What to do?

[Paul_H]

I have a customer,that is a building contractor.He has a 1000 bf of 1x8 Douglas Fir that he wants me to run through the planer for T&G flooring.The wood hasn't been kiln dried,but was stickered for a year or so,outside.

I am not sure if it will work out or not.The piece he dropped off a few weeks ago,has warped already,just being in my house.I mentioned the problems he could encounter,and told him that it should sit in his house a month or two before laying it down.He said he will lay it down right after it is run through the planer.

It has been freezing hard here the past week,and I am worried that the floor will walk all over,and I'll be blamed.
Tom,
was that you,that had said you give your customers a sheet with information on how to care for their wood after you mill it?

I don't want to turn away business,and the planer is set to do his flooring,with relief grooves,but..

Will it lift,and shrink? What else can happen?

[Ron Wenrich]

The information sheet sounds like a good deal.  It may also be useful to cover your butt if someone tries to come back on your work.  Afterall, you can't control what a piece of wood wants to do.

I'm not a builder, but I'm pretty sure that you want to put flooring in the house for a couple of weeks before it is put down.  This allows for the wood to get acclimated to the house.  Those winter time moisture contents are pretty low for wood.

[Norm]

If the wood is warping now you can almost bet that it is not dry enough to make flooring out of, I milled hardwood flooring for our house and most of my problems came from wood that was not dry and stabilized. That being said the old saying "the customer is always right" comes to mind. You might try to get him to sticker it inside for awhile before he installs it, at least a couple of weeks. This time of year wood inside drys pretty fast. I hate to turn down business but sometimes it makes more sense then to have your reputation get slammed for something that wasn't your fault.

P.S. If this guy is a building contractor of any skill he would know better than to do this, don't have him build your next house  ;)

[Scott_R]

Paul, I am a builder. Assuming that the fir is currently at 15% MC and the final indoor MC will end up at 7% then the 1X8 will shrink by .1 inches. This would be considered to much gap by any builder. He should sticker the stock in the house for 3 weeks with a fan running on the stack. This could be done after the milling has been done. A few unknowledgeable builders give the rest of us a bad name. Good luck in trying to educate the customer. Scott

[Brian_Bailey]

If it was me, I wood dry the wood before it was milled. Less headaches that way.

[Noble_Ma]

Paul,

I was a builder for many years and have never seen a wood floor that didn't move/shrink with the seasons.  (especially if there's a wood stove in the house)   Now keep in mind that I'm talking about material that was kiln dried and left in the house to stabilize.  I agree with the rest of the posts here that you need to stress this to the builder, who really should already know this.  The customer is always right as long as it doesn't make you liable for his errors :(

[Don P]

It would certainly be best if he had dry stock. The problem I run in to with material dressed above its final moisture content is that it does not all shrink the same amount as it finishes drying. One board may have mostly quatersawn grain and will shrink half as much as the abbutting board that is flatsawn. Add to that the fact that wood don't read the tables:D  I run into this with supposed KD v-groove panelling all the time. He needs to sticker it in the house now and let you run it in a few weeks.
The house I just did was running about 35% RH the flooring when laid was reading 7% after acclimating for about a week. My house is running 42% right now so wood should be equalizing at about 8%.
If its his personal house I'd say go ahead after warning him, the raw material is the problem not your work and he'll perhaps get a good reminder when he ties his shoes every morning. If its for a client I don't think I'd be so eager.
 Can you get hold of a meter? Alot of cabinet shops and flooring guys have one. The NOFMA website has some info.

[Larry]

I agree with Scott R.  Those floorboards are going to shrink 1/10" or so which is unacceptable.  There is nothing you can do about it other than kiln drying.  After you kiln dry it put it in the house to stabilize for a couple of weeks.  The wood actually gains a little MC while it is stabilizing so it won't swell when it is laid in a new house.  

Putting that air-dried wood in the house on sticks for a few weeks won't do a thing for you either.  The house is still "wet" from the wet construction lumber, the ton or so of mud used for the drywall and masonry work, and all the fresh paint.  It takes a month or so to go from air-dried to kiln dry in my solar kiln and a week or more in the DH kiln.

As an after thought could the builder possibly want a floor with cracks to add a little character?
Larry

[Don P]

I just threw the meter into some exposed framing by the thermometer/hygrometer in the kitchen window...Why do carpenters never finish the trim on their own houses:D.
It was just neat to see the book larnin' jive with real life.



I guess there's agreement on what the builder ought to do. But I run into this all the time from the builders end. The client wants in now and cheap. You explain that dry wood is better and explain shrinkage etc. They want to go cheap.
In the last house I did the client was directed to a kd supplier of the heavy siding and trim, they found a partially air dried supplier and saved thousands. As they were prestaining trim in that 90+ degree heat bluestain started to go wild...they acted like it was the suppliers fault... for a short few minutes, they had been informed consumers.
So the question to me is legal and ethical...from each perspective when faced with the question of working wood that you know isn't ready, what should one do?

[woodmills1]

simple  IT MUST BE DRIED  inside for as many months as possible or kiln.  the shortest I have done with thin 2.25 red oak was three weeks located close to the wood furnace after a skip plane on 2 year air dried, then a week also next to the furnace after machining.  that floor looks good in the summer but shows gaps in the winter.  the best was 2 year air dry then 3 years on stickers in the room it was used in.  that floor is better than factory 8)

[Larry]

There are a few other factors that may influence what the builder is doing.
Over budget and trying to do it on the cheap?
Deadlines Deadlines -- when does the house have to be ready for occupancy?
Who is making the monthly interest payment on the construction loan?

Woodmills -- Your right on target with the 2-1/4" oak flooring but this builder is wanting to use 8" wide fir which I think is going to cause about 3 times as much shrinkage.

I guess if it was me in this position I would be GONE FISHING, as I don't think I would want to be associated in what is going to end up being a problem.
Larry

[Paul_H]

Wow,what a lot of qualified responses.I am going to print this page,and keep it in my files,and a copy for him too.

The one thing I didn't mention was the floor is for a suite in his own house.But it will do the same thing no matter whose house it is,and after he trips over the boards a few times,I'm afraid he'll start thinking about me and my planer.

Another factor is he bought the wood from a small mill that went broke last year.I have had wood milled up by them a couple of times,and it turned out it was a Magic Mill.You drop off a old growth fir,with tight rings,and out comes wide ringed,second growth lumber,some of it even changing into a slightly different species(Balsam Fir).I dropped of a 16' Birch,20 inches on the butt,and it disappeared.When I went to pick up the lumber a few months later,they couldn't find it :PHe had told me he would phone when it was ready ;)I don't have any hard feelings toward them,,just a little wiser now.
So I guess I'm a little worried about the quality,twist etc in the first place.
I will talk to the customer and insist on properly drying the wood,or he is on his own.

Thank you for the help on this.

Paul

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi Paul. When I was in the re-model game in S. Fl. I eventually had probs with some customers. A Home Depot opened nearby, and the clients would go and buy the cheap crap and then expect me to install it. You can't imagine their look when I told them, "I'm NOT putting that cheap s--t in your gorgeous home. ARE YOU CRAZY?" Then I would smile and tell them what a great place they had and to NOT cheapen it with junk. Worked like a charm. I NEVER had to replace the stuff, cause they took it back and went shopping where I sent them. Freud would have been proud, RECKON ???

[Jeff]

I feel so un-needed. I just came here to recommend that Paul prints this page and gives it to his customer.

How bout I sing instead? ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Can you dance, instead ???? :D :D :D

[Paul_H]

You're still needed,I got the idea to print the page from another thread awhile back 8)

[Jeff]

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=print;board=sawmill;num=1039412287

 8)

[Jeff]

Nope, don't dance. I'd look like this> 8)

[Paul_H]

Jeff,
How did you set that page up to print without colour?Can I do that on any thread?

Thanks,it's printing right now!

[ADfields]

Hi Paul_H
Down at the bottom of the page to the right of the "reply" link see the word PRINT and a little printer, click that and you get the printer page that dont use 3 bucks (thats $4.50 in Canada  ;D) wouth of ink.
Andy

[Jeff]

Easy! at the top or bottom of every thread is a print button. when you click it, it will convert the entire thread, even if it is multiple pages.

[DanG]

Do you guys think it would be practical for a small mill to maintain a controlled environment building to store this stuff? It could be maintained at a condition that is more or less typical of a home in the area. This seems like the next best thing to storing it in the actual room it will live in. Let's face it, very few folks are willing to look at bare sub-flooring, and a stack of lumber in the living room for a few months. Most contractors aren't able to delay the completion of a job long enough to do a good job of stabilizing the wood, either.

I can get all the old 12x60 mobile homes I want, for free. A few mods, and an air conditioner, will make it a pretty typical environment. Do you think that, after a few successful jobs with the right builders, that enough premium could be charged to offset the extra expense?

[Don P]

You've nailed the problem from my end...once I start I usually can't stop. Money is flowing and lets face it the time for ruminating is over.
The rule of thumb goes, if you heat a storage building 3 degrees above the average morning low the wood equalizes at 12%, 5 degrees above=11%,8=10% 12degrees=9%, 15=8%, 19=7%, and 25 degrees above the morning low equalizes at 6% moisture content. (Wood Handbook) Running the heat off a hygrostat  would be the most accurate way.
So, yes, after kd you can hold the wood at the target mc.

About 20 years ago we visited some folks at a place we affectionately called Chicken Leg Commune, they were a group of woodworkers who bought green lumber, had built a solar kiln and were in the process of making a solar tempered storage building. It didn't need all the collector area, just enough to warm it up in there. ...We chose to pass on the opportunity to join up, they were...different :D

[DanG]

I know what you mean about those "commune" folks. Back in the '70s I delivered several loads of firewood to a big commune near Tallahassee. Now, I consider myself to be "different", but I ain't near as different as those people. They did have some neat cabins built in those woods, and I really liked the way they worked together, but other aspects of their lives were waaaaaaayyyy outside the boundaries of normalcy. :D :D

[Tom]

Check on Zoning before you commit to using a Mobile home for something other than a mobile home.  I had one on my place that I lived in  when I first moved on. It had used up its usefulness and I was trying to sell it, give it away, dismantle it or something.  Nobody wanted it and I found that I needed permits to dismantle it and then prove what I did with the contents.  I decided to use it for a workshop.  Nope!!  I was told by the county, all omnipitant, $1.50 an hour clerk.  That is a home and a home it will remain.  You can't have two homes on your property and you can't use it for anything but a home, so...........What are you going to do with it?    I could issue a citation, you know.      

I found a broker who offered to take it off of my hands.  Lord knows what he did with it.  I think he sold it to some young couple who set it up.

I know that all places are different but it's worth checking before you spend any money.  That may be why the Mobile homes are free.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Ya know, it seems that all this govt. crap needs to be addressed. I'm STILL waiting (2 weeks) for some moron to sign a stupid piece of paper saying I can use a dirt access to take logs. Those in charge wrote the letter giving the permission. NOW, some clerk, (new at the job and just put in charge of ALL Deadhead permitting), is playing around with MY TIME and MY MONEY.

  It's high time for a revolution by the REAL workers in this country, to REMOVE ALL the inefficiency in this Bureaucracy !!!!!!!!!!!!!  

  Ya'll can have the platform now, I'm going loggin !!!!!!!

[DanG]

I know whatcha mean, Harold. Those county-level bureaucrats are the pits. As far as I know, the restriction here is for bringing one into the county. If it is already here, they don't seem to care what happens to it. I'll certainly check on it, before I commit myself. I'm not sure I want the thing "decorating" my place, anyway, but the price is attractive, and it might be a way to get into business a lot quicker.

[Kevin_H.]

Hey danG,
I dont know if it would make any difference to the county but those over seas containers are getting kinda cheap to buy, might even be easier to control the RH in one of those. I have always. thought you could make a good looking DH kiln out of one.

[CHARLIE]

Jeff, I'd much rather hear your guitar pickin' than your singin'.

[DanG]

That's a good thought, too, as is a semi-trailer. The advantage of the mobile home is, that it is already insulated(well, sort of, anyway :) and the ducting is already there for the a/c.  I'm not saying it is an ideal solution, but it is quick, easy, and cheap. Those things might be necessary for some of us. It is also big. It would take several shipping containers to equal the capacity, and that would mean more systems to maintain.
There are other alternatives, such as old school busses, etc.

[WV_hillbilly]

 DanG if you could get a hold on an insulated semi that was used for refrigerated hauling you might be in business with out having to add much insulation if any. That's my 2 cents worth.

Hillbilly

[DanG]

That has been my thought, as well, Hill. However, a dead reefer would set me back about $4,000, and the MH would be free. Besides, what better way to simulate the environment of a house, than to use a house, or a reasonable facsimile, thereof? The main problem I can foresee is, the neighbors would think I'm moving a herd of Mexicans in.

[Kevin_H.]

You know if you put to many of the MH together, they attract tornado's. ;D

[OneWithWood]

DanG,
Have you given much thought to the load bearing capacity of a MH floor?  How were you intending on moving the lumber about?  Might be something to consider... :-/

[DanG]

Yeah, One. I thought of that, but I haven't come up with a solution. Maybe it could be end-loaded on carts, with the vwheels directly over the main beams.

I don't really plan on doing this, though I think it is doable, but I did manage to drag a few responses out of all you sleepyheads. ;D

[CHARLIE]

My Uncle Pete is converting a semi trailor to a kiln. I don't know how it'll work but I imagine it'll be better than nothing.

Tom, I think that if I owned that mobil home, it might have just caught fire and burned to the ground. 8)

[Paul_H]

DanG,
I like the idea.Wondered about the floor also,because I lived in a trailer for a while and it had  press board for floor.But you have the heat and insulation in place,and the price is right,it shouldn't be too difficult to overcome.

[Frank_Pender]

DanG, I followed  through with the idea of useing a refer trailer for a kilnd about 4 years ago. l It works great. I got one for $1,000 and reinsolated the walls and put a number of electrical outlets in for fans, heat exchanger and my Ebac Dh unit.  I have dried sever thousand feet of lumber ,very successfully.  I am going to purchase a 42' sea going refer unit for the  next kiln unit I install.  A friend of mine in a near by town has two of them and is drying our very challenging Western Oregon Oak,with great success.  Some of the flooring he has dried was 2nd to none that has even been sawn in the country.  He then build a "warning room" to make sure the flooring does not absorb more moisture before it leaves the mill site.

[Fla._Deadheader]

DanG,DanG. Wished I lived a lil closer to ya. Rigging up a system for placing wood in a box type trailer (MH) would be a snap. Make some tracks out of boards,shaped like channel, and make a couple of carts with enough tire and frame strength, to fit the track. Off bear directly onto the cart and sticker as ya go. Then pull the carts into the box with a small tractor or whatever, close the doors (on both ends) and "Bob's yer uncle". When dry, pull it back out ,or on through, and insert the next load. The track would run longways and bridge the cross framing of the MH. Floor COULD even be rotten, so long as it keeps out moisture.

[DanG]

I figger to offload directly from the mill to some sort of drying cart, whichever way I go with the kiln. I've been thinking of making carts from old truck frames. I'm modifying my trailer to be the same height as the mill bed, which is just above the height of it's 15" tires. The truck frames could be set up the same height, so I never have to lift logs or lumber, once it is on my trailer. I gotta check with the junkyard to see how much I can buy the truck frames for. :P  The carts could be moved about with a towbar setup.
I know I can get old wore out trucks for next to nuthin, but I don't really want to be in the junkyard business. I have a couple of rolled over wrecks on hand, though, thanks to my step-son's driving skills, so I'll start out with them, and just haul the other parts to the junkyard. I got a feeling I'm gonna be working real cheap doing this, though. If they work out ok, I'll just buy more, already stripped down.

[Tom]

Hmmmm.     I just had a thought. If you are concerned about lifting weights, why don't you make each step, log to mill, mill to kiln truck to kiln to storage area, a little down hill from each last step.  that way a log can be rolled to the mill, boards can be put on the truck without lifting too high, the truck can be moved more easily, rolled to the kiln and then to the storage area.  An empty cart could be pushed back up a slight incline back to the starting place easier than a loaded one on level ground.  It wouldn't have to be much slope. : :P

[DanG]

That's kinda sorta what I had in mind, after a fashion.  Only problem is, my place don't have no slope. Oh well, I always preferred to keep things on the level, anyway.

I figger that I can possess these carts for under a hunnerd bucks each. That way, if I need another cart, I won't have to break the bank to get one. Now, if anybody can come up with a down-side to this idea, I'd like to hear it now, before I start clutterin' up Ms Linda's place with a bunch of useless truck frames. :D :D

[Don P]

Only down side I could think of is the frames are high, wasted kiln space, but if the price is right its one of those complicated equations. The airflow must be forced through the stickered stack so you'll need to baffle the cart to floor area well or it'll short circuit and just go around the pile. You guys get old hay racks around there? I've used them in shops and on jobs, already got the tongue and a simpler running gear.

[Frank_Pender]

DanG, what I have done is created a pallet that is 54" wide and 9' long.  When there is to be lumber run trhrough the kil I place the lumber n the pallet at the time of sawing and it is also stickered.  After the lumber has air dried for 30 to 60 days I simply remove the lumber from the pallet and place on the kil carts and pull them into the kil.  The kil carts are the same size as the above mentioned pallets.  90% of the lumber that is put into the kil is not over 12' long.  Most is 8' or 10' in length.  I can usually dry about 2500' at a time.  I do also go against what some "experts" say you should not do, and that is mix the species when drying.  I have had great success in the mixing of species as well as just one species at a time.

[DanG]

Frank, I like the idea of the pallets. I had thought of that, but I don't have a forklift. By the time I have a kiln, I will probably have a forklift or loader, and will probably go that way.

Why don't you share a little bit about your kiln? I think you said you were using a wood-fired unit in a reefer trailer?  How do you exhaust the moisture, duct the heat, handle the circulation, etc?

[Frank_Pender]

Venting is non-existant.  the moisture is remove via an Ebac 800 and metered nto a 5 gal pale.  Air circulation is with 5 24" fans plus the heat exchanger fan.  time for  drying ranges from 25 to 32 days, depending on amount of air dried time ans species.

[Frank_Pender]

I usually use the loader for my 5300 Johnnie Popper which is a 740.  I make up the units of lumber so that they are easy to lift and move about with a set quick release designed forks.  I the event I have something , usually logs, that exceed the capacity of the load I will use my early 1950's Gerlinger lift truck which has a capacity of 18,000 lbs.  It was made right here in good ol' Dallas, Oregon for use in lumber companies and sawmills.

[Paul_H]

Frank,
What type of lift does the Gerlinger have.Is it a straight boom?Hydraulic or cable?

[Frank_Pender]

It is hydraulic, Paul.  If you could ger here I would let you drive it for a few feet. :D