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How should I remove a walnut stump + log?

Started by Modat22, November 23, 2005, 02:25:46 PM

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Modat22

My dad had a walnut blow over at the stump recently. Its about 20-22 inches dia. The stump is half way out of the ground now. Should I leave the tree whole minus the limbs and just try to rip it the rest of the way out or should I just cut a bit above the stump and yank it out separately?

I'd like to drag this home and cut her up with my saw when I get it done and possible use the stump lumber for small woodworking projects or furniture as a latter date. I've never sawn up stump or root wood before and don't know how to prepare my cuts for that purpose.

Thanks in advance.

I'll take a pic tomorrow and post it to show you what I have. Its kinda in a bad spot laying over a dry creek.
remember man that thy are dust.

SwampDonkey

Be careful when cutting that butt log, the stump may spring back upright.

Fallers and Buckers handbook
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

If I had the equipment, my choice would be to use the leverage and weight gained by leaving the top connected to the stump to help get the stump out of the ground.

If you haven't the equipment, then cutting the stump off is the only other alternative.  You will have a time digging it out of the ground though.

Sawing a stump and root ball is a real challenge.  Rocks, clumps of dirt, and objects tossed to the base of the tree will have been encapsulated in the stump.  It is a real surprise when your sawmill blade begins to throw out black dirt with the sawdust when you have spent so much time cleaning the root ball.   Don't be surprised to find strange objects thrown against the tree years ago, like, bricks, marbles, tools, toys as well as the commonly expected garden tools, nails and miscellaneous pieces of unidentifiable yard trash. :)

It's true.  That stump could stand back up, so, be careful.  You will also find pinching stresses as you cut that will be other than you had expected.  Go slowly, use wedges and undercut the log some to keep it from splitting.

Ernie

The last stump I removed, I did with gelignite ;D

Just dig a small pit underneath, filled it with water dropped in a couple of sticks of gelly and set her off.  It was about 75 meters from the house and a big chunk of root ended up on the roof ::) ::)

The kids thought it was real funny, Mum was not pleased :(

We used to be able to go down to the local farm supply store and but whatever we wanted, I think they have changed the rules now. >:(
A very wise man once told me . Grand children are great, we should have had them first

SwampDonkey

The splitting part is what scares me if it's not undercut. The uncut piece can split away from the stump and if that stump springs up, the rest of the tree can take a spring roll and it's possible to catch that split peice across the chest or under the chin. That could leave a bunch of embedded splinters in your body and quite possible might cause the saw to come against you for a nasty cut to. The split peice that comes off that butt log can cut you good too. Think sharp, pointed and jagged edged things slapping against ya.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Modat22

I hadn't thought about that to be honest. You'd have probably read about me in the paper if I hadn't posted here.

I'll shoot a couple pictures. I gotta have the tree though, I have an obsession with black walnut wood, I collect it when I can.

Friends of mine brought me 3 truck loads of firewood last year from (you guessed it) a HUGE black walnut tree they hacked up, it only had 1 inch of sapwood outside a dark brown mass of lovely wood. I still weep when I go out and get a couple sticks to throw in the stove.  :-[
remember man that thy are dust.

beenthere

The pics will help. If you want a challenge, then take some of the root ball with the butt log. As Tom knows so well, there will be the wildest assortment of in-grown debris buried within the root ball, but can be some most fabulous grain patterns such that the fanciest gun-stocks have been made from.

If cutting above the root ball, I'd treat it just like a leaning tree i.e. undercut to the hinge area, plunge cut through and then to the hinge, then cut the holding wood (that is in tension) last and keep a couple wedges in each side to have a feel for where the stresses are and how the tree wants to release when the final cut is made. A tight wedge means something, as much as a loose wedge means something. Between the two, one can get a pretty good indication what is 'going' to happen, so there are no (or few) surprises.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Tom

Modat22

Even without a sawmill, you can split (rive) some beautiful boards out of that firewood that will clean up real good in a planer.   This might be a good opportunity to get a Froe.  You may be amazed at how easily you can produce the boards.

You can make a good Froe form an old leaf spring inexpensively too. :)

Modat22

I've cut a few small chunks from the firewood turned them on the lathe for fill plugs and pen blanks but the pieces are all 16-18 inches long and already split or are you talking about the blown down tree?
remember man that thy are dust.

Tom

I was talking about the firewood your friends gave to you.  But, you might find that a Froe will come in handy on pieces of that tree too.   We tend to forget what a good job that Axes, Froes, hand saws, hand planes, draw knives and other hand tools will do.  They certainly still have their place.  :)

SwampDonkey

An old gent I once knew made all kinds of stuff with black walnut and I bet most was under 18 inches long. Inlays for cribbage board and checker board on the surface of a card table with walnut faced drawers. Another is inlays for hope chests, jewelery boxes, frames. endless :)  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Modat22

thats a good thought,  I'll give it a try. Aren't froes also used to make  shingles? I can't place what the tool looked like. If one can be made with an old leaf spring I'll have to give it a try.
remember man that thy are dust.

Tom

Yes, shingles and boards too.  Many of the cabinet shops of old rived boards for their work.  the logs were short and varied in diameters but were split.    It's a good way to turn a log into all vertical grain boards. 

http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/jdfroe/top_index.htm

Fla._Deadheader


We used to get Cherry logs that were "Bucked" defects. Would split them like firewood into wedges. THEN, you can center split the oieces and put them together edge to edge and make "Book matched" pieces. REALLY pretty stuff, sometimes  8) ;)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

rebocardo

If you try to remove the whole trunk in one shot you stand a good chance of cracking it right down the middle and it will not show up until you start sawing. If because of location (no branches supporting it and too high off the ground) that does not allow bucking it in 8 foot lengthes, here is how I would do it.

Throw some good sized branches 3-4 inches thick under the trunk so when it drops it does not land flat on the ground. This makes rolling the trunk easier once on the ground and prevents it from being dirt embedded.

Wrap the trunk in chain about three feet from where you are working in case of a barberchair or a bad split. If I think the trunk will roll, I cable it off so it can not roll forwards or backwards much and leave the cable with only slight tension. Cut so the main part of the trunk is to the right and the stump is to the left. Do NOT stand on the trunk, stump, ball,  or roots. The main idea is to be behind the stump if it does roll and so you do not drop the trunk on yourself.

On a 20 inch tree make 4-5 under cuts about 3 inches part on the underside of the trunk about three  inches deep. Do the same on the top. On the underside make a triangle/wedge cut about 1/3 of the way through, in the middle of these cuts, but, not enough to cause trunk movement. Make a small matching one on the top. To the right of that, make the multiple top cuts a little deeper and watch for the trunk closing up. Just before it does, remove the saw. Go back to the top inverted wedge cut and make it much larger until you have just about some trunk movement.

Now where the two wedges will met, go straight through from the top as fast as you can and once the trunk starts to drop stop the saw, then remove it. It might or might not take the saw for a little ride. If done right it will break cleanly and drop down or  fold down until it touches the ground (ideal) and then you just cut the remaining "hinge".

I developed this method because using the OSHA recommended way by doing it undercut it

1) always brought my saw down with the trunk and jammed it. The worse is having it squish the bar between the trunk and stump.

2) I do not want to be bending down or on my knees dropping 2-3 tons of wood on the ground a foot away from me with my head near the trunk or stump.

Besides lessening jamming, the underside wedge cut will allow the trunk to slide under the stump, so be ready for that and watch your feet.

Like I said previously, ideally you gently ease the whole trunk to the ground, then once it touches you cut the remaining "hinge" without splitting the tree or causing an impact. So, your triangle wedge on the underside has to be at least 45 degrees so the trunk has enough space to fold down.

Depending on the tree the stump can literally jump back up or more likely begin a slow creep back up. If it has been blown over for any length of time and it has rained it most likely will not go anywhere.

This is not OSHA approved, just a method I developed, it wastes wood, use at your own risk. I have used it to drop blow overs at lot bigger then 20 inches.  8)

Modat22

heres some photos. Not real good ones due to weeds but here they are.



its bigger than I thought, Looks like I have 10 feet open trunk 28 inches at the small end. (could be a nice log!)



can't really see whats going on but you can see the root mass hanging out.



canopy all tangled up over a dry creek.


Not related to this tree I noticed a 30 plus inch cedar in a dozer pile (makes mental note)



Heres a 42 inch elm I found laying as well, Looks kinda rough should I try to mess with this one as well?
remember man that thy are dust.

Minnesota_boy

Quote from: Modat22 on November 23, 2005, 03:58:51 PM
Friends of mine brought me 3 truck loads of firewood last year from (you guessed it) a HUGE black walnut tree they hacked up, it only had 1 inch of sapwood outside a dark brown mass of lovely wood. I still weep when I go out and get a couple sticks to throw in the stove.  :-[

I'd put that firewood on my Woodmizer and saw it up.  You may lose a bit of it as you don't have the toe boards to make it level and it's hard to level it as you clamp unless you have a good helper to hold it level.  I have the older flip-clamp and would rest the piece of wood on the tube the clamp rides on and saw until I have a good flat, then put a board on the deck of the mill and another sacrificial board against the log stops and pretend I was sawing an 8 foot piece, with the walnut just happening to be attached to the side of the board i was sawing.  Clamping might get to be a problem, but I'd use a second board behind the chunk for the clamp to get a hold on.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

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