Sycamore Logs

[GarryW]

Well I finally can put the new mill to a real test. A friend was able to get some free delivered sycamore trees from a tree service. A couple appear to have a punky center but most seem to be sound.







The large ones were measuring about 42" at the base and 32" at the other end at 12 feet. The green stick is my freebie from the Expo to measure 1/4 scale. They were off the scale but I'm sure we'll lose a bit in the some of the centers.

I did see a few screws in them, so I'll have to get the metal detector before I start cutting them. One had a cable in it where it was tensioning a telephone pole, we ended up cutting that off since the core was hollow. We end coated them with AnchorSeal. They do look nice all blue ;)

So, from what I have read, the best way to cut these is to quarter saw them. We are planning on putting them in the kiln as soon as they come off of the mill. I am checking with Nyle on the proper schedule.

I'll post some more pictures when I get to cutting these big'uns.  8)

garry

[Bro. Noble]

Garry,

You will have a lot of fun----Sycamore is a joy to saw and Quartersawn it is really neat.

Be really careful with those big logs !

Noble

[Bibbyman]

I think sycamore is underrated in my area.  Some of the stuff Mary just sawed out for barn lumber made 20' 2x10s FIRST grade both sides.  I started to take a picture of the stack of fresh lumber but figured it would just aggravate some people to see what this lumber was put to use for.

I've sawn and dried some for customers who wanted wide boards to make shelves, etc.  Most of it went to hobby cabinetmakers that just loved the stuff.  I figured they were putting some kind of stain on it to make it look like maple or cherry but they said no, they liked the light color.

Sycamore is strong and light and machines and works well and hold a screw real good.  What more could you ask?



Hard to see much detail from this picture but note second nailer from the bottom on the closest end.

[Ron Wenrich]

The biggest problem I've had with sycamore is shake.  It doesn't look shaky until it dries out.

They used to use sycamore in upscale furniture.  They used it for drawer sides.  Sycamore has a natural oil and it prevented them from squeaking.

They used to use sycamore for peach and berry baskets.  Now they've all gone to plastic. >:(

[ARKANSAWYER]

  STRESS!!  I see stress in them logs, but saw away any how.  Just watch to see if it is trying to jump up.  The problem is the more stress the better the Qsawn grain is. ???  Being Free will help with the blade cost of them screws.
ARKANSAWYER

[GarryW]

Thanks, I'll keep a look out for shake. I did notice some signs of it in one of the bigger logs, but it was the heartwood.

garry

[Bibbyman]

BTY,  I'd "full taper" saw that big butt cut log with the hole in the end.  

Saw down to the hole and then throw it on the slab pile.   8)

[GarryW]

Good idea about the taper sawing of the hollow log -- I'll give it a whirl. I'm now waiting for the metal detector to arrive.

garry

[GarryW]

Well we finally got around to cutting some of those logs. I scanned them with the new metall detector and it appears that there is barbed wire in all of the butt logs. So we'll have to dig that out. I found 5 or 6 screws that they have for signs and there are a couple more beeps that we have dug out yet. I marked the suspect locations with marking paint. Now, the logs are brown, blue (from the AnchorSeal), and orange (to match the mill of course  :D).

Since we had some other logs that needed to be cut first, we decided to take one of the real ugly ones and cut it just to see what we would get out of it. It was partly hollow and had a cable attached where the tree was holding up a power line.



Here are some of the pictures of the log and what we found inside of it. There were a lot of bee honeycombs and some great compost material. Everytime I turned the log, it dropped out more stuff. It did take a while to cut to a manageable size and shape. I took at deep cut with the best side and ended up quarter sawing it. There were some nice rays in a few of the boards. But I really could not believe how much water was coming out of the logs. It was really dripping.

Whoops, I should have leaned the mill back the other way. With the bumps on it, it took 3 people ot get it rolled onto the mill. And I almost lost it a few times ;), I'm glad that I kept up the loading arms.



If you closely at the next 2 pictures, you might be able to pick out all of the honeycomb. Glad that the bees had left a long time ago. :D





Fortunately, the rest of the pile is better than this one. And I only got 160 bd.ft.out of it. That was lucky considering how hollow the core was. I also didn't see any board movement when cutting, well not until I cut up a couple of the ash logs. :D But I'll be watching on the next ones.

garry

[Scott_R]

Could someone give me a brief description of full taper cut. Thanks Scott

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi Scott. Full taper cut means, saw at the same plane as the bark. Jack the small end of the log so that the blade is parallel with the side of the log and the slab is the same thickness throughout the length of the log, as close as possible. You might cut a couple? of boards from each side of the log and then finish cutting the log on 2 opposite sides only. That will eliminate "tapered" boards, although you could edge the taper off later. I used to cut the tapered boards in half, crossways, and then edge them. Had a seperate power unit on the edger. Get more board face that way and I NEVER had a problem moving the shorter boards. Is this clear as mud??

  The more I read this, the more it confuses me  :.

  Shoulda let the "pro's" answer this  :  ???  Harold

[Noble_Ma]

An old timer friend of my Dads used to call sycamore, buttonwood.  He said that they used to make buttons with the wood.  Anyone else hear this?  Even up North these trees grow huge.  That's a lot of buttons. ;D

[Bibbyman]

I think you've about covered it.  

I'll add a couple of thoughts;

Tapered boards are legal under the hardwood grading rules.  If a board is 7" on the little end and say 10" on the big end,  then they measure the board width 1/3 the way up the board from the narrow end.  So you'll get paid for something like an 8" wide board.  No need to re-edge them.

The first few boards off the outside of the log will normally edge down to a constant width.  It's only once you get it to the "Washington Monument" shape that you start producing tapered boards.  If you happen to have one face that is junk,  you can turn that face up and take the taper out of the cant right there.  Otherwise,  you wait until one face of the cant falls below say #1 common and then take the taper out.  

We taper saw quite a few butt cut red oak logs - especially if they have some kind of defect in the center of the butt end.  This method reduces the number of short boards.  Plus you "throw away" the log taper from the lower grade close to the center of the log rather then the normally higher grade outside.

I had one customer bring in a 6' butt section of walnut log.  It was about 20" diameter on the top end but had a clean cone shaped hole in the butt about 10" in diameter.  They had butted this part of and were going to leave it in the woods but thought they may as well bring it along to see if I could get anything out of it.  We full tapered sawed it and got quite a bit of wide FAS boards off of it.  I saved the center to show them.  They were quit impressed and took the center too and were actively thinking of what they could make out of it.

[Fla._Deadheader]

We get some large cypress sinkers with a hole in the center. The mill we sell to says bring 'em in. We get a short scale and were supposed to get some extra when the logs were sawed "around the hole". Never got extra though  : From now on, we keep the holes to saw around them. If the hole is nearly to the outside, we are keeping them, cut off at 18-24 inches, to use for table bases. Put some Spanish moss down for a bedding, get a couple of "mounted" critters to put into the "nest" and put a little indirect lighting and a glass top and watch yer friends get green with envy. ;D  Harold

[DanG]

Harold, what kind of $ are you getting for dead-head logs?  I know they are bringing more than green logs, but I have no idea what to expect, if I get a chance to buy some.

[Scott_R]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like this technique keeps the grain more  even with the board, giving better quality boards. Also it would seem to generate more pieces to edge. This would be a good choice for a log I just harvested. It  is a 26" small end by 12' yellow birch. It has about 5" of center rot on the butt. I also hauled out some large crotch pieces because a high end cabinet maker asked if there were any when I mentioned this nice timber tree. I'll let you know how it goes. Scott

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi DanG. There should be plenty of sinkers over your way. We get $1.50 to $1.75 bdf for the Cypress, Intl. scale. Could get $2.00 for bigger logs (36" and up). The heartpine goes for $2.00, same scale. He will pay $4.00 for sawn boards, but, he wants them sawn a certain way ? and will really pick and choose for the better price. Could lose that way !!!

  We plan on using some of the boards for flooring our own houses and selling some for $4.00 and up. You should check for old buildings in your area and try to make a deal for sawing them into boards. You mentioned a tobacco barn deal a while back, I think?

  That is made into flooring also and called "Antique Select" or some such. Check out www.heartpine.com. That is who we sell to. The guy buys timbers all the time.  Harold

[CHARLIE]

Just curious Deadheader. When you saw the wood from around those holes, what do you do with all those holes? Can you just throw them back in the river or do you have to be environmentally safe when you dispose of them?: : ;D

[DanG]

Charlie, I'm shocked that you would suggest such a thing!  When a log sinks, it's weight keeps the hole harmlessly on the bottom of the river. If we just toss the holes back in the water without all that weight, they float downstream and build up in the tropics. When enough holes collect, and a little rain squall comes along, all those holes form an "eye" and the storm becomes a Hurricane.
I'm sure that Harold already knows this, and disposes of all his holes in an environmentally responsible manner.

 ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

GOLLLLIIEEEE Dang. You got a career move in "short stories". :D :D   Did you check out the website???
  Charlie, I don't have a means, just yet, fer usin up them holes. I only get to use the cut off sections BEFORE we go to the mill.

  These sections are "water worn" just like sand blasting. The edges are carved away and really give the section a distinctive feature. Next time I go up, I will TRY to remember to take a camera, and TRY to remember to use it. :  Harold

[Jeff]

DanG that was a goodun.
 I think the best place to keep them holes is in the kitchen that way ma will have some big ones when she goes to make dounuts. can't have a big dounut without a big hole.

[DanG]

Thanks for the info, Harold. I'm trying to kackulate(cyphur) the feduciary statistics of this business. Does it make more sense to saw green pine for a net profit of 20 cents a board foot, or antique/deadhead stuff for $1.50 to $2.00 a board foot. This wouldn't be so hard, but the cheap stuff is hard to sell, and the hi-$ wood is easy.  HHMMMMMMM! :P

I did check out the website..looks like they've got it going on.  Trademarking their names for these products looks like good marketing technique, to me.

The tobacco barns around here are probably different from anything you've seen. They are large, distinctive structures, but are lightly built.  There isn't a lot of heavy timber in them, but rather a massive network of 2x4's inside, which was used to hang the leaves for drying. This tobacco was grown under acres of cheesecloth shading, and air dried in these barns, to produce the finest of cigar wrappers. The industry died out, in this area, some 30 years ago, and most of the barns(hundreds of them) have been lost to fire, or neglect.  There are probably 30 or 40 of them within 5 miles of me, in various stages of decay. Most are too fragile to climb on for dismantling, and must be brought down by pulling the supports from under them, allowing them to collapse, and destroying much of the lumber. A bandsaw is about the only practical way to convert this stuff into a usable product, and the labor of pulling all those nails takes away much of the profit. ???

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi DanG. If'n it were me, I'd hop in the truck and roar off to find the guy's that are-were sawing the barn and see what I could learn. I always figger that if somebody else is doin it, I can too !!!  

   I got a price sheet from Goodwin and it shows rough sawed boards all the way to ready to finish stair treads and flooring. The REAL money is in finished parts like stair treads, railings and such. It IS all KD. They have a big milling machine that spits out the boards and then it is graded.

  Ya MIGHT look for the loggers. We buck the ends and small stuff so the mill won't complain TOO bad. They will probably give you the short stuff or defective ( I love that word) pieces. May not be worth a bundle, BUT, it all adds up.

   The owner of the mill wants the logs sawed a certain way. I tried to saw for him a while back, but, he was in a sour mood and started yelling at everyone. I figgered i'm too old to put up with that crap. That's when I started buildin my mill. Would have been nice to learn his method. I'm sure he wants all the Q'sawn out of the log that can be had. Flat is OK and he sells boards that have (advertised) 25% heartwood.

   Up your way, Pine is the big thing in the cricks. We get mostly Heart Cypress.

   Dig around and see what turns up. We might move our operation up your way if there are an abundance of logs. Then we could REALLY set up shop.  Good luck and get back, Harold

[GarryW]

Well, we finally started cutting up some of the logs. We pulled out a couple more nails and screws out of one them and started to cut it up.

Noble_MA and family came over to watch. They ended up helping out a bit too. He'll have to tell you guys about the 32" long log that he drove home with in the back of his truck. And you should have seen the springs....






You can see I am using Arky's pencil method for large logs. The little hole near the end is where we pulled out a block with a large lag screw. We then rescanned the log. I wish that was all of the metal in the log. I cut through some staples for barbed wire. Then I hit a 3" hand cut nail that was almost in the center of the log. So that nail had to be 150 years old and no rust, it looked as good as new. But the blade sure wasn't after that one. At least we were pulling of some nice quarter sawn pieces. And then another nail near the heart. So that was 3 blades on the log.  :(

And of course I had to add a little humor while cutting. I end up flipping the cant over the back of the mill. I guess that goes into the "stupid mill tricks" section.



That was the crew helping to load it back onto the mill from the wrong side.  ;D Ooops, and this always happens when someone is watching.

[Noble_Ma]

We made it home safe and sound just a little heavier than we started ;D

Yes, guys, the tailgate still works :D  I'm hoping to get some nice 3' quarter sawn boards for the wood shop.  Gary and his crew are a great bunch of guys and made us all feel at home.  The wife got to see a bunch of cool ideas for Christmas too.  Gary had some nice toys to complement his mill.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Now, I haven't sawn with a band mill yet, and I haven't seen a log turner of any kind, work on any band mill. BUT, I gotta ask, HOW do you flip a cant with the log turner?? Is it a radical mechanism, work so fast that it "gets away from you", or, is it, simply "operator error"??  I have heard from others that the WM turner is rough on sawn faces of logs. Does this thing actually "Throw" the log over the stops, or, does the log slide around the stops because they may not be raised high enough?? Give me ALL the facts and suggested reasons why and how this happens. Thanks

[GarryW]

geez, this sounds like a test or something.  ;D and this was an operator error.  

I was nibbling the back end of the log to get it a bit smaller. There was a small sweep to the log so I was able to take 1" cuts off the far end. This ended up lightening up the back of the log more than I realized. So when I engaged the log turner (flipper), instead of rotating the log, it simply pushed it up. Then the springs pushed it back against the stops. But since it was over the stops on the back, the log simply slid off the back before I backed off on the hydraulics.

You can see the log turner mechanism in the second picture from my post. It is the black object with the teeth. We ended up using a 2x2 to help position it the next time to get a bite on the side of the log rather than on the bottom.

Fortunately, there was no harm done.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Thanks, Garry. Wasn't meant to embarrass ya. On the mill I'm building, I haven't started the log turner. I heard about this "Flippin the log" before, and am trying to figure out the best type of turner to build. Operator error is nothing to be ashamed of. We all do it. Thanks for the straight scoop. ;) ;)

[dewwood]

I have had similar problems with flipping cants over the back of the mill and then there was the time I just didn't raise the stops and pushed the cant right over the back (look around to see if anyone is watching).  I think the chain type log turner WM offers on their new mills would be quite an improvement.

[GarryW]

I hope that they offer the chain drive as an upgrade sometime. I like being able to roll the log either way. I can use the log clamp sometimes to do the flipping and other times I use both. Much depends on the size of the log and where it is sitting on the mill.

[Noble_Ma]

Here's a little surprise that I got when I milled up that little nugget that Gary gave me.  I nicked it with the chainsaw and saved a blade for sure ;D  Like Gary's nails, it was buried close to the center of the log.

[GarryW]

Noble thanks for posting that picture. No wonder my chainsaw had a worn spot on the blade and some very dull chains.  :(  Now I know what to look for -- barbed wire, rings, hand cut nails, screws, lag bolts -- that'll be fun cleaning up the rest of the logs.  

[dan-l-b]

Great thread Gary,  Reinforces the need to get my camera and posting skills up to snuff.  I sawed around a hollow oak log and ended up with a 6x6 with about about a 4" cavity.  Hollowed it out a little futher and made a bluebird house.  They took to it right away.  Noble_Ma  the "links you pulled from the center of that log are cool 8) 8) Any plans for them?

[GarryW]

dan-i-b,
 That sounds pretty neat about the birdhouse. I'd like to see pictures of that. The hollow I had was big enough for a couple of large varmits but I did get some nice pieces of bee honeycomb and great compost.

[Noble_Ma]

No plans for it right now Dan.  It's sitting on the front porch as a show and tell.  My son is still mad that I used his chainsaw to cut it out ;D  One that I gave him, I might add.