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Straight Line Rip Saw Choices

Started by YellowHammer, March 04, 2016, 12:02:51 AM

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YellowHammer

I've been looking into straight line rip saws for a while now, and have used another company's old Eckstrom to optimize and straight line some of my lumber.  I've considered old iron that needs refurbishment, I've talked to Diehl to get one of their refurbished bottom saws, and I've researched many of the junk and some maybe not so junk top mounted saw import models.  Safety is an important concern and many of the newer models have triple kickback fingers, while many of the older models are very lean in the safety department.  Other considerations are accuracy, longevity, control of the board (number of presser rollers), local service, warranty, and feed rate.  I'm looking at not big production rates, maybe only thousand or two Bdft a week to go through it. 
Does anybody have any advice or opinions, good or bad?
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Gary_C

I've got an old top saw sitting back in the shed right where I unloaded it many years ago. I've been told that people that ran top saws had to wear heavy leather aprons to keep from getting speared. Guess I should have scrapped it when scrap prices were high. But then again they can make Kevlar Aprons now.  :)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Glenn1

Robert,

Which new models are you currently looking at as possibilities?
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

YellowHammer

I'm looking at the Diehl ESL series, from the ESL 10 to ESL 30.  These are bottom saw models, relatively slow feed rate, 60-70 fpm (I'm doing 100 FPM now with my power feeder) but they will have been fully reconditioned and fitted with all updated safety features by Diehl.  These are very good saws, but expensive.  Bottom saws are inherently safer than top saws because the boards are pulled down to the table and caterpillar track, unlike top saws where the boards are pulled up off the table and off the track.  All with antikickback, like a table saw, but better models are recommended to have at least two, or better yet, three sets of anti kickback devices installed.  Older Diehls, Mattisons, and Eckstoms may only have one.
The Grizzly SLR is dirt cheap, but only has a minimum number of 4 pressure rollers, so has a reputation for more kickbacks and less positive feeding.  Most other saws in this class have 6 to 8 pressure rollers.  There is a Grizzly for sale on the Internet, but it has a reweld repair on the primary anti kickback fixture, indicating it may have taken quite a hit.
I've also looked at Lobo, Extrema, Laguna, all the Tek brands, Powermatic, Oliver, and pretty much everything I could find.  Many of the imports are very similar, but looking closely at the specs, they have important differences.  For Example, Powermatic doesn't have three sets of antikickback back, only two, however has a machined table instead of straight cast.  It is also several grand$ higher than some other very similar units.   
Right now I'm considering the Cantek C12RSH.  It has decent power, lots of safety, and is considered glue line accurate.  Also looking at the Oliver, which is a twin to the Powermatic, but for a few grand less.  I have a very good Powermatic repair guy, and he also repairs Oliver's.   
Also in the running would be one of the ESL series, if I could get Diehl to locate a refurb for me.
I've also looked at several older used Auction House/Craigslist offers units, and didn't like them.  It seems once folks buy one, they love it and will never sell it, they keep it until it bites them, or they go bankrupt, or it's been just plain worn out (typically the tracks) and can't track straight anymore.  I've also seen a couple that are still in service after 20-30 years and crank out wood every day, no problems.  Most of those are the very large commercial models and I just don't have room or money for them.   
Over the years, I've had various equipment throw pieces of wood at me, never seriously hurting me, and I don't like it.  I'd rather buy nothing at all than a worn out model.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Glenn1

To me, it looks like many of these machines are 3 Phase.  Do you have access to 3 Phase power or will you need a rotary converter?
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

tule peak timber

I run an old Diehl and have been very happy with it. Diehl thinks it is around a 1921 vintage and like you , I  only run a few thousand feet per month through it. Extremely heavy machine !

  

 
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

YellowHammer

Tule Peak, that's a machine!

Glenn1, all the ones I'm looking at are 3 phase, maybe 15 hp.  I've got a call into my utility company to tell me what 3 phase will cost, and I've also started looking at phase converters.  At some point, I'll probably convert the mill over to electric anyway, so 3 phase seems to be imminent.

I talked to a guy today who said he'd had only two kickbacks in 30 years.  Both were with old saws, and both hurt bystanders, not operators.  This guy tells me, the safest place to be is directly behind a ripsaw because of the shielding of the kickback fingers.  He says they protect the operator like a shield.  Both kickbacks were from edge slicing 8/4 slabs, and the edging got caught in the blade and flung into the antikickback fingers. The pieces of wood then "exploded" as he says against the fingers, and the pieces came out the side at a slight angle.  In neither case was the operator hurt at all, and neither was serious to the bystanders, although they were both bloodied, one with a small hunk of wood in his arm.  I have trouble believing that the safest place to stand is directly behind the saw, but this is his experience.  I have noticed that the newer saws have a solid metal, pivoting side plate on either side of the blade.  Does anybody have any other thoughts on this as it kind of surprises me?
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Glenn1

Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

YellowHammer

Quote from: Glenn1 on March 05, 2016, 07:06:48 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 05, 2016, 06:50:54 AM
YH, why do you need that?
That was my question too.  ???
Mine too :D
I spend an inordinate amount of time grade trimming boards in order to maximize yield and cost.  The more lumber I produce, the more I have to trim as a secondary operation.  When I sell the boards as lower grade, I have to reduce the price, and many times, all I have to do is trim a knot or straighten an edge and I can jack my price up again.  Unfortunately, it means trimming or dressing lots of boards.  I sell my common grade of red oak for $2.50 per bdft, and my select prime for $4 to $4.50. The increase in price is even better in cherry, as I can't hardly even sell a common board of cherry, but prime select is my best seller at $4.50 and up.  So I spend a lot of time cleaning up boards, sometimes several days a week.
Also, I've been doing a lot of quarter sawing, and many of the boards, especially center cuts boats, have to be run through a table saw four times, two outside edges, and two cuts on either side of the pith to produce two clean, straight edged boards from one.  I buy Sycamore logs for less than $0.50 per bdft and sell the quarter sawn boards for $6.  At that price, they need to be top quality, straight and true.  Same thing with my quarter sawn white oak, the generally have to be edged or straight-lined to sell them. 
I've been using a power feeder on my table saw for a couple years now, and it worked for awhile, but its costing me time now that my production has increased.  I've also been having a contract shop straight-line some of the boards, but they don't really know what I want, and only do one edge.  So they are costing me money.

So for all these reasons and others, I'm looking at a nice SLR.  Its really a grade edger to be used after kiln drying, instead of a sawmill edger used before drying.     
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

Thanks for the info, Do you still send out the lumber to be skipped planed?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

YellowHammer

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 06, 2016, 07:16:26 AM
Thanks for the info, Do you still send out the lumber to be skipped planed?
Yes, every week, like clockwork, I take a trailer load and pick up the trailer load I dropped off the week before.  It has really helped my production rate, and protect my hip.  Planing is a huge effort, 4 times to handle each board, (into the planer, out and return, flip, into the planer again, then out and restock).  So outsourcing the planing has really freed up a major choke point.  Unfortunately, I've found its hard to get others to straight line to my quality standards and also not leave a lot of waste on the floor.  It seems like a situation of if I don't do it, it doesn't get done right. 
So about every week, I get a load back from the planer, and I have to clean up a stack of low grade culls like this

To turn it into a high stack like this and double the value.


Just a few days ago, I put a short load into the kiln of remnant mixed stacks including red elm, quarter sawn sycamore, and some Kentucky coffee. 

All are either bad actors or will need the trimmed to maximize yield $$.  Kind of depressing looking at a load like this knowing most of the boards in this load will need to be trimmed with my trusty table saw instead of a tool designed for the job.  Kind of like whittling on a fence post with a pocket knife.


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

tule peak timber

First off,,,,your Culls look like my best stock :D I've look at the newer rip saws and will definitely rebuild my old one when the time is right. Used old saws go for pennies on the dollar and the only complaint I have about mine is that it needs more horsepower. The slr with two people on it is a great time saver. As far as planing, I set up two planers in line, then a sander- to help lessen time. There are a couple of members here with double-sided planers, and for me that's next. I'm glad your production needs are pressuring you !  Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

hackberry jake

A couple times a year, I see slrs go for scrap prices. I'd like to have one, but I don't know where I'd put it or how I'd power it.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

YellowHammer

The more I read on them, and talk to people, the more I'm hoping I can land a good deal, as prices are dropping due to the economy. 

I've contacted quite a few businesses and they are looking.  I had discussions with my local utility engineer, and he said there is no 3 phase within a mile of me.  I would have to pay them to set different poles down the line and he said my grandkids would still be paying for it.  I've already got commercial single phase to my farm, but that doesn't help to get 3 phase.  I stared looking at rotary converters today, $2,500 thereabouts for a 30 hp.  Ouch, but that will be enough to run my mill, if I ever want to repower.  Ain't nothing cheap. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

4x4American

It's crazy how much it costs to run power.  It's the wire that does it, I believe.  They run 3 phase power to the big mill up the road a summer or two back, not exactly sure how far, but I would guess a few miles, I wonder how much that cost em.  Good thread here ya.  I should find out what my old boss's straight line rip saw is, it has a laser sight on it and everythin...fayuncy
Boy, back in my day..

mesquite buckeye

You can build your own rotary phase converter with a used 3 phase motor for pretty cheap if you have the know how. I think they showed one in one of the old fine woodworking issues.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

ozarkgem

Quote from: YellowHammer on March 08, 2016, 12:25:26 AM
The more I read on them, and talk to people, the more I'm hoping I can land a good deal, as prices are dropping due to the economy. 

I've contacted quite a few businesses and they are looking.  I had discussions with my local utility engineer, and he said there is no 3 phase within a mile of me.  I would have to pay them to set different poles down the line and he said my grandkids would still be paying for it.  I've already got commercial single phase to my farm, but that doesn't help to get 3 phase.  I stared looking at rotary converters today, $2,500 thereabouts for a 30 hp.  Ouch, but that will be enough to run my mill, if I ever want to repower.  Ain't nothing cheap.
check with your utility co. They can run 480 volt single phase here and you can run a pretty big phase converter off that. They use this system on irrigation pumps. You can get used 3 phase motors for 10 bucks per hp here. I have a guy in Joplin build mine. I think a 50 hp is around 700 plus the motor. So about 1200 for a 50 hp converter with a little scrounging.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Alligator

I know you have probably seen these. There are a lot of them in your driving distance. Can't help with 3 phase, except "Genset".

http://www.lumbermenonline.com/find-for-sale/Straight-Line-Rip?class=Woodworking&category=Straight%20Line%20Rip
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

sandsawmill14

yh they have a yard about 30 minutes from me i have bought a few pieces from them over the years so far they have been honest but remember they are traders ;D they have equipment all over the U S . if you see one on the clarksburg or bruceton yards i would be happy to go look for you if you want. i dont know much about slrs but i can tell if its scrap or not ;) might save you a trip to look at scrap iron :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

YellowHammer

Well, I finally scored myself a used SLR, and had it delivered today.  Can't wait to open it up and get to using it.  It a 15 hp used unit, that I got for an exceptional discount.  It had an easy life, was a trade show machine, and only used maybe at four exhibits, with a grand total of 27.6 hours in it.  The guy who sold it to me said that the only thing wrong with it is maybe a rust stain where somebody had put a beer mug on it. 

I've already got a 30 hp phase converter hooked up to main power and operable, (finished that yesterday) so hopefully will have this up and running before long. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

4x4American

You definitely screw straight!  As opposed to screwin around.  Nice!
Boy, back in my day..

YellowHammer

Well, we've had a few good sessions with the new straight line rip saw, and the verdict is that's it's very easy to use and a huge timesaver.  We straight lined several thousand Bdft of some real trouble maker wood this weekend, including elm, sycamore, as well as some more stable oak, maple and buckeye.  I had been saving pallets of rejects up until I got the saw hooked up, so had a decent stockpile to go through. 
Here's a picture of one of the stacks before we started working it, and then here's a picture at the end of today, with a trailer full of edgings. 


 


 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Al_Smith

Conversation of three phase and rotary converters.

In a nut shell all they are is a three phase motor with a capacitor start single phase starting circuit which generates the third phase by induction .I've built about twenty of them myself .It's not magic nor rocket science and they are around 92 percent efficient .

Peter Drouin

Looks good, I was surprised to see all the short wood in the pile. 8' is the shortest wood I sell. Do you put all the short wood in a pile, all mix kinds together?
Or put the short in with the long stuff in the same pile of the same kind of wood?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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