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cypress trees

Started by brady, August 29, 2013, 11:29:40 AM

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brady

   So I have got my hands on a large piece of property. There where some oxbow lakes back in the day that where full of cypress trees. They have since been buried by sand that was dredged out of the river. The sand is now being mined, and there are tons of these big cypress underneath.
        I'm looking into building a mill on site. I'm assuming the trees will be great slabed up. I'm a furniture maker with no milling experience. I feel it could be profitable milling my own wood, and selling lumber as well.
      Any thoughts on this. Or has anyone worked with sand burried cypress before? Any info or advice would be great....thanks.
Love what I do....do what I love.

Ianab

Get good at sharpening ?  :D

Some of the guys that have been recovering sinker logs from rivers may have more insight into sawing sand encrusted logs, but I'm thinking a pressure washer would be the first place to start, and then just expect to go though more bands, carbides or chains, depending on mill type? Not a deal breaker as long as the logs are cheap and you can sell the wood for a premium (reclaimed / buried etc)

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

fishpharmer

Brady, welcome to FF!

Should be an interesting project.  If your close to MS maybe you want to try out my Lucas Slabber on those cypress?
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Fla._Deadheader


I just sold the mill you need. It was built to saw river salvaged logs.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

brady

   I'm looking into a band saw mill. I'm sure some good pressure washing will be needed. I really like the woodmizer band saws, but I have some trunks as big as ten foot dia. I haven't found anything big enough to slab that.
Love what I do....do what I love.

Ianab

Lucas make (made?) a chainsaw slabber that could handle 9ft dia



The standard ones they advertise are 5 or 6ft dia capacity.  There are portable mills that will handle a 10ft log, but they wont slab it, just break it down with a swingblade or twin saw.

A swing blade mill with a clip on slabber may be an option if you have larger logs? The carbide tipped blades are easy to sharpen when you meet some sand....

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Quebecnewf

10 ft dia trees are impressive. Pics of those trees even more so 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Magicman

First, Welcome to the Forestry Forum, brady. 

The resulting lumber might be too valuable to use for furniture unless you have a market potential for very high end furniture.  Keep your options open and try to buy sinker Cypress lumber to get an idea of the rates.

Builders of high end "ski resort" type homes are always looking for one of a kind lumber.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

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brady

   my usual market is high end furniture, I really enjoying doing some unique pieces. Yes I have been looking around at other cypress products, slabs boards, flooring etc. They can be quit spending. If this wood is that good when I start cutting it up, then I would sell mostly just material. it would be less overhead n work just sawing, rather than building a whole new finish shop as well.
   I have tons of woodworking experience, but no milling experience. I cant decide what machines to start with. I really like the industrial wood mizer products. They are a bit spending, but im thinking worth it in the long run. I have so many cypress, this would be a career for me and my children and so on. Or do I start with a basic portable saw.
   Any thoughts would be appreciated.
thank you.
Love what I do....do what I love.

Ianab

I'd still be looking at a Swingblade mill with a clip on slabber. It's enough mill to saw on a professional level, but cheap enough to get started. Log handling, which is a big issue with large logs like that are less of a problem as the logs can be milled on the ground where they are sitting.

In the picture I posted above the log is an old Kauri Pine that have been sitting in a peat swamp for ~3,000 years. The slabs where being sold for ~$1,000. Expensive pieces of wood, but if you are making high end furniture, you turn that $,1000 slab into a $5,000 table easily enough.

Sure you might have higher blade and chain maintenance, and more log prep because of the sand. But the potential value of the wood makes up for that.

This page might also interest you. Their business is digging up old Kauri logs that have been buried for up to 50,000 years. They get top dollar for the wood and high end furniture made from it.
http://www.ancientkauri.co.nz/

It's sort of ironic they are mining the sand. Id say the logs are the gold.  :D

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

brady

wow those are some amazing looking slabs. That gets me real excited to get things going. Thanks again for the saw suggestion, im going to look into that.
    I have been looking around at log handling options. I would like to have the central shop, and bring the wood to it. That may not be as feasible for the huge trees. All these trees are on a 5000 acre tract of land. Maybe I could set up a few solor kilns around the property and slab the big ones on site, then haul the average size trees to a central band saw mill. Im trying to figure all these little details.
Love what I do....do what I love.

CCC4

These guys have ya pointed in the right direction for sure! Those mills seem excellent! Looks like you can 1/4 saw at will.

Are they mining the sand for "Frac mines", thats a for sure way to become a millionaire here...have silica sand on your land! Of course I have the sand they don't want  :-\

Fla._Deadheader

 When we started, we were selling to a commercial mill. We didn't get big logs, we found 35' logs that were 8" on the small end. We were told $2.00 bd/ft, but, never received it.

We decided to build a mill, since I DID have previous experience with owning-running a Circle saw mill. We were told it's REAL easy to turn a $2000.00 log into a $200.00 log, by sawing it ourselves. We were desperate to make money.

Our mill would saw 42" wide logs and make 37" wide table slabs, sawn through and through, top to bottom, up to 20' long, IF needed. We never had a problem selling these as a local market, in East central Florida. We got $4.00 bd/ft and up, according to colors and grain. More color and fancy grain, more money.

  We sold all pecky at 2"-3" and 4" thick, X log width, at $5.50 bd/ft to a local lumber yard. We also did some 1" for special orders, but, probably less than 6000 ft total. This was 180 miles from home, and we didn't want to step on toes with our lumber yard people.

There is a LOT to learn about sawing those grand old logs. As is said, they ain't making them anymore.

If this were my project, I would cruise the internet and talk to ANY Architect, Interior decorator firms, especially the BIG corporate outfits, and see if there is any interest. What you have to sell is NOT available anymore on any large scale.

I would also contact some filming crews, and see if they would do a documentary on the trees-logs. You might get a small payment for the program, BUT, you could retain all rights to merchandising and get world wide exposure.

Try to find the old Redwood markets and marketing info.

Me, I would lay back on sawing anything over 5-6' wide. I don't think you are aware of what those slabs will weigh. The logs will not have much stress, so, cupping of boards and crooking of boards will be minimal.

I would build or have built a 3" wide blade band mill. It will be a large mill, but, that's what is needed for a 6' log. You want a thin kerf blade, especially on large logs, so you don't throw away boards as sawdust. A circle mill has ΒΌ"+ kerf, so, saw 5 boards and you have thrown away 1 board as dust. That can get expensive in a hurry.

I would like to talk with you more if you are interested in building a mill.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

brady

Yes I am very interested in building this mill. I just have a lot of homework.....wanna make sure I start on the right foot. Yes I do think I will start with the smaller logs, then maybe work up to slabing the huge ones. Woodmizer has that large thin kerf saw that can do up to 67 inch diameter. Seems very universal, for larger logs, but maybe not high production. I would rather mill quality than quantity.
    I appreciate all the input thus far. Thank you.

And as for the sand, yes I believe its being sold as frac sand. I guess its very high dollar stuff.
Love what I do....do what I love.

thecfarm

5,000 acres? What state are you in? What is an Oxbow lake too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

brady

Texas. the oxbow lake is pretty much where a river makes a big loop, like the shape of an oxbow. almost a full circle, then it creates a lake.
Love what I do....do what I love.

Ianab

The idea with the swing blades is they are VERY portable. Haul them to the logs on a pickup, 15 min setup and you are sawing. Once you have slabs and boards these can be handled easy enough. Large slabs you might want a tractor and FEL to save your back. But then load them on a trailer or small truck and haul them back to your central base where you have the kilns and further processing equipment. Takes the whole handling of big logs problem away.

There is also the issue of learning to run a sawmill. I would suggest the swing blades have about the easiest learning curve of any mill. Although there are plenty of tricks and tips to get the best out of them, you can be sawing reasonably well from day one, and quickly train just about any decent worker to operate it.

You also have the option of sawing cants in the field, and hauling them back to a thin kerf resaw to get better recovery. Like FDH says, you can recover a few extra boards that way, and if they are high enough value it may be worth doing this.

You may end up with more than one mill, or sell it later and buy something bigger. But what it will do is let you get sawing, on a small but commercial scale, and get you product to sell, for the least outlay of cash. Once you have product to move you can better gauge what your best markets are going to be. Production sawing and selling it for flooring? Or using it to make high end furniture, tables, mantles, bar tops etc where you invest more in the woodworking machinery, and the sawing is only a small part of the process?

Starting from a blank plan is can be hard to work out exactly what path the operation is going to take. This way you are in business relatively cheaply (little risk). You will know a LOT more about the business in 12 months time, and adjust things from there. If that means selling the small mill, buying a WM1000 and some heavy machinery to move logs, so be it. The little mill will have paid for itself many times over by then. (If it hasn't then upgrading to a bigger mill will just loose you more $$.) Or will it be building a couple more kilns and expanding your furniture business, and feeding that with the small mill?

The Ancient Kauri business I linked to above is an example of what you could set up with the log resource you have. A lot of it is about the marketing, they have built up a reputation for that wood, and are getting top dollars for it, and even more for high end furniture made from it.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Fla._Deadheader

 Brady
You posted "trees". Are they really trees or pre cut logs ? If they are trees, you will have a LOT more smaller logs from all the upper sections, not really "tops" full of limbs.

Big city woodworking type shows is where you will find buyers, but, you will need photos and samples. Even European markets and "possibly" Asian markets, not necessarily China.  ::) ;D

I'm not against Swing Blade mills, but, they do make ΒΌ" kerf, lots of sawdust. I also have a Peterson Swing Blade Mill.

2 places to Google. "Steve Cross sawmill" also on Youtube,  and Heartpine.com. The second is a Cypress-Heartpine sawmill, that I mentioned previously, BUT, they have a GREAT website for you to study some.

This is high $$$ wood. Proceed carefully.  8) 8)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

brady

Thanks, I like the idea of a portable slaber/swing saw for making portable cants. That way I can maximize the rest of the material on a thin kerf saw. That will be a much less setup, and I wont need a huge bandsaw to start.
     The main thing would be marketing material. I have a good furniture clientele in parts of the northwest, but new to Texas. If the wood is as good as im hoping, I don't think it will be to hard finding a market....I just really need to cut a couple of these open too know for sure.

Yes they are all mostly standing trees....very few are cut.
Love what I do....do what I love.

CCC4

Ok, wait, what??? They are standing and buried in sand? If you have 10ft stumpage to be felled...Uhhhh I want in on it! Seriously where are you located? I can be there in a day or two of when you want the job done!  :o

brady

haha I know right...... :) Im really excited to get going on them. Im out of town in Alabama finishing another project right now, then its back to Texas to start sawing.
Love what I do....do what I love.

CCC4

Wouldn't you be better off selling tabletops and clocks out of the swell? Are you going to hire a faller or do it yourself? I'll do it cheaper... 8)

brady

   I was planning on doing it myself. Ive always been a one man operation, but I plan on going big eventually, and just be doing custom furniture while others do the logging and milling. It all depends on how soon I can market, and what those trees have hiding for me inside. It probly wouldn't hurt to maybe bring in someone with a portable mill to test drive a few logs before I fully get invested though.
Love what I do....do what I love.

swampy


This is FLA.-DEADHERDER, on my son's computer.  I have watched the guy sawing at that heartpine.com site. He took off a slab and maybe 1 board, then studied thenlogs for several minutes, to figure the best way to get the most moneyout of the log. Be very selective who you hire to saw those first few logs.

IF what your avatar is showing those 10' dia. bases of trees, THAT is another specialized market. I don't know if Tom's Cypress, in Florida, has a website, BUT, he had a nice market established in Europe. I saw his 10' long chain saw bar, the 090 Stihl sawheads and the huge,long flat belt sander and compressor to blow the dust away. I also saw the "cookies" stacked on pallets, waiting for advanced payment, before putting in a semi-trailer, for shipping to Europe. He is pretty old, now, so, you might need to get your website up and running, and, scouting out the Europe market.  You have much research to do, before cutting any trees.

Those wide stumps will be sawn crosscut, not long ways.
It only takes a little sawdust to become addicted. It's even better when you build your own. (HOMEMIZER a.k.a. HOMEY)

brady

Ya I cant wait to look inside and see the condition, and figure the best way to cut some of the larger trees. I have been looking at some swing saws and slabbers. It would be ideal to cross cut those large trunks, and make some huge conference tables, and market commercially. I havnt really looked much into market slabs over seas. I don't even know where to start with that. The slabs will be much more valuable if I can market my finished pieces of furniture.
     What I really wanna know is how much moisture is in these trees. The big ones buried in sand I would assume have been dead awhile. wondering how long its gona take to dry some big slabs and rings.

thanks Brady
Love what I do....do what I love.

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