The mystery of the Code

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

So the potential customer says,...

I heard that a guy with a mill came in and cut a bunch of lumber,
but they couldn't use it for anything but sheds.  Is that how your mill cuts?

You can tell by the remarks that an educational effort will be necessary.
I have included below what I used to answer the comment.  What has your experience been when faced with the use of rough sawn lumber in a situation where it would face building inspection?

Here is the gist of my answer to him, "El Dubio".


For "rough" lumber to be used in homes, there are two primary considerations:

1.   The inspector of the city or county
2.   The lumber itself

A local building inspector following the UBC (codes) can pronounce that the wood is
useable, if it is apparent that the lumber is properly sized and is in good
condition and strong.   That inspector has some latitude in the decision
and can ask, for example, that certain minimum dimensions are used in
order to satisfy any doubts he may have about the lumber.  For example, he
may ask that it be cut a little "fat", say at 1-5/8 inch by 3-5/8 inches, instead
of the modern dimensions for a two-by-four of 1-1/2" by 3-1/2".

The lumber must, of course, be equivalent to store bought.  (Most yellow
pine cut locally will actually be stronger that mass-produced white wood from
Canada, but that is beside the point.)  The building inspector can pronounce
it as being equivalent, or he can be told that it is equivalent by a lumber grader.
(That means a professional lumber grader.)  In the case of a picky or dubious
local inspector,  a lumber grader can be hired to stamp the lumber.   

There is even a possibility that the lumber which you have reported as having
been dismissed as un-useable for homes, was rejected out of hand due to a
mis-understanding of what the codes actually say.  A lumber grader's stamp
will solve the problem, unless the lumber was allowed to spoil (mold, etc.) or
was mis-cut.

Finally, lumber is not suitable, until it is dry.  For example, air drying pine from
now until June 15, 2006 drops its moisture content to about 12% - that is more
dry that much of the store bought construction lumber is.  "Kiln dry" for studs
is not the same thing as "kiln dry" for cabinet lumber.

In your case, however, if you were dealing with lumber right off the sawmill,
sawn by the previous sawyer group, that lumber can not be certified for a house -
not by the building inspector, nor by a grader.  It must first dry.  Drying prevents
mold, insects, and greatly increases the strength of lumber.

[Since this person was in the hurricane recovery area:]
Your inspectors need to be brought into "the spirit of recovery" so to speak by
welcoming their input and by all parties making sure of the common goal of
turning waste into a blessing - yet, doing it well and safely!  Doing that takes
a bit more than just sawing up a log.

Hope that helps?


I realize that some areas use sawyer training which can allow the sawyer to actually
provide an affadavit or statement which identifies the lumber as being suitable, but
what happens with your own inspector is more important.

What have your experiences and advisories been like?

Phil L.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

The bottom line here is to be sure that a community
of people, including the local inspector, know how to
use whatever is sawn for them.  In other words, that
building inspector must say,...

"If the lumber is [blah, blah, blah] it can be used to
build a house here."

If he won't approve it, the user of the lumber has to
plan accordingly.

Experiences?   Anyone?

Phil L.

[Button]

 Here in Connecticut  some towns will let you build houses with roughcut, mine included and others like one town over will not. If there was a problem it would probaby depend on the grade of lumber. They sell lumber at home depot that would never have been milled thirty years ago. IT would have been thrown into the cordwood pile. The wood in my barn is better than any you will find at the yards. Those hay burners live better than I do. Enjoy

[Don P]

The code does allow the local inspector to use his discretion and consider your wood to be equivalent or better. It also allows him to duck the whole issue and ask for independent third party grading.

Our inspectors have chosen the latter route. Presently they are discouraging the use of native lumber but our local inspector has directed several people my way lately to guide them through getting their wood graded. I have gotten to know some of the graders so I'm really just commiserating and handing out phone numbers. I point out that it is really just one more inspection and hurdle but it can be done.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Don P.

You just made me realize (through my tears) that,...

Yes,... (sniffle)
:'(
sawyers and the users of their... (sob, sob)  native lumber...
:-[   :-\
may have become a group of the disenfranchised - a ... (snuffle, whimper)...

MINORITY GROUP ! [/size]  :D :D :D

pHIL l.

[GHRoberts]

First, no building inspector is qualified to accept ungraded lumber. The code requires graded lumber.

Second, no building inspector can reject graded lumber.

Third, lumber does not need to be dry to be graded or used. Western lumber is usually milled and graded green (moisture content >19%).  In the west lumber might be put into construction one day after it is a tree.

That being said,

Dry lumber will cause less problems due to shrinkage. Being nice to the building inspector is better than not being nice.


It is not a big deal to find a lumber grader, have lumber graded, and get a piece of paper certifying the grade of the lumber.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

    :P   :P   :P   :P   :P   :P   :P
         :P   :P  :P   :P   :P   :P

Perhaps it is a time to quote chapter and verse.

Is there a Padre of the Code who can site quotes?

(Also, as we must be reminded by the implication of what GH said,
   making an inspector feel that you have him over the proverbial barrel
     is not going to be beneficial in the long haul.  Nice is good when
        dealing with those who can mess with your projects.   Their service
           is a protection to us all, at best.)

If local code precisely states the issue we are dealing with now,
   or if your local building inspector is known for chapter and verse,
      then just get the "piece of paper."

Phil L.

[Quartlow]

Chapter and verse is going to vary depending on what your doing and where you are. Here in our county, if you own 10 or more acres you only need a permit for a house. Outbuildings, barns, garages do not need a permit. When the shop was built here a building inspector stopped and issued a cease work order. The contractor tore it up and told him to take his young tail back the office and get his facts. Last we saw of him.

Go to the county south of me and you can't even build a dog house with out a permit. Trucked in sheds even have to be inspected.

[Corley5]

Up here anything related to Ag doesn't require a permit including electrical and mechanical 8)  Anything I build is of course ag related ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Alot of this inspection business is driven by banks loaning money and insurers isn't it? Take a piece of sawn lumber from these 250,000/day outfits and compare it to you portable guys and I'll buy portable milles stuff every time. What sells alot of the lumber coming from the big buys is the industry driven lumber grade system. Just like everything these days has to be stamped CSA approved or it's not acceptable. The city of Toronto and CBC investigative reporting has shown that CSA stamp bogus when they required folks to install models of 3 litre toilets to save on city water. The model that worked wasn't CSA approved, but the stamped model didn't. That's one case that suggests that as long as CSA has their stamp on it, it'll hold water, but doesn't know where or how to deliver it properlly.  :  ;D

[Don P]

CSA = covering someone's ...?

We are ag exempt too, at least for the framing. Wiring, plumbing and zoning permits must still be pulled. The farm lobby could be a big help  ;)

2000 IRC

R502.1 General. Load bearing dimension lumber for joists, beams and girders shall be identified by a grade mark of a lumber grading agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.

(each chapter starts with the above clause, just substitute studs, rafters, whatever structural framing is being discussed)

R104.11 Alternative materials,design and methods of construction and equipment. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code. Compliance with the specific performance based provisions of the ICC codes in lieu of specific requirements of this code shall be permitted as an alternate.
Section R104.11.1 describes tests and procedures to satisfy the official.


What can I say, we live in a place where bureaucracy majority rules. Informing the majority about the rules being written on their behalf might not be a bad thing though  :D

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

and to Don P. and to SwampyD  ,    what can I say?

when you're on, you're right on. 8)

great posts!   :P  :P   :P      :P        :P
                             :P  :P   :P      :P        :P
Phil L.                             :P  :P   :P      :P        :P

THe choir really liked those!

[Tom_Averwater]

The reason we have building inspectors is to protect us from unsafe building practices and to tell the county auditor they will have more buildings to tax.    :'(    Tom

[SwampDonkey]

The reason we have building inspectors is to protect us from unsafe building practices and to tell the county auditor they will have more buildings to tax.    :'(    Tom

And the underlying lobby groups are banks and insurance companies. They're the ones fronting the mortgage and paying out claims. ;)

[ely]

where i live i can build anything the mind creates without any sort of permits or fees. and i likes it that way too.

[beenthere]

ely
Just 8 years ago, that was the case where I live too. All that is changed with one decision of the local town Board.  :
I thought they would ease into it, but the Town hired a firm out of Chicago, and they know ALL the code and then some, so apply every smidgeon bit.   

[Jason_WI]

This is why I am building my solar kiln on wheels. Not taxable and don't need a building permit.

Jason

[Tom]

I don't know why it is, but every time a municipality buys knowledge or management from another town, that other town is always bigger, and generally, further north.  It seems to me that there is a lot of America's knowledge being lost by smothering the genius of the small town with the bureaucracy of the bigger cities.  Even the local TV station is trying to be so International that you don't get local news.

Florida has been ruined by Big City People who moved here and discovered that we are doing it all wrong.  They won't have it any other way but that they change it to be "right" just like the place from whince they came.

These folks don't know how to live.  Living is becoming a lost art.

If it were being done right, Chicago should have hired Beenthere to teach them how to build buildings cheaply without them falling down and maybe even how to hunt coons too.  Do you realize that Chicago doesn't have a weekend anymore.  they just go from one workday to the next until somebody comes along and puts them in the ground. :-\

[Buzz-sawyer]

Tom....good post...........
I generally put on my blinders and try to ignore that which I cannot redilly change......but ocassionally the Johny come lately burocracy natzis try to get into a persons life.........makes for an unpleasant day......................

[slowzuki]

Locally the inspectors can be as lenient or harsh as they want too.  The local guy allows rough sawn if it is dried and looks ok, he himself lives in a log home.  He always recommends dryed, planed and stamped lumber as being easier to work with but says if he disallows rough sawn it just makes people want to use it all the more.

Its funny you talk about SYP because all the floors in my parents house are made out of 2x6 T&G SYP from the US and the floor joists are 2x12 SYP too.  We send our wood down there and bring yours back  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Up until 5 years ago, alot of people bought green lumber from Crabbes to build homes, barnes, sheds and whatever. They have a kiln now. They used to operate down in Stickney when I was young. Now they're up in Bristol, which isn't much difference in travel distance for me. The push now for homes is I-Joists and OSB and I can't see it's any cheaper price wise. They're not going to last as long as these old 100 plus year old farm houses ripe full of rough green saw timbers fresh off the farm.  What gets most these old places is poor wiring and not maintaining the flues. ;)

[ely]

been there, i live 25 miles from one town and 12 to another, neither one is a thriving metropolis. i hope they do not encrouch upon us until my children are old and grey. i so much enjoy being my own person and doing what i like.

[wiam]

The push now for homes is I-Joists and OSB and I can't see it's any cheaper price wise. They're not going to last as long as these old 100 plus year old farm houses ripe full of rough green saw timbers fresh off the farm. What gets most these old places is poor wiring and not maintaining the flues. ;)

An just say joist to a firefighter and see if he looks scared.  Yes I am one.

Will

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Tom,

One of your Fine Fellow Floridians recently sold his highly-appreciated land,
moved to rural Georgia about 40 miles southeast of me.  With his new buying
power he bought 800 acres of sand ridge, pasture, swamp and river frontage.
His brother bought an adjacent 220 acres.

I became an acquaintance and heard the story this week.   I cut 24 slow-grown
pine logs for him to use around his small (yeah, sure) estate as he develops it.
Finished up this morning.

The family had just gotten too, too tired of the congestion and found some land that,
well..
reminded them of Florida - as it WAS.

And, yes, in the rurals of Emanuel county Georgia he CAN build with that fine lumber.
8)
Phil L.

[Lenny_M]

 Here I N.H. we can use rough lumber.Green or dry under the N.H. Native lumber law. It does not need a stamp, but has to be graded with a certifacate that the end user would summit with their building permit.
Most mills here have their own Native lumber graders,we got ours last summer so we don`t have to call bother woodmills for a peice of paper.
                                                                          Lenny