skip the ethanol

pineywoods · January 21, 2009, 11:04:40 PM

I left my mill idle over the year-end holidays and then a couple more weeks while I battled a case of flu. When I started back up, I heard a loud clank and the motor started running very rough. Shut everything down and started looking. The motor was runnin on one cylinder. This is a 2 cylinder V twin kawasaki that I adapted to my WM LT40 many hours ago. Pulled the valve covers off and found the push rod for an exhaust valve was lying loose in the tube, completely out of the socket on the rocker arm. In the process of putting it back where it belonged, I found the exhaust valve was stuck about half open, looked like probably a bent valve, but after I persuaded upon it with some vice grip pliers, it finally broke loose and popped back up. I called a kawasaki dealer to get information on the proper valve clearance. When I explained what I needed and why, the first thing he said was "are you running ethanol laced gas?" Well, not knowingly, but possibly. He said and I quote " been running a small engine service for 30 years, every manufacturer is having problems with bent valves, bent push rods, broken rocker arms, busted camshafts etc, all attributed to alcohol in the gas. Steel valve stems in an aluminum guide plus alky = corrosion. Let the engine sit idle for a while, and the valve stem seizes in the guide. As long as you run it often, you probably can get away with it but best to skip the ethanol. I know there are some other forum members running this same motor, but apparently the problem is not unique to kawasaki. Just say no to ethanol >:(

Dave Shepard · January 21, 2009, 11:13:50 PM

I've been running high octane in all of my gas equipment. I've been told that there is no ethanol in the high grades, but cannot verify. Mid grade is a blend of high octane and regular, so I avoid it also.

backwoods sawyer · January 22, 2009, 12:41:21 AM

This last year when gas prices were high the state adopted ethanol, and when they did, they brought it in, in all grades. There was a rash of small engine failures. I went to the wholesaler at the bulk plant after loosing my big saw and a weed eater the same day, and they started ordering in "clear gas" aka "off road gas" all it is, is the old super gas with out ethanol in it. I use it in everything except the cars and trucks. I also add Stay-bil or sea-foam to the tanks of any rig that is not being drove on a regular basis. The ethanol attracts moisture and separates from the gas, so in two cycle engines you are not getting any lubricant. Every logger, fisherman with a boat, and tree service say they lost at least one saw or boat motor to ethanol, before the state would allow the bulk plants to bring in non-ethanol gas from out of state just for non-vehicular use. Seems the governor knew about the ethanol problem with small engines before signing the bill.
Older vehicles that were designed for the old leaded gas should not run on the ethanol either.

cheyenne · January 22, 2009, 01:14:50 AM

Just one more thing the government scewed up.....Cheyenne

Bibbyman · January 22, 2009, 02:39:18 AM

Here are two push rods out of a B&S 18hp engine.

Briggs twin V OHV problems!

Here is the link to what we went through trying to find out why the engine would not start and what the repair guy said about ethanol.

I try to put Sta-Bil in all the gas I get for small engines now.

bandmiller2 · January 22, 2009, 05:51:37 AM

Pineywoods,up here in the northeast this is "greenie"central we have everything in the gas except gasoline.I mix a little synthetic 2cyc. oil,and sea foam additive in all my small engine and tractor fuel.What works good is to mix fresh chainsaw mix often then dump the old mix in with the small engine gas.I like syn. because it seems to have no effect on plug fouling and works in low concentrations.Aviation gas is supposed to be pure I have never used it. Frank C.

Larry · January 22, 2009, 12:54:56 PM

I was talking to the coffee shop loafer crowd this morning after reading your post, pineywoods. One member suggested STA-BIL marine formula. First time I ever heard of it but most of the marine dealers carry it here along with some Wal-Marts. My buddy called the factory about using it in lawnmowers and said the recommendation was all small motors...just keep it out of modern cars. It supposedly solves ethanol problems.

Like I said this was the first time I heard of it so no personal recommendation, but I think I'll give it a try in one of my problem motors. I've had a lot of problems out of my generator motor.

http://www.sta-bil.com/sta-bil/stabil_marine.htm

Stephen1 · January 22, 2009, 04:01:12 PM

From what I was told it is not so much the ethanol but the moisture it attracts and bonds with. It is the actual moisture that causes the problem if the gas is not fresh. I also use sta-bilzer in all my small engines. On our last long week-end in the summer I buy a big bottle and start adding it to all my gas tanks. I have done this for years and never had a problem(touch wood) with carb fouling or any other over winter problems.

sawmilllawyer · January 22, 2009, 09:21:18 PM

Put Sta-bil in all the small engines around here, have for years. That is of course after my weed eater carb got gummed up with bad gas. The gas stations here are required to post a sign stating that ethanol is in the gas. I don't go to those stations. A certain station advertizes that it sells only pure gasoline, I go to that station for all my small engine gas and for my truck.

srt · January 22, 2009, 10:03:08 PM

On the farm, I had three small engines that had run as recently as August. I went to start them last Month, and neither of them would run right. Had to pull apart all three carbs and clean them. A mess of whiteish "gunk" was in them. After some reseaqrch online, I also blame the ethanol. I now put stabil and use high test in everything but the vehicles I drive often.

I spent a couple hours changing out old fule and adding new fule and starting other small engines. I was unaware you could even purchase gas without ehtanol. Thanks for the heads up.

Dave Shepard · January 22, 2009, 11:48:46 PM

Does anyone know if mix oil has any sort of stabilizer in it? I was of the understanding that the professional mix oils did.

ScottAR · January 23, 2009, 12:46:57 AM

I guess if no good gas is available, one could use premix from the auto parts store.
It figures out to about $16.00 a gallon though.

I've been using seafoam in 93 octane gas for my small engines.
A pint to 5 gallon. No ethanol gas here yet at least for 93 octane.

I did learn a few things about fuel a few days ago from a fuel pump rep.
Overdosing ethanol is often a cause for pump failure. Stations with signs of
"up to 10% ethanol" have been tested for up to 30-40-even 50% ethanol.

Easy way to check is pour a measured amount of fuel in a glass jar. Let's say 10oz
for easy math. Pour an equal measure of water in and shake up the jar.

No ethanol= even amount of water and gas. If your water level is much greater than
the gas, you have excessive ethanol.

Also, when buying gas treatment to remove moisture, buy one that has isoprophol
(sp?) alcohol as the main ingredient. Avoid methanol based products as they are
corrosive to fuel pumps.

Enough babbling... HTH

bandmiller2 · January 23, 2009, 06:46:44 AM

Dave,I know Stihl mix oil has stabilzer probibly the better brands do usally they will say if they do.That said I always add a little extra,usally sea foam.Frank C.

bandmiller2 · January 23, 2009, 06:53:54 AM

I've been told the big problem with small engines is their tanks are vented which allows the moisture in the air to be absorbed into the alky.Autos and trucks have sealed systems and are not prone to absorption.What would be good would be a sealing gas cap with a manual vent that could be closed and left between runnings with a full tank of treated fuel.Longer storage drain and run dry.Frank C.

barbender · January 23, 2009, 09:45:27 PM

I always buy the non ethanol premium many stations have available around here, it is labeled as such. I don't like the ethanol in anything, I think I would be better off running premium in our vehicles too (except for my diesel pickup :

) I tried that E85 in my wife's mini-van for a few tanks (it's a flex fuel) it began to run pretty poorly, I won't do that again.

easymoney · January 23, 2009, 11:37:33 PM

for some strange reason gas sometimes seems to not go bad for a long time. i got a chevrolet van from a cousin about a year ago. it had not been on the road for about 7 years.it had been started about once or twice a year to move it to another resting place. he said he had not put fresh gas in it the entire time. it started with a boost and ran fine.

tyb525 · January 24, 2009, 12:00:53 PM

The Woodland Pro 2 cycle mix I bought from bailey's has stabilizer in it.

Warren · January 24, 2009, 03:14:12 PM

Quote from: pineywoods on January 21, 2009, 11:04:40 PM
... This is a 2 cylinder V twin kawasaki ...

My dad had a John Deere riding mower with a 20hp kawasaki v-twin. It dropped or bent a push rod 3 times in the last two years he was alive. JD dealer kept accusing him of shutting it off at full throttle and causing a back fire. Never would stand behind the warranty. After my dad passed away, it went down the road...

-w-

beenthere · January 24, 2009, 04:16:18 PM

Warren
I've had that engine in a Deere lawn tractor since 1996, and never once had that problem.
Nor have heard of it as a problem the 8 years I worked for a Deere dealer.

What model lawn tractor was that?

Warren · January 25, 2009, 04:59:51 PM

Beenthere,

I think it was a 345 hydrostatic with a 48" deck. At least one occassion when it dropped a rod, I was using it. And I know for certain with that instance there was no shut off from high throttle, and no back fire.

We have ethanol fuel in our area (40 miles from Cincinnati). Deere dealer never said anything to us about avoiding ethanol, or putting additives in the fuel. I just assumed it was a bad engine and the dealer wasn't willing to eat it. After the third trip and $1,800 in total repair bills, and no sympathy from the dealer that there might be something else wrong, it went down the road and I bought a Dixie Chopper Z mower. Get done in right at 50% of the time, and the purchase price was less than the JD was 5 years prior. Has a Kolher 27 hp engine. Have had 3 years with ZERO problems.

Not to diss JD, but that particular unit had an issue.

Warren

shinnlinger · January 26, 2009, 03:09:21 AM

Hi,

What if you had some small engines you suspected you "ethonolaled" in the fall and havent run in a while. You did the ScottAR water to gas test and found them to be excessive water? Would a simple drain and replace before running be a sufficient fix, or should you pull a valve cover and drizzle some more oil on the valve stems or something???

ScottAR · January 27, 2009, 12:44:17 AM

Drain tank, change fuel filter, and maybe clean the carb out.
Oil change wouldn't hurt anything either...

If somthing don't sound right on startup, start inspecting...

bandmiller2 · January 27, 2009, 06:02:14 AM

A little off topic but close.I've got four older deere 2cyl tractors that used to start first compression but with the newer gas their hard starting and once the plugs get wet game over.Seems theirs no light end to the gas now.Have any of you guys noticed this with your older rolling stock?Frank C.

backwoods sawyer · January 27, 2009, 11:50:36 PM

Well there has been to major fuel changes since that motor was built. They liked the old leaded gas, You take away the lead and add a water absorbing additive to the fuel and they do not like to run the same. Try to find non ethanol supper and that should help. Off road gas for off road vehicles.