First Time Sawmill Purchasing Questions

[tcsmpsi]

Yes, for the last week or so, I have been researching/determining (or, attempting to) the ever-so burning question (so I am finding), "Sheeeesh, which one?"

I have a few acres (and have had since the little rascals were about 5' tall) of planted pines who now have about 25-30 yr growth on them.  I've looked into other folks coming in and cutting...but, that is't going to work out.  I have only taken what I have absolutely had to over the years.  Now, with upcoming building projects, safety of house and other buildings, tree progress, etc., I am going to have to start cutting.

Certainly, I can use a lot of lumber myself, but when I invest in a mill,  it is going to need to hold its own water (having been in business over 30 yrs, no investment gets a 'free ride').

From what I have seen, thusfar, the manual mills are not intimidating to me at all.  I don't mind maintenance on one, but feel that should be a minimal procedure. 

One of my notable concerns, in what I have studied, is the tracking of the head on the frame.

Until today, I had it narrowed down to Hud-Son (there is a dealer within 50 miles), LogMaster (because they manufacture within 75 miles), TimberKing (though it is more initial money, it has standard what others do not and seems as though it is heavier built).

But, today, in finding this forum, I discovered Norwood 2000.  It looks as good (to me) as the TimberKing 1220. 

For those who may have knowledge and/or experience in any of these machines, I welcome any input.  Is the tracking as good as it appears from limited photos on the Norwood?  TimberKing?
The Hud-Son 30 and the LogMaster LM1 have what appear to be minimal logframe and tracking.  Though I could probably improve that, I have other things to do (like cut, build and...oh, yes still work my 'day job').

Since I have been in this forum today rummaging around, I am less inclined toward the Hud-Son. 

I REALLY like the TimberKing 1660, but that kind of expenditure, at the present, is quite out of the question.

The LogMaster LM1 is yet strong because of its nearby manufacturing and is  a little better tuned (in my limited knowledge opinion) than the Hud-Son.

Any experiences/knowledge of the Norwood 2000 and/or Timberking 1220 (good, bad or indifferent) would be quite helpful. 

[Kirk_Allen]

Not familiar with either the Norwood or Timberking. 

I assume what your looking at is along the lines of the Wood Mizer LT-10 or LT15. 
When it comes to holding there own, if your going to sell it when your project is done, which is common with the smaller manual mills, the WM sure holds its value. 

With that, Any of the mill mfg's found on the left offer quality mills. 

[tcsmpsi]

I have not ruled out the WM, but I am awaiting my info package from them.

My concerns with them are the 'monorail' system and what is seemingly a 'flexible' head. 

I would like to hear more about them.

[woodbeard]

Welcome to the forum!
Don't worry about the monorail a bit.
For one thing, the WM mills in your price range ( lt10 and lt15 ) dont have it, they are two rail mills like the Timber King. For another, contrary to some manufacturer's sales pitch, the Woodmizer's quality of cut is not affected at all by the sawhead " flopping around like crazy "  ;D

[Brad_S.]

FWIW, I think you are on the right track looking at the Norwood. If I were just getting started, that would be my hands down choice. Don't let the orange cheerleaders muddy the water on you.

[Tom]

With the exception of the LT10 and LT28, woodmizers are built on single beam frames with cantilever heads.  Because Woodmizer has been "king of Hill" in sales for so many years, other companies may sometimes use the cantilever head as a negative selling point to bolster their design.  Having been a user of both designs, cantilever and 4-post, I'll assure you that they both are capable of creating good lumber and I take nothing away from either.

As you delve into the products you will find that the cantilever also rests on 4 points.  They are vertically arranged rather than horizontally arranged.   The cantilever design allows for more clearance on large and ugly logs than a 4-post design.  Everything on the mill is adjustable to correct for variances throughout the life of the mill.

Most of the 4-post designs have no adjustments to compensate for one leg being out of line with the others.  But, then it is seldom needed because most 4-post mills are built on flexible frames and compensation is done by continually leveling the frame.

There are reasons, and good ones too, for the two different designs.  While one person may prefer one over the other, much has to do with the cost of design and development as well as the ease of portability and setup.

Most of the smaller mills are too light weight to depend on just their mass for strength and depend on a good base having been built.  The amount of flexibility in these little frames is the concern over how heavy a base is required.  It's not just the saw that needs the rigidity and support, it's the saw with a 2 ton log resting upon it that must be turned and generally "flops" down on its flat side.  Even the smallest mill must be beefy enough to withstand this.

Other concerns should be the availability and cost of parts, the customer support record of the company and the general knowledge in the real world that can help you learn to operate and maintain the design that you choose.  Buying a "one-off", spiffy, guaranteed-to-be-better-than-anyone-else's, sawmill may not be the thing to do if you find yourself being the only one in the world with one.

Along with a company's customer service and parts availability, it is important that you have at your fingertips all of the documentation it will take to maintain the mill.  These aren't automobiles that you can return to the dealer and give them a wad of money if it breaks.  You're elected to fix it when it goes down.  It may be at home, where you have a workshop, or it may be 40 miles from civilization, in the middle of a swamp where you were taken in by boat.  If you are offered nothing but an "operators" manual, beware.  You will need detailed specifications about how everything works, hose and wire lengths, blade diagnostics, bearing sizes, belt sizes, pulley sizes, chain sizes and lengths, every little detail is provided by a company that is concerned about your success as a businessman.   Look for the availability of 800 numbers with trained people on the other end that can help you in a bind.  Be concerned over the number of hours these people are available and where the warehouse is located relative to your time zone.

Look for the most horsepower and the most log handling capabilities you can get for your dollar regardless of the color.

Once you think you have a good idea what you want, go to an Agricultural Fair and watch them operate.  I don't mean for an hour.  I mean for the entire length of the fair.  Yes you will get bored and tired, but it's the only way, short of owning one, to learn the real differences and which is best for you.   After you have done this, you are ready to visit a friend who has one and watch him operate it for a few days.  Maybe something will break while you are there and you will see what kind of dilemma it puts him in.  Maybe he'll let you get a little hands-on time.

Once you know everything....  buy the mill and take it home, don't fall into the trap that so many new sawyers fall into.  Don't think that you know it all after a 5 or 6 weeks of sawing a few logs.  You are going to find that it will take you the better part of a year to become proficient running the machine and the rest of your life learning about sawing logs and the business end.   Every log is different.  Not only is opening it a learning experience but an Easter egg hunt as well.  That is were the really fun part of being a sawyer takes place.  Wood workers can talk about the beauty of wood all they want, but they don't get the opportunity to experience the wonderful sights we sawyers get to see.

[Dan_Shade]

a lot of your choice should center around whether or not you may be interested in custom sawing.  a small sawmill isn't too good for custom sawing.  I have a Hud-son Oscar 28, it's good for me, but I meet people who want custom jobs done pretty regularly, and the Oscar just isn't up to that challenge, IMO.

the best I've sawn on a day was 350 board feet over a 6 hour period, with a helper.  we could have sawn more, but we had to do some cleanup before we started.  if you have a tractor/loader, then a manual isn't nearly as bad.

I can see myself with a nice wood-mizer in a few years.  I agree with Tom, you get to see some bueatiful wood when sawing up logs.

[JimBuis]

I have been looking to be a first time sawyer/buyer for two years now.  The first thing I'd say is that ALL of our sponsors on the left here make respectable mills.  Some of them at the top of their product line are rather spectacular.  I'd like to buy about half a dozen of them, but will be lucky to ever buy one.

Since I work in my woodshop every day, I have had a lot of experience with table saws, radial arm saws, and band saws.  They are all good and each has its ideal application.  I tend to always lean toward the table saw.  My two bandsaws are too finicky to suit me.  There are SO many variables that affect the quality of the cut.  With the table saw or radial arm saw, once a few basic things are checked out, it is all up to the operator to make the cut right and proper.

Given my woodshop experiences, I am finding myself partial to something with a circular blade over a band.  To me a swingblade is a whole lot like a radial arm saw.  My first purchase will probably be a swingblade.

IMHO,
Jim

[tcsmpsi]

 ;) I have no memory of ever being bored.  Believe me, if I had opportunity to go to a show, I would easily outlive my 'welcome'. 

In studying the WM's design, much of the engineering is understandable.

Having been in the building/remodeling/cabinet building business for many years, I have produced tons of sawdust from the various finishing tools, working on tools, building tools and dealing with various dynamics of different woods and their tool relationship (as well as personal relationship).

The unique experience I have seen in this forum is invaluable and indescribeably appreciated. 

I still have a very small cabinet shop attached to my gun shop (my focus of endeavor for the last several years).

As I have ordered a new tractor/loader this week (replacing what used to be and knowing the need in moving timber around), I am having to initially be very cautious (I do have expenditure limits)  , yet focused in my attention to a prompt, yet well-researched decision on a mill.  I have already committed to the 'program' . 

Information of experience and expertise of all sides is very helpful. 

[dail_h]

   TCSMPSI,
   Welcome to the forum. You're at the right place now. I have a Norwood 2000,and do portable custom sawing full time. Full time sawing on a manuel mill is hard work ,but not undoable ,even for a guy more than a half a century old. i LOOKED A A GAGILLION KINDS OF MILLS BEFORE BUYING MINE ,ooops ,got videos and watched them till it seemed they all ran together.Eventualy mills began to disqualify themselves ,based on price,construction,available options,or the lack of them.
   Is the Norwood the best sawmill on the market------NO. But it is aVery GOOD entry level mill,and it's affordable ,with GOOD customer service to back it up.It comes disasembled in boxes,so by the time you get it sawing,you will have a good idea how everything works.
   Like Tom said,once you narrow the field some,try to see,or even try those mills that you are interested in ,most mill owners are glad to demo their mills.

   GOOD LUCK -----Sawdust fever is terminal ;D

[tcsmpsi]

I thank everyone for the warm welcome and sharing.

Brad_S,
Since you lead me to believe you are not new to milling, what about the N 2000 would lead you to its respectable first time machine?

Tom,
Thank you for the detailed information and confirming my thoughts on the WM machines.  You too, woodbeard.  I am not easily eluded by advertising/marketing rhetoric.   ;)  Actually, if I were to go WM, I believe I would go ahead with the LT28.  It is more money than what I am initially looking at, but it is also more complete in serving a more portable application.

Dan,
Yes, I am interested in custom sawing, though I am sure the Hudson is quite a useable machine, I believe my production will be better benefited by another.  Though, I do have an appointment next week to go and get a hand on a 30. 

Jim,
I don't know if I can readily express my own excitement in finally seeing the prospect of being able to work wood from the ground up.  Especially in being able to utilize sizes, grains, etc. for unique walls, ceilings and cabinetry, not readily available at lumberyards.

Kirk,
It would be the unusual prospect for me to consider selling the mill.  I might add to.  WAY too many trees around for it not to be utilized.

dail_h,

Which engine do you have on your Norwood?  Likes/dislikes?
I wondered how in the world I even got along before I reached the half-century mark.  ???

***

I am thinking that when I do decide on a mill, one of the things that I also need to factor in the price is a good supply of blades.  I am thinking a minimum of ten to begin with.   
Are there any "super blades" that are actually worth the extra money?

[Mooseherder]

I received the Norwood information packet and dvd yesterday. Pretty impressive machine for the price.
There are alot of attachments, package deals, etc. Then do you need an edger?   The Lumbermate w/Honda 20hp electric start without any options is about 6k to your front door.  Looks like for 10k you can have a nice package of options.  The more I think about it, the more I need to research all options and brands.  :P

[Frank_Pender]

I am sure glad I am not getting into this discussion.  I always seem to make folks upset with me.  So, what's new. ;D :'(

[Qweaver]

I think the biggest problem is that folks tend to like their own saw and so they talk-up what they own.   I have only ever sawed with a WM15 and it seems really good to me so I can only say good things about it.  Can I point out some things that I would like to inprove? Sure, but it may be that I just need to buy the next saw up in price to get those improvements...and this may be true for most of the brands.   
I'm now going thru the exact same selection process in trying to choose which swinger to buy.
With that said, there are some highly experienced sawyers here that can give you pretty accurate pros and cons if you can get them to do it.  It seems that all of the sponsors that you see to the left here built good machines...so making a choice is hard but no matter what your choice, you'll be able to make boards from logs :D

Quinton

[tcsmpsi]

Well, Gee, Frank....certainly it is not I who would take offense.  Not like you would be talking about my dog, Buck.

[Tim L]

I think everyone here is satisfied with their mills. I am happy with my Turner, so I guess we can conclude everyone of them saws wood and not one of them has everything. Find the best price you can and the dealer you feel good about and dive in.

[woodmills1]

on the manual mills don't scare me note, I can't find your age but even when I was a bit younger the HD part of my WM came in handy.  So my 2 cents    buy a woodmizer HD used for the price of the new one you are considering.  Also by the way I have just a few small pines you can practice on Ifin you like.   (see new blue stuff at general board.) :D

[Minnesota_boy]

Can I come practice on your pines too?  I like the one on top.  ;D 8)

[TexasTimbers]

I always seem to make folks upset with me.... 

I take offense to that! Are you directing that toward me?! You're always picking fights you scoundrel!  ;D

tcsmpsi - my  ¢2 is like a broken record. GET HYRAULICS if you can afford them. That'/s about all you need to know.  ;)

[Woodwalker]

tcsmpsi, Take that 75 mile ride up 59 and talk to Ed at Log Master. I won't be a wasted trip. Very well built mills,  parts are off the shelf, good people, too.

[Frank_Pender]

I researched for three years, before I purchased my first mill.   The question that came back to me in the process of searching was: "What type of lumber do you want to produce and how accurate and productive do you want to be in producing that material?"  For the production rate, ease of maintaince, variety of dimensions as well as ease of making changes for the dimensions I chose my mill.  In fact, I now own two of them.  Own the only two factory produced hydraulic mills that have been made.

Would I change? No!  If I can get them to produce a model several of us are trying to get them to produce, I will buy a third.  The only thing you can legally have one of, is a wife and sometimes that is one tooooo many! ;D  By the way I only have one wife, but 4 sawmills.

[jpgreen]

                                                                       
Tcsmpsi..

One thing I learned after getting many of the manufacturers sales packets, and the talking with sales people on the phone, I later found much of what I was told was a pile of bunk. No names mentioned, but some of these sales guys were full of crap and told me items about their equipment, and the competition that just was plain false.  So take it all in, and read as much as you can here on this forum.

By the way..

just picked up a sweet all original 1961 vintage Model 70 in thutty aught six..  8) 8)

[Dana]

My only experience has been with Woodmizer. I bought my mill used and have had great customer service from them. Help and advise is only an 800 number away.

[Part_Timer]

call the factories and see if they have someone close who would be willing to demo one for you.  Lay your hands on as many as you can and try to cut lumber on as many as you can.  You won't know for sure what you really like on one or the other but you should know instantly if ther is something on it you don't like or wouldn't want to live with.

Hands on cutting is the key.

Just my .02
Tom

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Frank is right in asking what you want to make.   That has alot to do with what mill you choose.   Some small mills can only saw a 24 inch dia log.   So if your pines out grow it in a few years what you going to do?   Pine all you going to saw?   How wide do you want to make boards or how thick has something to do with choice.   Are parts for the engine local?   Here if you have a Onan you are in bad shape.
  There are lots of good mills out there like the Mr. Sawmill I went and looked at a few weeks back.   I can still remember picking out my mill.   Even though she broke down Saturday after 1.5 million bdft I would choose her again if I had it to do all over.