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timber harvest

Started by schambers, April 23, 2014, 10:59:52 PM

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schambers

Hello all, I am new to this board and have a few questions some of you may have the answers to. I own 45 acres of woods in Butler, PA and have been thinking about a timber cut. The quality of my forest varies but through out the property there are some nice trees. I am also going to have some reclimation work done by the state which would require a clear cut of about 8 to 10 acres. My question is should i try to find a forester or just get a bid from a local logger?
 

mesquite buckeye

Welcome schambers. With the property size it will likely be a tough one. Especially if there isn't that much ready to cut and of unknown quality. You might call your state forestry dept. Lots of them will have a forester visit your place at least once for free. At least they might give you advice about the condition of the forest and offer suggestions.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ron Wenrich

PA works a little different than that.  Consultants routinely have sales on land much smaller than 45 acres, and even smaller than 10 acres.  45 acres would even be nice sized sale. 

Getting the state to do any type of work has been out of fashion for a very long time.  There are very few service foresters, and they can only put in a few days a year for a landowner.  Also, there's a waiting list.  What they do is refer you to a list of foresters.  Some on the list are industrial foresters, some are consultants.  There are many that would be interested in doing the work.  You can get the list by contacting the local forestry office.  To give you a start, here's the state directory:  http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/directory/districtoffice/index.htm

Let several foresters walk through your property and give their recommendations.  This shouldn't cost you any money.  Consultants will bid out work and charge a commission.  Company foresters do the work for "free", but the stumpage price would be lower.  You have to decide which is better.  Sometimes the consultants work is better, sometimes not.  Whichever vendor you chose, you should have payment up front before work begins.  Also, you will need contracts. 

Before talking to any foresters, have a good idea what you want for the future of your forest.  If you're looking to improve quality of your stand, cutting all the nice ones may not be in your best interest.  Have a plan before you talk to a forester - consultant or industrial.  Talk to several foresters before you do anything.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

schambers

Thanks to both of you for your reply. I have recently had a logger walk my property and mark some trees for harvest. We marked 65 trees, 40 were red maple, 23 were cherry, and 2 were oak. The biggest cherry was 20 inches, maple 25in and oak 30in. (all measurements took into consideration what would need to be cut off to square the log) all trees were over 12inches and most were 16 to 22in.. He gave me a bid that avereged out to be 82$ per tree. I know its hard to say without seeing the trees but that seems to low to me. Any thoughts on that average? There are more trees on the property that are that size, I just wouldn't let him mark them.

chester_tree _farmah

U should get a forester to at least walk it with you to be safe. Especially now that the trees are marked. I would think u would want a contract and get paid by percent of the wood sales. The more he gets for the wood the more u both get. Win win. But keep in mind the logger has a lot of overhead and expenses. Just my opinion. 
254xp
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schambers

Yes I agree with the forester idea, already respecfuly told logger i am not gonna let him cut it. Didn't want to disapoint but felt like he was taking advantage of me. I know they have many exspenses and the work is hard work but I ran some numbers through a board ft calculator and used bd. ft. prices that the logger told me and things just don't add up for me. He indicated there is a customer price per bd. ft. and a mill price per bd. ft. so i figure his profit is already built in to the operation.

chester_tree _farmah

Never heard it that way. Customer price and mill price but if u know both u know your percent. If u do % u should get to see the scaling slips so u know what he got paid. I would be hesitant to agree to a set price up front. Even when foresters do a stocking estimate it is not an exact science. U really don't know how much is there and what it will grade out to until it is down and bucked. U did the right thing.

Things may be done different down there though. I am in Maine. My wife grew up in Carlisle.  :-)
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chester_tree _farmah

Oh and trees should be marked down on the base so the paint is there after the tree is taken. How else do u know if more was harvested than should have been? Especially if u do go flat price. Just saying.....
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Ron Wenrich

Percentage sales aren't the way to go, in my opinion.  You're relying on getting a logger that has not only good harvesting skills, but also good marketing skills.  If they can't make any money on a piece, they'll let it lay or let it stand.  Not a good recipe for any type of quality management work.  You'll end up with a high graded stand.  At least with a lump sum bid, you will be paid for the piece that is left lay or let stand if its part of the sale.  The state sells many millions of feet of timber every year.  They do it with a lump sum bid. 

Customer price vs mill price is simply the price the landowner receives for stumpage and the price the logger receives for logs.  The stumpage is always lower because the logger puts value added in the form of cutting, processing, and delivering. 

You could cut out the logger and sell directly to a mill.  They would subcontract the logger, and all logs goes to one mill instead of spread around.  A lot of timber gets sold that way. 

The price doesn't really look all that bad on paper.  But, there is no guarantee that it is what it will end up, as its only a sales pitch at this point.  65 trees on 45 acres looks to be cutting the best trees you can find.  Did that include the clearcut on the 8 to 10 acres?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chester_tree _farmah

Not to quibble but isn't that why we have foresters and written contracts? Foresters to over see the cut and be sure the plan is followed? Prevent high grading? Leave the stand in good shape and help prevent those behaviors? Mark trees no matter what grade? Contracts with penalties for shoddy half baked work and land destruction?

Also around here prices are pretty darn close between buyers.

Just thinking out loud. :-)

254xp
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chester_tree _farmah

Shambers. Check out this thread. Another land owner in pa is going through this too. Not sure if u are close. Sounds like this is his second go around. Maybe helpful to you to message him?

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,74802.0.html

Cheers.
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schambers

Thanks for the feedback everyone. lots of good info here. Ron to answer your post from 4-24 no i am not taking all the best trees, probably the best maple and some of the best cherry but i have many oaks red and white, and cherry that i am trying to save till the next cut or longer. As for the clear cut we did no plan for that when i spoke with logger, its part of a reclamation project and just got word from the state that we can move forward on tree removal. most of that area is large quaking ash or aspen. They had offered 100$ per truck load for any aspen 10in and above but now area will need clear cut. Long term plan for me at 42 years old is to harvest only what i need to improve my stand and potentialy have two or three better harvests in my life time.

schambers

Chester, thanks for the advice. Im two far away from that guys location to use his logger. I would love to have a logger I could trust but finding the right guy would be luck. The more i talk about it and read the posts the more I believe a forester is the way to go for me. Im not doing this just for the most $$ i can get but also don't want to give things away. What does high grading mean?? Taking only the best trees?

chester_tree _farmah

Sounds good. Yes that pretty much sums up high grading. Taking the best high value trees all at once.
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schambers

Not knowing much about Forestry i guess its easy to fall in to high grading. My problem is I don't really have any idea how long i could or should let a tree grow before its time to cut. I marked some of my best cherry at 22 inches, just not sure if they would hang on another 10 to 15 years for another harvest. I a bow hunter too and the right forester could probably help me improve timer quality and whitetail habitat at the same time.

deere540

Schambers, please get the advice of a professional forester before you cut anything.  You local state forester should be able to give you a list of foresters that can help you out.  Get to know a few of them, ask them for references, ask to visit some of their previous work,etc.  Most are proud of their work, and would be happy to show you previous jobs.  My parents property was high graded when I was a kid, it's taken almost 40 years to get it back!!!!  They took the best trees, and left the rest.  Consider having a management plan written for your property. You may want to harvest more timber in the future to gain financially and to improve wildlife habitat, and a plan can help you achieve this.  Don't worry about the deer!!!  Deer habitat is not in short supply by any means. Don't let anyone rush you into anything, and enjoy your woods!!!

chester_tree _farmah

22 diameter or circumference?

You are correct.  I manage my lot for both wildlife and wood. Up here hemlock  groves are what keep deer alive in the winter due to the amount of snow we get. I keep the hemlock groves whole and thin them by a 1/3 max when I do cut them. I also keep a nice small ridge of mature red oak around for the acorns. I did take two nice Veneer grade Oaks out of it this winter but plenty more left.

Anyway. Sounds like you are on the right  track. I would definitely get a forester since u want to manage for the future and wildlife.

254xp
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Ron Wenrich

There is no upside diameter that would indicate that its the maximum size it should be.  I've been in stands of oak where we averaged a diameter of 36" with the largest being 52".  Last year I was in a stand that had 60" oak.  Both of these stands were outside of Philladelphia. 

I drive around and look at stands that I have worked on in the past.  We made a habit of keeping a wide range of diameters, and based our marking of the health of the tree, not on size.  Other foresters and loggers have come in and taken all the large sawtimber that was left.  The thinking is always the same.  Cut it and knock the stand back to a pole or small sawtimber state.  In the process, the landowner has depleted his asset base.   Sometimes its better to thin the smaller sizes and allow the larger ones to grow.  Choose your forester wisely.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

GlennCz

I know your situation exactly.  I have about 60 acres of timber that I owned since 97.  After i bought it I had a few foresters come in an looked at it.  Then I did nothing, I was frozen.  It has/had super nice timber on it.  Black Cherry and maple.  Then in 05 I was in the chainsaw shop and a logger walked in and I  ended up taking out 150,000 feet of timber in about 45 truckloads.  My logger has contacted me a few times to come back and I always wasn't ready, then a few weeks ago he said take a walk with me, and showed me the trees that really needed to be harvested.  He is back and the second load is going out in an hour.  All big huge cherry trees, shy of 4,000 bd feet.  Should be worth well over $4,000. 

It causes a lot of angst on which way is better, forester or logger.  I have very detailed records from my first cut and I know quite a lot about this business for an amateur.  But of course I know i'm a layman.   It's complicated to say the least and there are lots of ways to go wrong. 

There are lots of pluses to a forester.  The negative might be you lose the fun in working with your own logger, who is kind of a partner in the operation.  Of course that is for better or for worse. 

Are you good with excel?  I have a spreadsheet from my harvests I could email you.

jwilly3879

Second what Ron said, a larger tree will build volume faster than the smaller ones, increasing the asset at a better rate. Just like investing in a higher rate CD if you can find one.

GlennCz

Quote from: schambers on April 25, 2014, 10:31:00 PM
. He gave me a bid that avereged out to be 82$ per tree. I know its hard to say without seeing the trees but that seems to low to me. Any thoughts on that average?

Average is an impossible concept unless you are comparing two very similar properties with the same type of culling/cut.  But saying that, in 2005 we harvested 950 trees, I got 85K, that's $90/tree.  Now the prices have changed a big, but when comparing 05 to now, they haven't changed much overall.  Prime X logs, the nice big cherries that aren't veneer dropped from 2400 to 1500 or something like that.  The 950 trees yielded 2400 logs.  I'm sort of a record keeping nut and now with the 2nd logging operation going on, I've completely reviewed my 1st set of records.  Realize though, that the third log up the tree might only be worth $10 at the mill. 

GlennCz

Quote from: jwilly3879 on April 28, 2014, 07:06:38 AM
Second what Ron said, a larger tree will build volume faster than the smaller ones, increasing the asset at a better rate. Just like investing in a higher rate CD if you can find one.

This is true.  But the opposite concept is that many of the big ones are slowly dying inside and you don't always know it.  One of my big fat logs on the landing had red rot inside.  The center has a hollow spot, that decreases the value quite a bit.  The other big thing is the shake, it's where the base starts to split, so when they go to mill it it breaks apart.   For cherry you are hoping for veneer and getting multiple dollars per foot.  A 150 ft log could be worth $4/foot and mill pays $600 for it.  We even had some $6/ft logs.  SADLY!!!  Our best veneer buyers aren't around anymore.

On my first cut, i tried to leave many of the seemingly big healthy trees, because my property had never been logged since clear cut a century or so ago.  It's a judgement call, you certainly don't want someone taking all the good trees just cause they are worth it for them to cut down, when the tree could be growing a couple percent a year and hopefully timber prices are rising.  But of course if we have another bad recession, timber prices will plummet down. 

chester_tree _farmah

I see you two PA boys found each other after all. Good deal. :-)

254xp
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Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

GlennCz

Quote from: chester_tree _farmah on April 28, 2014, 07:48:10 AM
I see you two PA boys found each other after all. Good deal. :-)

That's Hilarious!!!  I have a feeling that his property is similar to mine. 


GlennCz

Quote from: schambers on April 25, 2014, 11:03:41 PM
Yes I agree with the forester idea, already respecfuly told logger i am not gonna let him cut it. Didn't want to disapoint but felt like he was taking advantage of me. I know they have many exspenses and the work is hard work but I ran some numbers through a board ft calculator and used bd. ft. prices that the logger told me and things just don't add up for me. He indicated there is a customer price per bd. ft. and a mill price per bd. ft. so i figure his profit is already built in to the operation.

I have no idea what mill vs customer price is.  The truck drops the logs on the ground and leaves.  The grader pays by grade and volume, (you take what he gives you, the logs are laying there!) and splits the money according to a percentage between logger and owner.  This business is all trust and reputation. 

For my harvest of 950 trees "we" got, in 2005
Cherry - 1.09/bdft
Hard Maple - .83/bdft
Soft Maple - .43/bdft

but every single harvest, every truckload, every tree, every property, every region is different.

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