?? You know, aside from having to employ two pumps, one could have the power head run any hydraulics in the head and and the 5hp engine at the end of carriage (Like turner mill) run hydraulics for log handling... would be another engine to maintain also... I guess I will see how I look after gettng my pile of stuff together. Would prefer one diesel (mobile) or electric (staitionary),,,, but I may find my situation different.

Hilltop366, thank you kindly for that link. Already opened to check it out. I did see the turner mills have a secondary 5hp engine. I thought it was just because the main could not handle the workload. Now that you mentioned it I see that it would need less lines potentially as the lines could be stationary for the "set works" (new word for me :) Had never heard of an anderson connector before. Looke dit up and glad to know what it is. I sure wish there was an inventors book that mentioned much of the commonly available technologies and how to implemeent. If I lived near a "kbeitz" I would try to be his disciple of invention. Actually, Mike Belben better be glad he doesn't live closer or he might have to run me off.  

Mike Belben, your post was a class in itself. I learned several new definition and engineering ideas. Jjust by googling terms you ised such as green chain, live dwck, linear stage. I had not even considered the idea of air for anything in the design. I did use a beefy 4" air cylinder to automate a plastic injection machine for my son last year. Got me thinking?? kbeitz read was indeed amazing. That man knows how to fabricate from what is on hand. The torsion/resistance data... great! Drive shaft and angle example made it very clear. Thank you very much for the thoughtful explanation. I am the guy who really wants to know "why?" something works, not just "use round tube!" which leaves me unsatisifed asking "why?" Same reason I now know I want diesel power for mobile and electric if stationary, and gas only if free :) I was not sure what you meant by the coated conduit or the last pic, but reread it and looke dat pic and now I have both clear. Last pic is cam. Thise are on the yellow tube. So your next attemot will be to put a pointed bolt where that T shaped rod for the cam is. Really appreciate your taking the time to instruct me Mike. This was really awesome, educational. I really should have been an engineer/fabricator/mad scientist. I love this stuff.

Someone gave me a Foley Belsaw. Has about 36-40" steel blade. I looked at it, but do not see how to automate it. It would certainly be stationary for me, but it is free.

-Mike


Crusarius

Quote from: MikeySP on October 11, 2018, 08:43:41 AM
Gentlemen, thank again for such an educational set of comments. This is inventors class for sure.

Crusarius, I am familiar with the concept of arduino, and have always wanted to find time for learning how to use it. However, I typically learn a technology when I work on a project that uses it. Good point about square tubng showing the twist. Recently experienced that when my skidsteer quick attach plate came off bucket on onoly one side with a 1000 lb grapple ont eh front. Not good.  All fixed. When you said lovejoy running the hydraulic pump, did you mean the coupling that connects two shafts or some other technology? What made you think to only use the power when in the "home position"? Was it the idea that the motor is strained to cut and power an all elec system when not enough HP?? You know, aside from having to employ two pumps, one could have the power head run any hydraulics in the head and and the 5hp engine at the end of carriage (Like turner mill) run hydraulics for log handling... would be another engine to maintain also... I guess I will see how I look after gettng my pile of stuff together. Would prefer one diesel (mobile) or electric (staitionary),,,, but I may find my situation different.
Yes, lovejoy coupling. could have drive side on carriage and when you put it into the home position it could connect to slave side and power the hydraulics that way.

The reason I was thinking power only in the home position was so I did not have to run wires or hoses off the carriage and have them move with the head. I prefer to minimize wearable items. wires and hoses only have so much flex life before issues arise. I guess I could set it up so the battery is on the bed and then that won't be a problem but then I would not have the engine charging the battery.

As much as I would love to have a diesel, having a manual mill just means more weight to push around. They cost quite a bit more. And the fuel also costs more. In the end I could not justify diesel. I almost bought a kubota tractor with a 3 cylinder diesel just for the engine. I bought the HF 22 hp predator. cost me $700 at the time. If I had been more patient I could have gotten it for $650. Hard to beat that. so far the engine has been great and I have plenty of power. up until this past weekend I think I had more issues with power transfer due to slipping belts. I added a belt tensioner and it cut so much smoother.

Glad I could help. I am not shy keep the questions coming. Not only does it help you, but it also helps me and anyone reading this in the future.

Crusarius

oh yea, diesel also weighs quite a bit more. So now you need to build beefier and heavier to support the weight.

Hilltop366

For the cam lock log dogs (or any other kind) I was wondering if they were sloped towards the log a bit they would push down when tightened there by avoiding the lifting of the log? Kind of like having some preset in them.

I had screw type log dog and found them slow to set and always thought the cam lock would be so much faster.

Check out the Logosol dogs in this video.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=124&v=OmyFKF8zIa0

Crusarius

I love having the springs. the sleeve on the 2" square locks like the cam locks bar but the spring holds it from moving.

Ljohnsaw

Lot of great ideas on that Logosaw band mill.  Here is my cam clamp I made.  The handle/lever was just some scrap Â½" rod that was already bent.  The cam is a piece of SS rod.  The bolts are Grade 8 5/16" IIRC.  The tube is ¼" wall 2x2.  The clamp is 1x1 solid steel.  The point is level when you start and angles down slightly when fully clamped so I suppose it pulls down a little.  They work fantastic - easy, FAST and very strong.  The only problem is the lower bolt prevents me from going lower than 7½".  I might try to countersink it or replace it with a roll pin.  I made a smaller one that is rotated 90° for doing the little stuff.


 

 

 

 
They are not quite so pretty anymore but still function great.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

MikeySP

Nifty log dogs. I will make powered, but this still gives me close up details. Just need to replace a hand with power. :)

Diesel is definitely more weight, but If I am building the mill, and it will cost little different because of my free parts, I want a high production machine. If it was choice between free 22hp or spendy 50hp, I would go with the former. If it was a manual mill it would also play in. So in the end, I will look at my pile of stuff and make compromises where it makes economic sense and time to build sense. 

On a side note, someone just gave me a functioning Foley Belsaw with 36-40" steel blade. Not sure if this is something that can be automated?? I had not considered a circular, but it was free??

-Mike

MikeySP


mike_belben

Those are some very innovative dogs.


Here i can buy red diesel cheaper than gas and it lasts forever.  Im on a break from it now, but i make waste vegetable oil fuel and conversion systems.  

Gas engines mean eventually fooling with carbs and ignitions.. Not a week goes by that i dont have some stupid gas engine problem.  Coils, breakers, condensors, distributor buttons, wires, never ends.  My diesels are always easier to keep up.  

I would consider a small mechanical diesel for my saw and a $99 throwaway Predator for the setworks.  Buy 2 and a warranty.  Any grief and you swap them out then get another like flashlight batteries.  5hp sounds small.. But 5 horses can pull huge loads.  You use a small displacement pump (low gpm) and just wait 3 seconds longer, big deal.  Its when you want 10gpm at 3000 psi that you need bigger motor.  3gpm at 2200 psi will do what you need.  A log dog or backstop mover doesnt need much flow or pressure.. A half hp worth.  


I wish i had friends who toss belsaws!


Praise The Lord

MikeySP

Actually, very good friend that I gifted the mill, a lathe, and metal milling machine to. All old beat up stuff. Anyways, he recently got a steel rail Foley that is quite a bit nicer w/42" Carbide blade. When he knew I was looking at building a bandmill, he told me he did not want the one I gave him and said for me to take it and use it or sell it to fund my project. 

What say you Gents? Folley Belsaw with "steel" blade. New cardbide insert blade would be$$$ for starters, but are steel blades poor performers?

Next, is there a way to make these automated. Feed already is, but it would need log turner, loader, dogs, etc..

The log bed is too thin for any trama, so it would need a bed to feed it. But even then, the space is not there for the additional automation (as best I can tell).

However, if I disassembled the sawmill and put the power-plant (tractor) and blade/bearing blocks alone to one side and then built a beefy feed and log management on the other, it could have some potential perhaps. I lose all portability though.

May need to stick with the bandmill idea, but this is tempting. 

JB Griffin

I have toyed with the idea of going circle several times, but can't make it work for one man efficiently.  Take the mill maybe you can do something with it or use it as is.
2000 LT40hyd remote 33hp Kubota with 6gpm hyd unit, 150 Prentice, WM bms250, Suffolk dual tooth setter

Over 3.5million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator.

MikeySP

OK Gents, here is where I am at currently: I will pick up the Belsaw and trade/sell it to finish acquiring the parts I need to build a bandsaw mill.

As mentioned, I have on hand many items such as steel and lots of hardware stuff. 

I have acquired through trading a few guns: 
44HP Kubota Turbo Diesel with about 1500 hrs on it.
10 good (used) hydraulic motors with some hoses, valves (both mechanical and solenoid types)
several small hydraulic cylinders (1/2" - 3/4" rod dia and about 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" bore with a stroke of about 12-15 inches).
a bunch more hardware related stuff. 

All of this came from the trade, so I will use what will work, and set aside what won't.

I plan to reread Cooks bandsaw wheel size paper to see what size wheels I will need and to determine what size blade I should use: 1.5" 2"?

Cook's wheels are about $500 each for 26" (I think)
Hud-son sells 25" wheels for $275 each ( I think)

However, I think the cooks come with the part that has a keyway and bolts to the wheel; whereas, the Hudson appears to be the wheel without that other part. 

I have been scouring for trading but have not found any sawmill wheels on craigslist or facebook. 

Can I use a large bandsaw? There are some large, older, heavy bandsaws I see, but I wasn't sure if they are strong enough for a 44HP engine when they are currently powered by a 2-3hp electric motor for woodworking shop duties.

Additionally, what is the sanity/insanity or building a LONG trailer for a sawmill. 30-50ft. 

Thank you Gents and have a great Fall day.

Crusarius

whatever you build for a trailer make sure you can transport it and get it into tight spots. I have a 24' trailer and it is challenging just getting it turned around sometimes.

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: MikeySP on October 26, 2018, 08:54:03 AMAdditionally, what is the sanity/insanity or building a LONG trailer for a sawmill. 30-50ft.

What is your target length of log to cut?  You could do what someone else has done - make fold up extension.  Make the bed what you need for your target log - strong and rigid.  Then, have fold up ends that only need to be stout enough to support your mill head.  Think of them as parking places to get the mill out of the way when loading a log or finishing the cut.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Crusarius

That was an idea I had. So far I have not needed anymore than the 24' bed I have. Maybe one day. But till then the 24' is a big PITA trying to move it around my house.

Southside

As far as the length goes, the first question is do you have logs that long in your area that you would be sawing?  Is there a market for timbers that long?  Getting a 30' straight log, that needs to be sawn into 30' material is not an everyday thing.  The other issue is you need to be able to manage that monster on and off of the mill.  They are heavy and un wieldy when trying to move around, they just don't cooperate unless you have the right equipment.  

If long stuff is a "might" have the chance to see once in a great while then I would stick with something more compact, but design it so you can add on later, in the form of a portable extension,  should the market present you with that opportunity.  Then when you need the long saw you make two trips, or two tow units - charge on those jobs accordingly - but everything is still maneuverable for daily work.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

MikeySP

Great. Thanks for the comments gents. Helps me think more clearly. 

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