New old tractor

[KBforester]

Traded in (even Steven) my 24HP Bolens iseki (g244) for an International 460 utility. Happy to have a tractor that I can find affordable parts for... although there are a lot more of them I need to buy! At least I'll be able to skid some wood now.

I might need some help fixing this or that. If anybody has any experience with them, I'd value your advice!
First task, leaky hydraulics....

[snowstorm]

i have worked on a 454 gas . i would guess that yours is gas as it has no stack. do the brakes work ok?

[KBforester]

Yes, its a 6 cylinder gas. Not crazy about it being underneath, seems so vulnerable.

[snowstorm]

the one i worked on was a 4cyl. exhaust manifold cracked broke in to. with the new manifold the exhaust went up. had to cut a hole in the hood. hole saw. new muffler and weather cap. the first of e10 gas must have used at least 10 fuel filters

[KBforester]

Brakes are ok. I drove it home, about 5 miles and the left brake stuck for a strech and started to smoke. Gave it a whack and it unstuck and stayed unstuck.

[Mark K]

460's are a good strong tractor. We had a row crop that we used to spread manure. Started all winter in the coldest weather. Does yours have two point hitch or three point? Have a TA?

[KBforester]

460's are a good strong tractor. We had a row crop that we used to spread manure. Started all winter in the coldest weather. Does yours have two point hitch or three point? Have a TA?

Its a two point, with what looks like a home made three point adapter. Top link is defiantly home made. I'll show my ignorance and ask, whats a TA?

[snowstorm]

toqure ampflifer

[Mark K]

On the 460's it was a lever on the left hand side. It's a torque amplifier, splits the gears. Some had it, some didnt. Ours did, we rebuilt it a few times. Had to be carefull as ours use to freewheel on the low side of the TA. Worked great for pulling hills with a loaded spreader.

[KBforester]

Yes it does. I was warned about the free wheeling in low.

[thecfarm]

What year is that? I would like to see a picture of the 2 point hinge.  My old NAA had 3 ribs tires on front,the center one was higher than the others,made it turn better.

[sandhills]

KB I'm a farmer so I like tractors, that one looks like a lot of fun.  Hydraulic leaks go with tractors, I swear since we started field work this spring my main "horse" sprung leaks from front to back, give it a good pressure washing and then see where the oil is coming from.  Have fun and enjoy!  (they do make TA eliminaters too by the way if you should have trouble)

[KBforester]

What year is that? I would like to see a picture of the 2 point hinge.  My old NAA had 3 ribs tires on front,the center one was higher than the others,made it turn better.

I'm not sure what year it is. The guy I bought it from thought maybe late 50s. Maybe I'll find out more as I get to know it better.

I'll get a picture of the 2pt (fast hitch) some time soon.

The tires on the front look like just basic 16" car tires. They have some cracking, but hold air. I'll keep them on their till one blows, then replace them with ribbed. I've heard it makes it steer easier, although I feel like I'm in Luxury with this power steering business.  Definitely did not have that on the little tractor.

[T Welsh]

KBforester, My first tractor was a 424 gasser, I liked it a lot. great little utility tractor, easy to work on and yes hydraulic leaks are common. My advise is to use it and get it functioning correctly and then start to pick projects that the budget and time will afford. things like a complete fluid and filter change, new hydraulic pump, orbital steering pump,strip the tins off and sandblast and repaint and decal the old girl. they are fun to restore and no all that costly compared to newer models. when done you have a new tractor that will last another lifetime. Good to see the tractor with a new owner. Happy Tractoring!!! Tim

[KBforester]

Tim- I was wondering about how to go about it. I intend to look at some books etc on tractor restoration, but I was wondering if "picking projects" was an ok way to go. Every time I see someone restoring a tractor it seems like they strip it down to nothing and rebuild it all at once. I wasn't sure if replacing one part at a time was some how.... not correct.

I don't intend to really RESTORE it, just fix it up so its functional and looks respectable.

Thanks for everyone's input!

[shinnlinger]

Old iron.. run it... thats what they were built for.  As for leaks, wait and see how much fluid you really burn thru.  $40 for a pail aint cheap, but I have found that leaks that appear significant rarely dip the fluid level that much.

[Clam77]

KB - the guys that strip them down to the bones and do it all at once are the guys that can afford to spend several thousand at once.

Doing it in steps like T Welsh said keeps the costs down and still lets you use the thing as you need to.  It'll still run without the tin on it- not so much stripped down.   :D

[Okrafarmer]

That model was made from about 1958-1962. We used to have a 340 and a 240, which were the smaller brothers of this model. Sometimes these IH's of the time period were a little too complicated for their own good, but it is a hoss and will definitely pull some logs. You can fix things one at a time, no problem. Hydraulic leaks will give you fits on any tractor, but like somebody said, check to see how much you are actually losing. If not much, you may be better off to check and top off every once in a while.

Our 240 we sold is still working up in Unity, Maine. The 340, I don't know, but it may be up there in Maine still too.

The TA lever-- if it works properly, is good. Do not allow it to get in a free-wheeling situation, and do not tow-start it in low range. I've heard that either of those two conditions are what typically breaks the TA. And they do break frequently. Using the tractor as the owner's manual  :P indicates will probably not break the TA. Use the tractor in high range all the time unless you need to downshift on the go. Then shift back up again as soon as you can. Never use low range going down hill, or when towing it or popping the clutch.

Be sure to use safe logging techniques-- them woods are dangerous out there.

[T Welsh]

KBforester, Run it,play with it and use it. Old iron is there to be used. Make sure your fluids are full and use it,find out what is wrong with it while playing with it and then start down on the list. yes,there will be a list. sluggish steering or sloppy.hydraulic leaks or a poor running or starting engine,(sticky brakes) the more you use it the pain in the a-- problem will tell you which one to fix first. As for painting her and making it pretty, Yeah its nice to do and they look great afterwards and it is best to do it all at once. But the draw back is, when you do and she is all gussied up you wont want to get her all scratched up or dirty :D. Tim

[Al_Smith]

Those old tractors if you keep oil in them and don't let them freeze up and crack a block will almost run forever .Now periodically you'll have to turn a wrench on them but it's not usually a big thing .

[davch00]

The first tractor I can remember driving it a Farmall 560. My grandpa bought it new in '63 and it's been in the family ever since. Although I'm sorta looking for a 706 or 806 I think the 560 will always be my favorite. IH built some tough tractors back in those days. As far as the hydraulics leaking, I know Hy-tran is up around $65 - $75 a bucket, but unless its just pouring out i would leave it be.

[Okrafarmer]

You should be able to get it for less than that.

[shinnlinger]

I just bought 5 gallon pail at tractor supply for $35

[davch00]

You can't get hy-tran at tractor supply. What they sell is suppose to be compatible but it does not have the water retention that Hy-Tran does. You have to go to a Case IH dealer to get it.

[shinnlinger]

Davchoo, 
Going to ask you to back up that claim, or is that a case ih specific thing?
The stuff I bought, and have bought for years says tractor hydraulic transmission oil.  I was under the impression the military makes all oil companies manufacture to the same specs for compatibility.  Do you want to retain water in your oil????

[Okrafarmer]

I don't have a bucket of it in front of me right now, but the off-brand hyd oils generally have a list on the side, of all the OEM manufacturers' specifications that that oil is qualified to meet. In some cases, (no pun intended), a manufacturer may have special requirements that certain off-the-shelf oils don't meet. So you go to TSC and look at the oils they have available, and see if any of them list Hy-Tran on the bucket, as being compatible.

[Corley5]

  I've been using tractor tranny/hydraulic fluid from TSC, Car Quest, WalMart etc for years in place of MF's Permatran, IH's Hytran and whatever Jd calls their brand with no adverse effects.
  Those old 460s are pretty good horses.  I ran a gas row crop quite a bit and liked it.  I should have bid on a 460 High Utility diesel at an auction once upon a time.  It was in pretty decent shape, ran good and sold cheap.  Hind sight  ;D

[DDDfarmer]

Those older IH tractors will run forever with a little maintnence and a few parts every now and then.  The early gassers are also easy and cheap to rebuild.

Hy-tran up here costs 80-85 a pail, never tried any other brand or source of oil.

I don't think the 460 requires hy-tran tho, our 300, 300 utility, 350 utility and 660 all have seperate transmision- hydraulics.  80-90 and hydraulic oils are used in those.

Now the 766 and 4230 have combined hydraulic-trans and call for hy-tran.

here is a list of serial numbers from tractor data.com.   so 1-500 was 1957 and so on......

1958: 501
1959: 2711
1960: 6883
1961: 9420
1962: 11619
1963: 11898
Final: 11911


4 plow tractor, fast hitch, TA and 50 hp pto

nice small tractor good find

[Okrafarmer]

    so 1-500 was 1957 and so on......

1958: 501

Actually, I don't think so. If there was nothing listed for 1957, that means the first one built was number 501, and they did not use the serial numbers 001 through 500 . A lot of companies began their serials at weird places. A lot of JD serials began at 1001. And as far as Cletrac was concerned-- forget it!

[Corley5]

Yup,  IH started all their tractor serial numbers at 501  8) 8)  I run tractor tranny/hydraulic fluid in my 300's transmission.  The early ones called for 80-90 but IH soon realized that it caused more problems with the Torque Amplifiers especially in cold weather and started recommending HyTran.  I run AW32 in its hydraulic system.

[gspren]

  Most of the older tractors are not as picky about their hydraulic oils as the new ones are although they like to sell their own brands. In the manual for my 1956 JD620 it says to use the same oil for the hydralics as the engine!

[Corley5]

Grandpa ran 50wt aircraft oil in the belly pump of his H Farmall to get it to lift.

[KBforester]

So I Just finished the first big job with the tractor, and the Hydraulics are worse than I thought. Looks like I'm loosing about 1 gallon and hour

Hydraulic oil may be cheap, but its not that cheap. At that rate I'm going through more hydraulic oil than I am gasoline.

As it heated up (on a hot day) the oozing started to clean of the scum, and it looks like its coming from the seems of the power steering gear assembly, and where it attaches to the tractor. I'm going to take it off and bring it to someone to rebuild. Its way to complicated for my first project.

[easymoney]

 i cant believe how rugged most of the old tractors were built. i have been to antique tractor pulls and watched the old machines. some soup up the engines to put out way more power than the maker ever intended and they take it. the drive train sure can take a beating and still live.

[snowstorm]

So I Just finished the first big job with the tractor, and the Hydraulics are worse than I thought. Looks like I'm loosing about 1 gallon and hour

Hydraulic oil may be cheap, but its not that cheap. At that rate I'm going through more hydraulic oil than I am gasoline.

As it heated up (on a hot day) the oozing started to clean of the scum, and it looks like its coming from the seems of the power steering gear assembly, and where it attaches to the tractor. I'm going to take it off and bring it to someone to rebuild. Its way to complicated for my first project.

if you dont have a case ih dealer down your way and need parts try ingraham equipment in knox. they have been a dealer forever

[KBforester]

 

Thought I would give an update. After a lot of frustration, I'm almost "done" with fixing what I'm prepared to fix. Although, something tells me I'll never be done.
-Power steering overhaul. Still not working quite right. Had someone else rebuild it. He couldn't tract down all the parts he needed. Not leaking anymore anyways.
-Paint: Just a rough brush job on the tin... sits out in the weather for the time being, might add a little extra protection.
-Used tires w/rims. 16.9x28. Quite a bit bigger. Tread is better. $300 was too good to pass up.
-McCormick power loader #50. This was on the tractor originally and was removed and left in the woods a couple of decades ago. The previous owner said I could have it if I wanted. Had the cylinders rebuilt. All the rods were pitted and or bent. New hoses. I'm not about to tolerate leaking hydraulic fluid this far into the game.
-new seals and gaskets on just about anything I could get a wrench to.
-Converted the horizontal exhaust to vertical.


Way more things than I had anticipated. Once I took out the power steering I knew nothing was ever going to be as easy to access as it was right then.

Not too bad considering I did most of the work in the winter with no shelter. 

Now all I need are some chains. The loader is HEAVY. I've gotten stuck 3 times so far (in three weeks) in about an inch of slime.

[gspren]

 If you want the loader to be useful you need to add some serious weight to the rear! Wheel weights, fluid in the tires, or a weight box on the back.

[KBforester]

Yeah I know it... I'm torn how to go about it though. My ground is so soft. It's pure clay and it saturated for like... 8-9 months of the year. I'm afraid sinking is going to get me in trouble. I think a box weight is probably the way to go. Anyone else have thoughts?

[beenthere]

That, or get 4wd.
Not easy to have a FEL on a two wheel drive tractor, although it was done for many years and still can be done. Takes a lot of rear end weight for counter balance. You will adapt to it pretty quick, and know what you can do and can't do.

[shinnlinger]

If your tires aren't loaded now get them loaded.  That make s a load of difference because it puts the weight right where you want it.

[thecfarm]

Don't let the people who don't like loaded tires keep you from doing it.  :  I have both of mine tractors with loaded tires and the wife's is nothing more than a oversized lawn mower with no loader. The weights needs to be in the tires under you,not up in the air 2 feet and behind you. Check around,I have a local tire place that comes right to me.

[sandhills]

I had a neighbor that had an old Farmall he used for pulling towline irrigation pipe, he took the wheels off, put a coffee can in the center and poured them full of cement.  It worked great but not too sure I'd advise it if you plan on doing much road gear time, didn't balance out the greatest .  ;)

[tractormanNwv]

They make a powder / dust that is used in the tires if you don't want calcium in them, what ever your choice.....just put some weight on the back, things will get interesting real fast when you start down a incline with a load on the bucket and no weight in the rear to maintain traction.......that is a good tractor, should last many more years if you treat it right.


Jim

[shinnlinger]

If you can find windshield washer cheap you can load them yourself but the calcium is heavier.

THat said I wonder if you could use something like used fryer grease (free, doesn't freeze, won't kill animals if you rupture a tire)

leave the grease in the sun, jack the back of the tractor up a bit, rotate valve stem to TDC and remove valve stem.  Make an "injector" out of a 3 ft length of 4"pvc with two clean outs on either end.  Tap one clean out and mount an air chuck and the other to an air compressor nipple.  Fill pvc with grease (or windshield washer fluid) and inject into tire.  refill chamber and repeat as necessary.

[beenthere]

 The windshield washer fluid is the cheapest (and not toxic) to add.
But a good counter weight on the 3pt will give traction to the rear tires as well as counter balance a load in the bucket thus removing some of the weight on the front wheels. Important (helpful) if going through mud or over rough terrain.

[gspren]

  If you wasn't so far away I'd give you a nice weight box that I used on a 2wd Massey. My JD loader tractor is 4wd plus has calcium in the tires and usually has a heavy 7' scraper box on back.

[KBforester]

Thanks for all the replies folks.

Any rules of thumb for loading tires with Tubes? I got tubes, not sure if I mentioned that or not.

Around here some of the blueberry harvesters are switching to beat juice to load their tires. Non-toxic and I gather it has a high sugar content so it doesn't freeze.

[thecfarm]

I always have someone figure out what I need for liquid and calium. There is a chart for each amount.
The Calcium War.  :  Maintain the tires the way you should and they won't leak. I've been around only a few tractors,never had one rapture yet. Calium is just salt. Not like  anti freeze. The few times we,My Father had trouble,we fix them. I am the same way. I've had tire trouble a few times,never tore a hole in one,YET.

[Al_Smith]

If that loader has much capacity even with loaded tires it won't be enough counter weight .A barrel full of concrete is a cheap counter weight which is what I have on a TO 20 Fergy .

[Okrafarmer]

For best results, do all three. Loaded tires (freeze resistant liquid of your personal choice), chains, and a counterweight. The counterweight does something that the filled tires can not do, and that is to actually remove some weight from the front axle. That will help your steering and axle components up front to not wear out so fast. Especially since your power steering is not acting too good, you need to conserve your steering system.

In Maine, you need every advantage you can get. I remember using a 340 utility with a loader up there, and let's just say, it was not much fun without a counterweight. It did have loaded tires.

[KBforester]

Well all I've done so far is make myself a counter weight. Its about 400lbs, which I figure is on the light side. I can already see a world of difference. Probably ok for utility type work, not serious earth scooping. I know where a few 55 gallon drums are just laying around in the woods. I'm sure I'm make another one at some point.

Can anybody make some suggestions on chains? I'm going to be using this tractor in the woods, mostly during winter. I'd like to get Canadian chains, but I'm afraid I'll chew up any bare ground to hell. Since I have two sets of tires now, what should I use in snow covered woods: small and narrow, or tall and wide? The big and wide ones are R4.

[240b]

tractor chains from labonvilles, the green ones, box pattern. the ladder type, like trucks use are worthless. I have a pair from norse they have held up well on the kubota.

[bill m]

This is what I run for chains on my tractor.

 
If you run the R4 tires you will need chains. The R4s are almost useless in deep snow.

[JohnM]

If you run the R4 tires you will need chains. The R4s are almost useless in deep snow.

IMHO R4s are useless period.    KB it's likely too far for you but the Massey dealer in Bangor does Rim Guard aka beet juice.  I didn't pull the trigger on getting mine loaded when I had my tractor was there and I think I'm regretting it a bit.  Next time. :

Good luck with it!

JM

[thecfarm]

I feel R4s are for the ones that put 100 hours a year on thier tractors.  : I  have no idea why those tires are even put on a tractor. Might just as well have tuff tires.

[chevytaHOE5674]

R4's are construction tires, made to get some traction but not wear out quickly on pavement or hard dirt as seen on construction sites, also they won't tear up lawns and such soo bad. They weren't made to be used in the field or in the woods.

If you have two sets of tires pick which ones you like better in the summer and then put chains on the other set and leave them on. Then when the seasons change you can just change the wheels and tires out. Nothing I hate more than wrestling with 300lbs tire chains ha.

[Okrafarmer]

R4's are construction tires, made to get some traction but not wear out quickly on pavement or hard dirt as seen on construction sites, also they won't tear up lawns and such soo bad. They weren't made to be used in the field or in the woods.

If you have two sets of tires pick which ones you like better in the summer and then put chains on the other set and leave them on. Then when the seasons change you can just change the wheels and tires out. Nothing I hate more than wrestling with 300lbs tire chains ha.

That is great advice. I hadn't realized he had two sets of tires.

[KBforester]

I had a feeling the industrial tread wasn't going to be great in the woods, but I hadn't read that anywhere till now. Good advice. I'll get a set of chains for the ag tires.

I like the R4s so far around the house, they barley make any impression in the yard. We have a lot of soft clay.

[beenthere]

Compared to the R-1's I had on my previous tractor, between the two I actually prefer the R-4's in the woods, on the lawn and for all the work I do (including snow plowing). The one thing I can't do is pull the moldboard plow as the furrow isn't wide enough.
But I don't regret having the R-4's for getting around in the woods.
I'll grant that they need chains on in the woods with snow, and there are times I have less traction than the R-1's (Ag tires), but usually not a problem and the R-4's drag a lot less mud around sticking to the tires than the Ag's. So ....... I'll not give up my R-4's.   ;D

[Corley5]

I'd rather wrestle tire chains than tires filled with fluid  ;D

[thecfarm]

I had R1 on my other tractor and I noticed a BIG difference in traction on a downward slope in my wet spot digging rocks and stumps. And other places too. I get by with them,but I brought the tractor used and am stuck with them,pun intended,for now. I noticed them no good tires on a lot of new tractors driving by. As I said on another thread,the only good thing I can see about them is they do pack down new dirt quite well.I would like to go back to the the tires that work very well for me,but I may have to buy new rims. Will check that out more when these wear out.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'd rather wrestle tire chains than tires filled with fluid  ;D

I just wrestled a pair of loaded 18.4x38 tires and wheels (about 1500lbs a piece) onto a tractor for duals and didn't mind it at all. They stay leaned up against a building so I just pull the tractor right up close to the leaning tire and then with a long pry bar just pry them up and over onto the hub and bolt them up. Took about 25 minutes to do both sides and never had to lift anything heavier than a pry bar.

[Corley5]

Any tire I've ever handled with fluid wasn't pleasant unless I had another machine there with a loader to do it.

[Okrafarmer]

I'd rather wrestle tire chains than tires filled with fluid  ;D

I just wrestled a pair of loaded 18.4x38 tires and wheels (about 1500lbs a piece) onto a tractor for duals and didn't mind it at all. They stay leaned up against a building so I just pull the tractor right up close to the leaning tire and then with a long pry bar just pry them up and over onto the hub and bolt them up. Took about 25 minutes to do both sides and never had to lift anything heavier than a pry bar.

That sounds like a nice tractor, Chev, based on the tire size. What model is it, and do you have a picture with the duals on? I love me a nice dually tractor, especially from the classical era! (1960-85)