Which Mill to buy? Woodmizer or Cooks

[redneckman]

Hello Sawyer brothers.  I have always wanted to buy m very own hydraulic bandsaw mill to start a small business.  Last week, the company that I have worked for for 23 years laid me and about 500 other good people off.  SO, I am taking the opportunity and money that they are paying me to leave to buy my mill. 8)

I have seen Wood Mizers in person.  They are a fine looking mill.  I know a lot of you owns them.  I have never seen a Cook's mill in person, but I have watched every video that I can find, and read every piece of literature.  The Cooks mill looks like a awesome, heavy mill too.  For comparison, I am looking at the LT50 / LT70 vs Cooks AC 36 (52 and 62 HP).

I know the Wood Mizer rep says his mill can be set up  fast.  he Cools guy says that Wood mizers head will bounce along since it is a cantilever style.  I was wondering what your thoughts were.  Wood mizer vs Cooks?  I realize this is like asking which is better, Ford, Dodge, Chevy.  However, I would still like to see what you have to say.  Thanks for all your help.

[WDH]

The cantilever head on my LT40HDD35 does not bounce.  There has only been about a trillion board feet sawn with this design, how could anybody doubt its effectiveness?  That is just Salesman Speak.

[47sawdust]

I'm in the orange corner.The support and engineering that goes into there products is excellent a well as the re-sale value.
Cook's is also a very good mill.If you live near there plant it might be a good fit.I had a 4 post mill before I bought my Lt30.The convenience of not having another set of posts to work around is huge.As for head wobble,i think it is poor form for any salesman to use that tired argument.A properly aligned WM is a joy to use.

[WV Sawmiller]

   My mill is orange and smaller than what you are proposing to buy but I am very happy with it and the support I have gotten from the WM folks. Saying that I have never heard anything negative about a Cook's mill and I am very disappointed the salesman stooped to bad-mouthing his competition rather than selling a well made mill. Another well made mill manufacturer also tends to try to make the cantilever design sound unsound in their ads instead of letting their mill design and quality sell itself. I periodically show a new customer how I can consistently cut 1/4" or thinner "veneer" out of decent logs with my my mill. This amazes them and would not happen if the head bounced as you have heard from your rep.

    I can verify my mill can be set up in a matter of minutes by myself and from what I have seen his larger WM brothers go up just as fast. To set mine up I drive it to the location, if slightly off level on one side or the other I either dig a quick small hole in front of the high side tire or put a board or two in front of the low side tire and pull forward a foot or so till it rises or drops into position. I then partially lower the back landing gear , chock the wheel, go drop and adjust the 3 front landing gears and raise it off the ball then lower and adjust the 3 rear landing gears. In the worst case I might have to dig out under a front landing pad or two or add a 2X or 2 under a rear pad to get the whole mill reasonably straight so I don't overwork the power feed or have the head want to move on its own. That's with old manual landing gears. Would be faster and easier with FAOs and if/when I set up on a level area.

   Then just move the head forward, lower the loading arms and install the blade and ready to saw. A conservative estimate is 10-15 minutes at my leisurely pace.

   Good luck. You will be happy with either mill but before you take the plunge is there a market for your lumber or sawing services and do you have the support equipment to move the logs and lumber? Check that out before stepping off the diving board.

[DDW_OR]

another thing to consider is axle placement.
my TK-2000 has the axle a LONG ways from the hitch, which makes it hard to turn in a tight area. this is OK for me since i am stationary.

FYI here is a good link to saw mill mods
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.msg1397352/topicseen.html#msg1397352

[redneckman]

Thanks guys for all the advice.  I  have to say that I have thought about much of what you have said.  I saw a WM saw once and he cut a 1/16 thick veneer on it.  However, it was on level ground, and it was the sales person.  Personal experience is always the best advice.  I would take the opinions of owners over a salesman any day.  The cooks mill looks like a great mill to me.   But, I leave 8 hrs from there.  That could be an issue.

I have read where the cooks guys talked about the cantilever head hitting a knot and riding over or under it instead of sawing through it.  I also noticed that on Timber kings website, they basically claim the same thing.  The timber king website also speaks to a hydraulic drive system being superior to the electric that is on the wood mizer.  I can see advantages and disadvantages to both.  What do you guys think?

The point about the axle placement is well made.  I thought about this too.  The cooks mill is 30' plus long.  Since I will be offering on site sawing, I was a little worried about the length of the mill and getting into some tight places.  I do want the capability to cut a 24" log, but I could use a add on to a wood mizer.

As for my business, I want to offer custom sawing in my area and branch into selling dried lumber and see where it goes.  I have a 47 HP 4wd Kubota front end loader to move logs around.  My family has been in the logging / saw milling business for 4 generations.  It is as you would say "in my blood".

[John S]

I too was interested in other manufacturers before I purchased an LT15G15 and then traded up to an LT40HDG28.  I was able to see and try a few Wood-Mizers before buying one.  They do demos in my area twice a year.  When I bought the LT40, I was able to visit an owner about 20 minutes from my location.  One of the other companies gave me an address of the nearest owner that was 150 miles from here.  The point that I am trying to make is, there are a lot of orange owners and many opportunities to see them in action than any other manufacturer that I am aware of.  Good luck.

[SkyDoc]

I am not speaking out against anything orange, but those two arent the only two shows in town. I recently purchased a Turner Mills fully hydraulic mill for a fraction of the price of the "big" companies. Bottom line, I get the same support from the manufacturer, if I have a breakdown I can get literally every part from a NAPA (no waiting on the manufacturer to mail a proprietary part). There is no computer, therefore, there are no electrical problems to run down and trace out. On top of all of that, I got to have it built to MY needs, for a fraction of the cost....

Just my .02c...

Best of luck on your decision making.

Doc

[Rougespear]

Skydoc beat me to it: there is a lot said for construction using "off-the-shelf" parts, which Cooks, Timberking, and Turner all do.  I love all the auxiliary information that Cooks' publishes.  They have convinced my that a band moving in the cut is due to issues other than head design: blade alignment and sharpness being principle.  WM would have went out of business many years ago if their mills did not cut accurate lumber.

My recommendation to you would be to decide what you want in the neck of log handling on the deck: electric vs. hydraulic and go from there.  It is my experience that Timberking's claim of hydraulics being superior to 12vdc is true: hydraulics require very little maintenance aside from keeping the oil cool and changing it on a regular basis.

Just a heads up: both the LT70 and the AC36 are going to be more mill than you alone can keep up with sawing-wise.  I may suggest you consider the LT40SH, HD32, or the TK2000 as suitable alternatives.

[longtime lurker]

Could a cantilever head design deflect easier around knots? Technically that'd be a yes if everything was equal.
Is it likely to be an issue in reality? Not if the cantilever is well designed: Wodmizer have sold a lot of
mills.
Everything will deflect off line if it's a hard enough knot...including my 1/4" circular sawsplates. Ain't much hope for a thin band once you've seen that happen.

Dunno much about bandmills but I've always liked the look of Cooks and the big Baker.

Friend, I don't want to throw cold water on your ambitions, but given you're about to have a chunk of cash and no job I feel the need to ask about log supply and markets and sawing experience and mundane things like that. Depending on a lot of factors it can be a tough business to make a living from, and there's a learning curve at the start. Make sure you got some socked away to eat and keep the kids in shoes while you get established: My wife is a retirement investment advisor and she has awhole heap of stories about people in similar situations who wake up one day and find themselves gone from making out to destitute because they bought themselves a job.
At least make a business plan.

Good luck with it, whatever you choose.

[Bandmill Bandit]

My situation was similar to yours. I was able to buy my mill with out any borrowed capital, BUT there is a LOT more support stuff required depending on what your productions need are. but that another discussion.

The WM and Cook are both good mills!

Here is a how I made the decision!
Product Access;
Dealer and support location nearest me = Woodmizer (wasn't a cook dealer in western canada)
support reputation of local dealer  = Woodmizer

next I helped owners of few different mills

Both swing mills I worked with cut a LOT of lumber in a day BUT also produced a LOT of sawdust/chips waste. One of them was a well built reliable mill the other was junk.

Worked with 2 of the 4 post designed mills the Cooks mill was the better of those 2 the other one was junk.

Worked with a WM LT28 Manual. Hands down a better built mill than the other band saws BUT the Cook produced comparable quality of lumber AND was almost as reliable.
WM is definitely easier on an aging body even as a manual mill.

Worked with a LT40 Hydraulic and that pretty much cinched it for me so I bought one. In hind site I should have worked with a LT40 Super as that is pretty much what mine has become.

The lumber handling with my milling set up is a direct result of the trapezoid bed frame AND the cantilever head. Off bearing effort is minimal!

Having worked with the 4 posters you'd have a hard time GIVING me one even if it was a Cook just for the loading and off-loading ease.

I do not believe you will find a saw system that will not deflect given the right circumstances.

Care and maintenance = WM
Resale Value =WM

That is my experience so far as well.

PS
I have run an LT50 and an LT70.
I like the 50 but the 70 not so much.

In side by side shoot out I am pretty sure I can cut BF for BF with the 50 the way my mill is set up now and I don't think I'd be that far behind the 70.

IMHO the LT40Super with ALL the options, running the 38HP Yanmar is the best bang for your buck in the Woodmizer line up. Wireless remote is a very nice feature as well. The new wide throat option should be considered in the context of the available timber to you.

Regardless of which mill you choose to purchase, they ALL will frustrate you in the early days of learning, even the Woodmizer. The learning curve is steep unless you have an experienced mentor which I was fortunate enough to have.

Welcome and good luck as you progress through this addictive life changing process!

You will NEVER recover! IT is a terminal addiction for which there is no antidote! Only MORE sawdust will mitigate the symptoms! 

[killamplanes]

Keep in mind there's alot of good used mills out there.

[Darrel]

4 years ago when I was shopping for a mill I looked at every make I could, not in person, because there wasn't every brand nearby. To things made the choice easy.  There has to be a reason why there are so many woodmizer mills available to be seen. Quality sells. After searching for about a year, I decided to buy a used mill and spend the money saved on other things. So I searched Craigslist and the only mills I could find used were orange. The man I was buying the LT 40 from was upgrading to a LT 70. So I knew he wasn't selling it because he didn't like it.

So good luck to you and please post pictures of what ever you buy. Red is pretty too!

[Magicman]

All of the Forestry Forum Sponsors listed on the left build solid sawmills and they all stand behind their product with their warranty and service.  All of them incorporate a design that has been developed by their R&D personnel and are field proven. 

That being said, I hate to hear about any of them attempting to build their product up by making statements about another that simply is not true.  If you feel more comfortable and secure with a 4 post sawmill, then that is the right decision for you to make, but be assured that the cantilever head will not be deflected upward or downward by anything that the blade hits.

I sawed a 40" Cypress log yesterday by turning it and allowing the oversized portion to extend beyond the cantilever opening.  Yes, there are advantages.  Try that with a 4 post. 

[Brucer]

I'm only going to talk about Wood-Mizer mills, and specifically about the cantilever head design.

The claim that the head will bounce along is simply not true when the blade is cutting. Assuming you have the proper blade the claim that the blade will ride over or under a knot is simply not true. Period. I've sawn half a million board feet of lumber on three different Wood-Mizer mills that will prove my point.

The cantilever head is designed so that the sawing forces pull the carriage tight against the rails. There is no bounce.

I've sawn with the wrong blade angle, or with a dull blade, and the blade will deflect up or down when it hits a knot, as it will on any mill. The cantilever head itself will not move up or down. The head is rock steady all through the cut.

Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

[opticsguy]

My only experience is with a Timberking mill.
The TK is excellently made and performs excellently, so another mill for you to consider.
Nuff said.

[starmac]

I don't have any experience with any mill except an old 88 or 9 woodmizer.
I can however tell you the head does not bounce nor ride up at a knotm when the blade itself rides up(not the head) it is time to change the blade or at least slow down.
I don't have near the hours or experience running my mill as most of these other guys, but can also tell you that you can cut a uniform spruce board thin enough to see through, and bend in a complete circle. I have proved this several times, and you don't have to be an old sawyer or sitting on an even parking lot to do it.

As far as set up time, I can not imagine a four poster being as fast, and don't see any way they could be faster at all.

[ladylake]

  I'd be more concerned about hydraulics vs electric not which type of head.   Steve

[longtime lurker]

And setworks... Intuitive setworks that can actually do what you want vs a factory weenies take on what everyman sawyer should need. That's right beside hydraulics on the priority list.
Band width options would matter to me too

Paint colour is irrelevant compared to those because it ain't paint that makes the money.

[petefrom bearswamp]

To paraphrase the old lovin saying
all are good just some better than others.
I am an orange guy.

[Bandmill Bandit]

On the electric vs Hydraulic comparison;

Hydraulics are good and I like them. I have owned may ag and construction machines in my life and the ones I liked the best were the Electric over hydraulic systems.

Hydraulics tend to be messy over time and I don't like a mess when I have to work on things for maintenance or repairs. Electric is easier and less costly to repair as well.   

Wood Mizers electrics are very well put together and are reliable and easy to work on. 

[ladylake]

On the electric vs Hydraulic comparison;

Hydraulics are good and I like them. I have owned may ag and construction machines in my life and the ones I liked the best were the Electric over hydraulic systems.

Hydraulics tend to be messy over time and I don't like a mess when I have to work on things for maintenance or repairs. Electric is easier and less costly to repair as well.   

Wood Mizers electrics are very well put together and are reliable and easy to work on.

  Keep in mind WM still has all of the hydraulics, just drives them  and the head with electric motors.  Steve

[WV Sawmiller]

   Yes, my blade will sometimes jump over a knot. As soon as it does I stop and replace it with a sharp/new blade and resume sawing and the problem has always gone away for me.

[Bandmill Bandit]

On the electric vs Hydraulic comparison;

Hydraulics are good and I like them. I have owned may ag and construction machines in my life and the ones I liked the best were the Electric over hydraulic systems.

Hydraulics tend to be messy over time and I don't like a mess when I have to work on things for maintenance or repairs. Electric is easier and less costly to repair as well.   

Wood Mizers electrics are very well put together and are reliable and easy to work on.

  Keep in mind WM still has all of the hydraulics, just drives them  and the head with electric motors.  Steve

Yes WM is uses both and the hydraulics ARE electric over hydraulic. Approaching 2000 hours with no significant issues to date

[redneckman]

Thanks to everyone who has responded.  It sounds like the WM is a great mill, and everyone that I have talked too has had nothing but great things to say about them. 

Band mill Bandit, I appreciate your insight on a LT 50-LT 70. I was leaning toward a LT 50, and it is good to hear from someone that they thought there are not much difference.  As far as the controls go, would you guys rather have the walk along, or the controls on the end of the mill?

As far as my business goes, I live in NC.  I plan on beginning with a portable sawmill business. I actually own 10 acres of some really pretty poplar. I plan on select cutting, sawing, and drying some to sell, and expanding into other species as well.  There is nowhere to buy a piece of dried cherry, or walnut.  You can go to Lowes and buy dried popular and oak, but you better take your first born with you.  At one time, a 1x10x96 oak board was $50.00.  Also, where I live, it is the logging capital on the east coast.  There are plenty of cutters available to buy timber from.   I live among a bunch of farmers and landowners who own lots of timber.  i have already done some market research and it is favorable.  I am in need to build some out buildings, so the way I figure I could saw my own lumber from my land and save enough to pay for a good used mill.

My family has been in the sawmill industry for 4 generations.  I grew up around a old meadows circular mill.  I was logging a 518 cat before I was 16, and hauling logs to the mill when I was 21.  My uncle asked if I wanted to drive the truck, I told him yes, and he said " then get your a$$ in there and go".  So, I did.  I didn't even have a cdl.  So, needless to say, I understand how much work this will be.  But, it is honest work.

I have found a 2009 LT 50 in FL with 1200 hours.  It has a Cat diesel, debarker, and the walk along controls.  The asking price is 32K.  The pictures look like it is in good shape, with just a little surface rust.  Is this a far price?