Mill Purchase problems (long and tending to rant)

[Furu]

I have hesitated to post this as it seems like a rant and since it has some critical comments on some of the sawmill sponsors of the forum I do not want it to run afoul of the PTB.  I am looking for advise from any who want to offer as to their opinion. I have come up with somewhat of a plan but want to see what others say without going into any details of my plan as to how to proceed.  I am going to be specifically vague on some details as I do not want to badmouth the companies on the forum and with too much detail it will become obvious who is whom. 


Background
Without naming any individual sawmill company I will say that I have been looking at what I consider the three big names in hydraulic mills (arguably not the three big names that everyone else would come up with but that is my terminology)  To keep this from becoming a bashing contest I will identify them only as companies X, Y, and Z. 

I have been looking at and evaluating these mills for about a year trying to identify 1) my needs, 2) my wants, 3) what I expect from the company and the mill they sell/market, 4) the best mill for the value/price that meets my requirements without giving me more or less than what I have determined I want/need.  I have not been in a rush and have actually wanted to put off the purchase until about this time-frame as my requirement for the mill is for the spring of 2014.  Some companies have a longer lead time for delivery due to back orders and that is fine as I have the time at this point in the plan. I have talked to all three companies about general questions during the past year and actually was able to visit one of the companies.

Now the problem
I finally decided that I wanted to go with company X. I spent about a month talking with the sales guy about my specific needs and clarifying questions and what the company had and my options.  I finally called to place the order and after about the first 20 words was told "if you do that you won't be able to have a mobile mill."  My jaw dropped.  I had been talking to them/him about an extension and a specific length for over a month in multiple telephone conversations and failed attempts at email clarifications.  What happened in all the detailed conversations that previously occurred that they had not mentioned this before?

I really like company X and their mill and we went back to re-look at the requirements to see if the requirements could be modified.  Answer NO.  Scrap plan A, first choice; company X out of the running.  I still believe they build the best mill. Just very disappointed in the sales process and information exchange that did not reveal the problem before I was trying to actually place the order.

On to plan B, Company Y and Z.  Both great companies, both build great mills. Company Z has such stringent restrictions on what options can be had with extensions and when they can be added and what you cannot do if you get the extension that they were removed from the planning.  Credit goes to the company that they verbally told me of the issue very quickly and while not obvious from their web site; information is on the web site which can rapidly cause a specific question to be asked that reveals the information.

The only company left is company Y.  Builds good mill, and the extension issue is not a problem (very specific questions to verify that were asked multiple times over)  Their mill seems to be the best mill that fits the requirements.  Good mill, extension is removable if desired for mobile milling. (YEAH)
As I have these multiple conversations with the sales folks at company Y about what I want/need I am told "YOU DO NOT WANT THAT."  I, of course, ask why they say that and they give me their rational.  I can accept their opinion or discard it.  Getting their opinion is a valuable resource as they know their mills the best.  Of course one has to wonder why the company offers an option if they tell you that no one likes it and they strongly recommend you not buy it.  I have even been told "YOU DO NOT WANT A DEBARKER"  That was a new one on me.  Everyone that I have talked to thinks a debarker is a great item and nearly a must have item.

Final Straw that got me to post this.
It seems that no one in the industry of mobile sawmills understands a thing about trailer tongue weight.  While I may be more sensitive than most to the issue due to previous knowledge and experience, I would expect a question about trailer tongue weight would elicit a better response than "It pulls really well.  You will not have a problem in that area."  When repeatedly asked again about the tongue weight one company (X) say they do not know and can't find out.  Another company (Y) tells me two different numbers.  One answer is 500 pounds and one answer is over 1000 lbs tongue weight for the same mill.  When pressed it is finally revealed that it is 1060 lbs (maybe???)  As I ask more questions I am told "YOU ARE OVER THINKING IT"!   

I am not over thinking anything.  Vehicles have max tow weights and max tongue weights and there are standards as to the range percentage of total weight that should be on the tongue.  Too little or too much both can be bad.  Destroying the tow vehicle, losing control of the trailer are all problems that can occur if tongue weight is not correct and/or without weight distribution hitches.  I was told again by company Y, "You won't be towing it that far what difference does it make?" How do they know how far I will or will not be towing it? They, for the second time tell me "YOU ARE OVER THINKING IT" as I try to get information on the location of the tongue jack and the breakaway box so that I can determine if I can mount the trailer part of an aftermarket weight distribution hitch on the pole tongue of the mill.  I am on the verge of telling them to take a hike but they are now the best mill to meet my requirements.  I can only think what a lawyer would do to a company if there was an accident and it came out the sales rep for the company told the customer what I have been told.  Luckily I know enough to know better, but it is very frustrating trying to get to the bottom of it all.

Sorry about the long post and the somewhat rant.  I put this under Sawmills and Milling as it had to do with the purchase of a mill.

Any ideas?

[beenthere]

Can't comment on any of your problems finding a mill. Mostly because of only "hearing" about one side of the discussion. Can't say if you are right or wrong, or if X, Y or Z are either.
Communication is often where most of the problems are at, as we hear and interpret different things on both ends of the conversations.
Keep working to get to the bottom of what you want, how you want it, and when you want it.

It will happen, just don't get discouraged along the way.

And stop or slow down "OVER THINKING IT"  ;D

[isawlogs]

 Most mills are not that heavy tongue wise.. why not bring a scale and set the tongue on  it and set X Y Z with real numbers and sleep well that night.   :P

[Jeff]

Instead of asking what the tongue weight is. why not ask what is the minimum requirement for a towing vehicle for the given mill?  If you buy a new truck, I bet the salesman can tell you how many gears there are in the transmission, but I bet they can't tell you the ratio.

I'm not trying to be smart or funny one bit when I say what I am going to say.  The honest truth, as I was reading your post, before you even brought it up, I thought, this guy is over thinking it. 

[NWP]

I agree, the part where you're ready to order and then you're told you can't get what you thought you could would be frustrating. As far as the tongue weight issue......well, it sounds like you're way over thinking this.  The sales people probably aren't the engineers who designed the mill. 

[Brad_S.]

I agree tongue weight can be a big deal but it also depends on the truck. When i pulled my mill with a quarter ton truck, the tail often wagged the dog and driving could be scary. When I got a one ton, i sometimes forgot it was back there!
Is adding a second axle an option? That really helped me with weight when I ordered my second mill.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Now that you've check with companies "X,Y and Z".....try " W.". 

[jdonovan]

Final Straw that got me to post this.
It seems that no one in the industry of mobile sawmills understands a thing about trailer tongue weight.

As I ask more questions I am told "YOU ARE OVER THINKING IT"!   

I am not over thinking anything.

Yes you are.

But tongue weight is only one measure of a trailers stability and proper loading. For most trailers the load and its position has MUCH more to do with the stability and handling than the base trailer weight. But a saw mill IS NOT A TRAILER. A sawmill is TOWABLE EQUIPMENT and it has been designed to be appropriately balanced and stable for towing. A sawmill is not going to have cargo added and removed that may change its towing behaviors. It has one single configuration, and can be designed around that one configuration.

Most of the WM mills I've worked with are VERY VERY VERY light on tongue weight vs overall weight. If you've ever looked at one of the bigger WM's the axle isn't square to the main rail, and it pulls at an angle going down the road. But yet seems to pull just fine.

If you are going to apply conventional utility trailer load, balance, tongue weight etc... to a saw mill then you'll never find one you'll be willing to tow.

[Bandmill Bandit]

Now that you've check with companies "X,Y and Z".....try " W.". 

If you have to think that hard on a new mill then you need to try at least one more company and it should be W!

When I was looking for a new mill the thinking came down to which model adn i screwed that up my self even though i do blame the dealer good naturedly>

[dgdrls]

Go back to X and ask why it wouldn't be mobile.  Then See if they can make it mobile,

Or go Option "M" ??

http://www.mightymitesawmills.com/bandsaw.html

DGDrls

[swampbuggy]

I tend to over think things too. Tow weight and tongue weight are two completely different issues. As for tow weight, they all should be able to tell you the weight of the mill, as well as the weight of any extensions you wish to add. Tongue weight is usually adjustable. I added an extension to my mill and the tongue got lighter, so I just put more supplies on the front of the mill to compensate. I could have moved the axle back, but I liked the tongue lighter for when I want to move the mill by hand. I also know that I am towing the largest mill I want to tow behind my truck. Since I have almost 10K miles towing my mill, I think I have it figured out! Good luck in your search! Dan

[Jim_Rogers]

WM tells you the towing weight of the trailer/sawmill. And I think it says on the ball hitch the tongue weight. I know on my mill it's less than 100 lbs, as I can easily pick up the mill and set it on the ball if I need to. And I have many times.

The mill is very balanced and will tow very well. I towed mine back from Upstate NY to the north shore of MA with a S10 pickup truck, in 1994. And I've towed it all over my state for many years, with many different vehicles. Pickups and SUV's.

I have a bed extension that I remove and can haul to job sites on another lumber delivery trailer. Set up on site and mill long stock.

Some bed extension, long ones, can be set up as a trailer as well. And can be towed to sites and setup there.

Good luck with your search..

Jim Rogers

[bandmiller2]

Tongue weight depends where you park the saw head on the bed, unless the manuf. has a fixed rest point when transporting. Frank C.

[Chuck White]

FYI: 
With my sawhead in the travel position, if I remember correctly, the tongue weight is 130 pounds! 

[barbender]

I'm with Jeff- as I was reading your post, Fury, I was thinking "He is overthinking this."  My Woodmizer mill has a fixed towing position for the head, and I would guess the tongue weight to be around 100 pounds. I'd actually prefer it had more tongue weight as it can get rocking around a bit fore and aft, but I think it is balanced to aid in set up.  It is balanced so well that I tend to forget it is a 4000lb machine, one time I popped it off of the hitch when on a slight incline, the mill and gravity promptly worked together to mash my hand into the bumper of the tow vehicle .

[GDinMaine]

I have been looking at and evaluating these mills for about a year trying to identify 1) my needs, 2) my wants, 3) what I expect from the company and the mill they sell/market, 4) the best mill for the value/price that meets my requirements without giving me more or less than what I have determined I want/need. 
Any ideas?

Why not share with us what your needs and wants are?  You are saying that no one is able to perform to your criteria, but we don't get what they are. May be you have some very specialized piece of custom-built equipment in mind, that requires a lot of modifications from the original mill designs.  Or....?

[manoverboard]

IMHO your not over thinking, I do agree and found myself doing just the same with my mill purchase. I understand this is a big purchase and why your beating yourself up. Good luck! Is there something I would have done different going back? Yup! Is it too late probably, I found it extremely difficult to achieve the exact specs I wanted from a single supplier, that is why we can modify after the purchase. The top mill suppliers each have great features, some better than others; again I say good luck to you...

[Magicman]

Furu,  It could be that you are deciding what your market will be before you develop your market. 

You certainly do have the right to design your own sawmill and expect one of the major sawmill manufacturers to produce it if it falls within their scope of sawmill designs.  I am sure that each of them have literally "run the gauntlet" when it comes to building sawmills.  Since their warranty and reputation is at stake, then they should be expected to advise, in their opinion, what will work and what will not.  They also have the option to simply decide that your expectations are not within their normal range of manufacture and refuse to build it.  Hopefully you will reach an agreement with one of the manufacturers and be able to get exactly what you want.

I did go back and read your previous posts, especially about sawmill extensions.

[sawmillhand]

you have every right to ask as many questions as you want. I mean its your hard earn money that you will be spending.I cant blame you one bit you have a need and wanting to buy equipment to meet that need. I have always been told if you don't ask the question you will never know the answer. I have seen that you will have some bios answers about things ,but that is everyones right to provide a opinion on a forum. I would go with the company that you feel your getting the best deal and the honest answers from.

[redbeard]

Good replies everyone and good of you furu putting your concerns out there for all the sawyers to put there 2 cents in. Tongue weight is not too big a issue for the single Axel mills there very balanced. Double Axel might be a different story. Hauling the extension and being mobile is going to be time consuming on set up. Biggest problem will be ground area at mobile sights and support equipment. Glad you put your concerns out there.

[barbender]

When I said he is over thinking things, I meant specifically in regards to the tongue weight issue. And, lime redbeard said, bringing an extension with or even setting up a mill with one built in on a mobile site can pose some big challenges. I would think my LT40 with a 12' extension attached would be about 36' long (with the hitch).

[Beaudeane]

Whether the salesman is the engineer that designed the mill you are looking at or not, he should be able to answer or get you the answer to any question you have about the mills he is trying to sell. Planning ahead isn't overthinking. A large investment for something that could only turn out to be a hobby should be overthought again & again. Sounds like your on the right track to get what you want but sounds like the salesmen could do some checking & passing you the info you are trying to get instead of trying to sell you the mill & options they want you to have along with a dream of being a thriving sawmill business just from buying what he's selling. Good luck on getting what you want.

[customsawyer]

I can't offer any thoughts other than the fact that with my LT70 I can lift the tongue of the mill to hook it up. The tongue weight is less than 150 LBS and that should be well with in any tow vehicle spec.   I have not towed any other mills so can't offer any info on them.

[Mt406]

By all means get your question answered or you won't be happy later.  Its your hard earned  dollars.
I bought a new mill this year and not been happy with the customer service. It was weeks late getting here shipping was a disaster, had to make a repair even before cutting my first board.  I could go on.
If they really want your business  they will get the answers 

Good luck

[Brucer]

I've done some trailer design in the past and I know about the recommended weight distribution. So I was a little surprised to learn that I could lift the hitch end of a 3500 pound sawmill. However, another mill owner assured me that they towed like a dream and he was right .

There's a few things that let them get away with a much lighter tongue load.

• The trailer wheels are much further back from the hitch than you would see with a load-carrying trailer.
• A high proportion of the weight (e.g., the entire saw head and motor) is concentrated close to the axle.
• The mills I've seen have a single axle which means they will easily follow the towing vehicle. A dual axle trailer "wants" to go where it's pointing and will try to steer the truck.
• Unlike a load-carrying trailer, the sawmill manufacturer has complete control over the weight distribution. For example, the axle on my manual mill was a couple of inches off from the axle on my hydraulic mill.

In this case I'd tend to trust a reputable mobile mill manufacturer to get it right. Of course that doesn't justify blowing you off or downplaying your concerns.