ponsse/valmet/tj/deere

BargeMonkey · September 04, 2015, 07:05:23 PM

What is a "high" hr harvester ? Over 20k ?

barbender · September 04, 2015, 07:31:43 PM

Yes, I would consider a machine over 20K to be high hour. If it was a high hour, but fairly current model, say 2005 or newer, is one thing, but if you get into a high hour mid 90's machine, good luck. There are too many electronic and electro-hydraulic parts that are hard to get or no longer available for those machines. I have a buddy running a 2003 (I think) Ponsse Ergo harvester that has well over 20K. Original engine, pumps, and running gear. But I think he has owned it since it had around 5000 hours and he knows it like his wife, with all of it's little quirks. The computer system and the wiring will likely be replaced soon as it is obsolete. They were a DC powered system, now they are AC. He had this computer rebuilt, but it's getting where you can't get parts for it. Now, how would you like to get in that machine for say, $120K, and have a computer problem after 200 hours and discover you need to do a $15,000 upgrade?

BargeMonkey · September 05, 2015, 01:19:58 AM

Threads like this are the reason I enjoy the FF. ;) I see the piles you guys put up and it's clean and neat, 2 machines and no huge clean up at the end. The part that scares me is the huge cost and down time, which I have little of with a skidder and buncher right now. So something like a 1270C or newer ? I see a 941Valmet with 11k hrs and a 370.2 for sale for low 100's, that new enough to avoid some of the head aches ?

snowstorm · September 05, 2015, 07:59:05 AM

the newer it is the more complex it may be. as far as 20khrs being high a lot would say no. a guy i know with several grapple skidders says his are pretty well used up at 13k hr. a skidder has a lot harder life than a forwarder. as far as the computer goes. is there any computer that isnt obsolete a week after its built. can one get into ctl for under a 100k yes i did it and know others that did

1270d · September 05, 2015, 10:23:34 AM

It depends mostly on the type of wood a harvester was in. I don't think there is any wheeled harvester worth having if it's done 20k hours in hardwood. That head will be thoroughly used up. Probably lots of weld on the head, dents in covers etc.

We have had three machines from the early 2000's, one harvester and two forwarders. All between 15 and 25k hours. In the past three years or so, there have been a lot of wiring troubles. Not so much computer components, just wires going bad. Breaking from repeated movement, wearing through and grounding, corroding back from terminals. Some the casing was just hardened and cracked off.
At least for me these are the worst kind of trouble. With so much wiring on this ctl stuff it can be a day or two project to track down a gremlin. Then you find yourself standing on your head between the seat and a dash panel with a flashlight in your mouth and and a multimeter lead in each hand.

barbender · September 05, 2015, 11:58:19 AM

Bargemonkey, I am really only familiar with Ponsse machines as that is all the company I work for has for CTL equipment, and I am somewhat familiar with the Timberjack/John Deere machines as a lot of guys around here are running them. We don't see many other brands of CTL equipment up here (A few Fabtek machines that are getting long in the tooth also). For the most part, a CTL processor with 11K would be considered fairly low hour. Most of the owner operators that contract for us are going for machines in the 8k hour range and running them until they get up around 15k. My buddy has his paid for and just wants to keep updating and fixing it, I think it has 23K hours on it. It is still in good condition, but it is one thing to run a machine with that many hours when you put them on it yourself. And 1270d is right, hardwood is hard on these machines. One of our processor operators told me the other day, after cutting a hardwood stand, that he figures instead of bringing the machines to the shop for a fall service, he will just ask to get put in some hardwood- you have most everything replaced by the time you get done cutting it ;)

beulahland · September 06, 2015, 12:59:17 PM

First off I want to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. The knowledge and experience of members on this site and the willingness to share it is amazing.

Sounds like the two biggest issues are electrical problems and the lack of a real forwarder. My plan to stay a one man operation and only run the machine 10 hrs a week kinda solve both. It will take all week to move the wood with my trailer that the harvester can put down in one short day. Keeping the hours and hopefully break downs on the harvester low. These machines are used to running 10 to 12 hrs a day if not double shifts....problems come up quickly. If you guys on average see a break down every 50 or hundred hours that's down time weekly. If I'm only putting 10 hrs a week on a machine in theory it should be five to ten weeks between break downs on hard parts. The problem with my theory is electrical problems come and never really go away regardless of the few hours I'm putting on the machine. At the same time I think like snowstorm said the older machines may be a little less complex and I will have time to work on whatever might go wrong. I wonder how many miles of wire are in a 99 model vs an 03 to 08 model. Seems like there will be just as steep a learning curve on electrical maintenance as there is producing wood.
With that being said I don't intend to pick up wood with my trailer forever. If I can pay for the harvester in 6 or 8 months I plan on upgrading to a forwarder to balance things out a little better.
Thanks again everyone!!

Corley5 · September 06, 2015, 08:37:32 PM

My 99 Fabtek 133 has more than enough wire. I've had a love hate relationship with it. Love it when it's working right producing wood. Hate it when it has an issue. Love the fact that it's now all mine. That counts for a lot. Current issues are the AC quit last week when summer finally showed up. There's a short somewhere that causes the harvester computer to shut off and restart when the engine RPMs are 2100 or higher and the float, close all or saw button are pushed. It doesn't do it below 2100 :-\ and it doesn't do it all the time at 2100 or above. It's needs to be tracked down before it gets cold. I hate to put $$$ into the AC now when I'll be needing heat in few short weeks :

There is a learning curve. If you've got experience with heavy equipment you'll catch on pretty fast. Machines have their quirks. Two issues I had were learning experiences of my own doing. Don't buy cheap parts and this machine distills water in the fuel tank.
Make friends at your local hydraulic repair/machine shop. Consider buying your own hydraulic hose machine that can do 4 wire hose. It'll pay for itself. Get a good multi-meter. Have patience. When electronics quit but are working again when you get to the landing or by the time you get things opened up for testing can be more than a little frustrating. Change wires that flex the most first even if you replaced them once ;) ;D

There's a reason they fail :D ;D ;)

Four hours of production with this machine will keep my old C4D forwarder busy for eight.

snowstorm · September 07, 2015, 07:41:41 AM

i had to learn how to fix my ac. its not that bad. the r134 can leak through the wall of the hose and not just at the fittings. the compressor will not run if the system is empty and the hotter the weather the better it works and they dont make cool air they remove the heat from the air

Corley5 · September 07, 2015, 08:10:13 AM

My pump and clutch are working and are only a couple years old. According to my gauges there's the correct amount of pressure/refrigerant in the system. The condenser is free of debris. I've been told that the H valve or something such thing maybe bad. Or it could be the pump. It doesn't blow cold air.

snowstorm · September 07, 2015, 08:22:31 AM

expansion valve. it converts it from liquid to a gas. too much r134 is almost as bad as to little. low side psi 21 to 35 hi side 199 to 227 all depending on air temp. if you only had 10psi lets say then it s low on 134 if its 40psi then you have to much. make sure the temp probe in the evaporator is working and not freezing

Corley5 · September 07, 2015, 09:01:21 AM

It's in the green on my gauge. When we first started it was showing too much so we bled some off and then finally let it all out and started over with the correct charge of 2lbs 10oz. It didn't make any difference.

snowstorm · September 07, 2015, 03:13:56 PM

dose the compressor cycle on an off? is both the condenser and evaporator clean? dose it take air from outside the cab? mine did until i saw some hornets trying to make a nest in the hose

'

barbender · September 07, 2015, 04:06:31 PM

My low limit switch was stuck this spring the first time I turned the a/c on, so it is basically telling the system you are low on refrigerant, then the pump won't turn on. Just banging it around working on it caused it to start working again. I usually run my a/c a bit on sunny afternoons in the winter, the cabs still get hot from solar gain and it's good to cycle the system periodically. Which reminds me, it's time to fire up the preheater and see if it is ready for the cold ;)

Corley5 · September 08, 2015, 07:08:35 AM

The compressor clutch seems to engage when the switch is flipped in the cab. You can see the fasteners/screws on the end and when turned on they blur ;D

The condenser in front of the oil cooler and radiator is kept clean. I blew out the cab filter which was pretty bad but it didn't make a difference. I'm not sure about the evaporator. Can't really see it in it's box along side the seat. I haven't gotten as far as taking the covers off it. Not much room and it's hot working inside the cab standing on your head.
I ran a couple hours yesterday until the sauna was too much for me. I hear you on the preheater

snowstorm · September 08, 2015, 04:54:49 PM

a can of brake cleaner can do a lot. when i got the valmet the ac didnt work as it should. sprayed the evaporator and all was good

1270d · September 08, 2015, 06:15:00 PM

Even though the compressor clutch engages, does it build pressure? Pressure should build till the compressor ticks off, then fade till it ticks on again.

Corley5 · September 08, 2015, 06:31:14 PM

Quote from: 1270d on September 08, 2015, 06:15:00 PM
Even though the compressor clutch engages, does it build pressure? Pressure should build till the compressor ticks off, then fade till it ticks on again.

I don't know if it does that. We're able to charge the system and the gauge with the fill hose says it's good. Will a system take a charge if the pump isn't pumping?

Firewoodjoe · September 08, 2015, 07:45:17 PM

Dont mean to change the a/c conversation but I'm curious why beulahland doesn't buy a fell buncher. Cheaper and less electronics. When we added a buncher it double production. Just wondering.