Winch (gathered wheel chair and scooter motors)

Georgia088 · January 22, 2018, 07:46:19 PM

Hey all. I found an old 1500lb winch I had laying around and thought I might replace my hand winch with it on my sawmill head to let it up and down. I connected it and it seems to work pretty well. I have a hf predator 13 hp. Motor. Do you think it will keep the battery charged enough to let the carriage up and down? The battery I'm using is Not new or have high cranking amps but has always worked to crank engine.
Thanks!

ncsawyer · January 22, 2018, 09:22:10 PM

My old mill was a LT-40 Woodmizer with a 18HP Briggs. The only charging system was the stator on the engine. It kept the battery charged on the mill fine. That mill was a manual mill, so the battery was used to crank the engine, run the head up, down, back and forth and also ran the blade guide.

I would think your setup will more than likely work. May have to invest in a deep cycle battery.

Good luck!

Georgia088 · January 23, 2018, 06:53:59 AM

Thanks for the reply. So, on that mill you had electric motors that would move the head up and down and move the carriage through the cut? Wow I can't believe the battery would handle all that. So, surely mine will keep up just letting head up and down. What do you mean about moving your blade guides?
Thanks.

bandmiller2 · January 23, 2018, 07:01:05 AM

Georgia, are you going to be able to jog the winch accurately enough.?? It will be very frustrating to want to drop an inch and have to keep playing with it. You may want to go through blocks to slow the movement. Frank C.

Georgia088 · January 23, 2018, 08:08:37 AM

Good question. I don't know. I plan on possibly adding a handle to it for the fine adjustments after I have done the majority of it with a winch. I'm not sure if it will work or not but I thought it was worth a shot. I'm still wondering if my battery will keep up though.

Thanks!

Kbeitz · January 23, 2018, 09:36:04 AM

This was one of the biggest reasons I went with Wheelchair motors.
You can turn down the speed until you find the sweet spot for control
and the wattage is so low that the motors will run off just the alternator
without the battery. I found that out after I forgot to turn the on switch
on and was running the mill.

Georgia088 · January 23, 2018, 10:49:36 AM

Kbeitz
I was really just going to try the winch bc I have it laying around. I like the wheelchair motor idea but I don't have one (or a junkyard that is nearly as good as yours). Plus most are 24v and I don't really want to be 24v. I'm sure it's a better solution though. Is your mill 100% electric? Or do you have some hydraulics?

Kbeitz · January 23, 2018, 06:38:43 PM

There is a lot of 12v wheelchair motors on E-bay right now...

ncsawyer · January 23, 2018, 07:29:42 PM

Quote from: Georgia088 on January 23, 2018, 06:53:59 AM
Thanks for the reply. So, on that mill you had electric motors that would move the head up and down and move the carriage through the cut? Wow I can't believe the battery would handle all that. So, surely mine will keep up just letting head up and down. What do you mean about moving your blade guides?
Thanks.

The Woodmizer Mills have three electric motors. One runs the head up and down, one carries the head forwards and backwards, and there is a small motor that moves the blade guide arm in and out. It basically adjust the distance between the two blade guides or the width of the throat of the mill.

Georgia088 · January 23, 2018, 09:19:13 PM

Well.... I got the winch hooked up and it seems to do ok. However, the way I went about it was probably crazy and may not work permanently. So, the winch that I am using has been laying around for years. It is supposed to be a one way (cable pulling in) with a knob and clutch that releases to free wheel or free release the cable. However the motor works in reverse as well if you reverse polarity. So, I welded the gears together to bypass clutch (no free wheel needed). But the problem was when the winch was mounted to frame of sawmill carriage and the polarity was reversed, it caused a short. The winch motor is contacting the metal frame. The (+) from the battery must connect to the (-) side of the winch motor to let the wire out (head down). I had some coated cable laying around that I used to keep from contacting the metal carriage and I cut some rubber matts to use as insulators for the motor to sit on so that it didn't contact the metal either.

Crazy? Yea, probably. Is there an easier way to set it up so that when I put (+) to the winch motor Frame and (-) to the winch terminal it will not short on the (-) sawmill frame? I figure someone can tell me a better way.

Thanks!

Kbeitz · January 24, 2018, 03:32:41 AM

Shift your motor brushes...

Georgia088 · January 24, 2018, 06:42:45 AM

Kbeitz
What do you mean? How do you do that? What does it do? I have replaced brushes before and sanded brushes down that came off of other motors to fit the one I needed to work but idk what you mean by shifting them. What does that do for the polarity?

Thanks.

coach08 · January 24, 2018, 07:27:01 AM

Interested in this brush shifting thing. Is this something that is fisable or something that is going to be more trouble and work than is worth fooling with? You are talking about a 1500lb winch that has been just laying around.

Kbeitz · January 24, 2018, 08:34:05 AM

If it's a two brush motor just swap the brush leads.
If it's a 4 brush motor and a moveable backplate
rotate it 40 degrees. You need to change the polarity
of the supply voltage to either the field winding or
the armature winding, but not both. A starter or
winch motor has PM magnets in the field so you
can't change the field.

Georgia088 · January 24, 2018, 08:42:02 AM

Ok. I don't think it would be a problem for me to change the brushes, but how does that make the frame of the winch not (-)? I can see if you swapped the two brushes that it would make it (+) when the winch was letting out, but wouldnt it make it (-) when the winch was letting in? Forgive me for being stupid, but I don't understand.... Thanks!

pineywoods · January 24, 2018, 09:29:42 AM

Swapping the brush leads will make the winch run in the other direction, but you will still have the short problem. To fix that, you will have to tear into the motor and isolate the brush leads from the motor frame. I used a starter motor off a riding lawnmower, same problem. There's pics in my gallery showing how to isolate the brush leads from the motor frame. I'm with K, use a wheel chair motor. They are 24 volt, but work good on 12..The speed controller off a wheel chair won't work properly on 1`2 volts. Notor off a handicap scooter is best..

Georgia088 · January 24, 2018, 10:31:50 AM

Quote from: pineywoods on January 24, 2018, 09:29:42 AM
Swapping the brush leads will make the winch run in the other direction, but you will still have the short problem. To fix that, you will have to tear into the motor and isolate the brush leads from the motor frame. I used a starter motor off a riding lawnmower, same problem. There's pics in my gallery showing how to isolate the brush leads from the motor frame. I'm with K, use a wheel chair motor. They are 24 volt, but work good on 12..The speed controller off a wheel chair won't work properly on 1`2 volts. Notor off a handicap scooter is best..

Ok, now I think I see how that can eliminate the short. So, you are basically disconnecting the brushes from any part of the motor frame. Running wire directly to the brushes from the battery (or switch). Does this sound right?

Thanks!

pineywoods · January 24, 2018, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: Georgia088 on January 24, 2018, 10:31:50 AM

Ok, now I think I see how that can eliminate the short. So, you are basically disconnecting the brushes from any part of the motor frame. Running wire directly to the brushes from the battery (or switch). Does this sound right?

Thanks!

You got it.

Georgia088 · January 24, 2018, 11:10:05 AM

What makes the scooter motors better? My dad (coach08) came up with two wheel chair motors and a scooter motor for us. The wheel chair motors dont turn very fast, and I looked at other posts and read about them having brakes. I don't see any brakes on this, but maybe they are going fast enough IDK. The scooter motor seems to run great, but I don't know how to connect the speed control, or if the speed control works. Can you guys help? I'm not really sure how I am going to use them, but I figure ya'll say they are better and know much more than me so.... I may even make the mill a power feed? I didn't really have plans to do it, but since I came up with these maybe I will.
Because I already have the winch hooked mounted, I may continue to use it. I will probably isolate the brushes like piney talked about, but I don't know why not to use it.

Georgia088 · January 24, 2018, 08:58:56 PM

I forgot to add I had both motors hooked to 12v not 24. I know the scooter is 24v, but I am just assuming the wheel chair motors are...
Thanks.

pineywoods · January 24, 2018, 09:26:24 PM

Scooter motor has twice the power of wheelchair motors. They also have a builtin disk brake. Remove the brake if you don't need it. It is spring loaded on, have to apply power to hold it released.

Georgia088 · January 24, 2018, 10:02:24 PM

This one ran so smooth I can't imagine that it had the brake on, but idk. Any idea why the wheel chair motors seem so slow?

Any idea how to connect speed control to scooter motor or find out if it works?

Thanks!

Kbeitz · January 25, 2018, 02:29:05 AM

Quote from: Georgia088 on January 24, 2018, 08:58:56 PM
I forgot to add I had both motors hooked to 12v not 24. I know the scooter is 24v, but I am just assuming the wheel chair motors are...
Thanks.

Some are 12v most are 24v. I've had both...

Kbeitz · January 25, 2018, 06:28:36 AM

This is what I used for a speed control. Got it off E-bay...

Georgia088 · January 25, 2018, 07:01:54 AM

So, can you use the speed control that came with the scooter (if it works)? Will that controller work for any of these motors I have? Or, is there something I need to check before I get it?