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Chainsaw questions (facts or myths?)

Started by Warbird, August 03, 2007, 12:18:59 AM

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little Bark

There is two ways to look at safety procedures.  Is it a shall or a should. I work for a mechanical contractor that does work for some that it may take up to 1 hr each day just to complete the equipment check lists ect. For them this is a shall and at a huge cost to us.  Yes we can charge more to work there and we do just to recover lost time due to safety procedures. There is always the iterpeneration of the rule.  Do you change the batteries in your somke dectors every year. Is that a shall or a should. Talk to someone that lost everything in a fire this would be a shall.  The family that never had a fire this is a should.  But we all know what the right answer is. 
Always use the rite tool for the job.

tcsmpsi

With regard to 'drop starting', it would ultimately depend on the saw

However, with my 'little' saws, I have no problem drop starting, and have run through limitless scenarios determining my actions. 

If my saws were blade heavy, I would use an accomodating technique.

Once, before I thought about what I was doing, I was successful in drop starting this one while it was all hot and lathered up.



I wouldn't (couldn't?) do it again.   :D

However, holding the saw and setting the end down on the dogs I've done quite a bit.



That's .50" chain on it, by the way.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

little Bark

I THOUGHT I WOULD RESPOND IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU CAN'T HEAR AFTER RUNNING THAT THING. :-\
Always use the rite tool for the job.

Dwayne Ferguson

I start my 395 between my knees the method is hold saw by the rap around (on the bend) place in between knees with your right knee hooked over the rear handle . But drop starts are all good to but it tends to wear the top of the pull start cover and starts cutting the rope 

Mike_Barcaskey

I drop start mine all the time because it is easier on my back. I need to be standing straight up if I'm pulling on that cord.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

tcsmpsi

Quote from: little Bark on April 16, 2008, 11:37:38 AM
I THOUGHT I WOULD RESPOND IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU CAN'T HEAR AFTER RUNNING THAT THING. :-\

Oh, it's not too bad.  You just have to remember to check for dead limbs overhead before you get her to singing.     :D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

beenthere

Quote from: Dwayne Ferguson on April 17, 2008, 06:17:42 AM
............... But drop starts are all good to but it tends to wear the top of the pull start cover and starts cutting the rope 

Doesn't seem to do that with my drop starts.....wonder what I do different  ::) ::) ::)
Drop start seems like less work for me, compared to between the leg starts.  Maybe it is just that I am stubborn somehow.. :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Dwayne Ferguson

yeah or the guys at my work are doing it wrong  :) all the side cover have worn a grove from the rope pulling out side ways as they drop start . but yeah all the small saw i have owned i all ways drop started them and they didn't wear . the two guys I'm thinking of both get saw arms from 5 min on my saw. so maybe they don't control the saw as much as the saw controls them :D

WDH

On you drop-starters tombstone, it will be inscribed:

He was a drop-starter.  May he rest in stubborn peace.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SawTroll

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on August 08, 2007, 01:01:08 PM
I drop-start every time I crank a saw, regardless of how many people say it's not supposed to be done.  I'm not saying I would tell anyone else do it, I just do it because it's easier.  When the chain brake is on, the chain ain't moving until I take the brake off.  I consider the act of releasing the brake, pulling the trigger, and applying the saw to the wood to be many times more dangerous than drop-starting.

For the record:  If my saw didn't have a chain brake, I wouldn't even think about drop-starting it.

I "dropstart" all the time, and have just recently started using the chain brake - but I wouldn't do it on an unknown large saw without a brake....... :-\
Information collector.

tcsmpsi

I have generally led a, more or less, secluded life with regard to tree cutting and what have you, which basically started back yonder with a bunch of pulpwooders.  Not that I was ever really anxious for that particular life, but it provided some good, general knowledge and paid a bill or two.

I've never gone to any 'classes' on the matter and have only experience as a general 'rule book' on the use of chainsaws and their relevant procedures.

So, I'm certain I have missed a great deal of 'finer points' of chainsaw etiquette.  As such, it would be reasonble for myself to be considered stupid in the matter.

Thusly, taking that as a given (my being stupid in the matter, that is), I do not know what the inherent danger of 'drop-starting' a chainsaw is.

I can understand if a saw is too big/heavy for a person to hold with one hand, and I understand that most of today's saws initially start with a  more open throttle than normal idle.

Now, I didn't even know the term "drop start" until I came to the forum.  To me, it has always been just "starting". 

What is supposed to be the danger of "drop starting"?
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

sawguy21

The real danger is having the bar and chain slam into the leg while running. The saw is difficult to control with one hand. I know, I have done it. I did not hit flesh but it was far too close for comfort.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

beenthere

tcsmpsi
I'm with you, pretty much, with this subject.  :) :)

Don't mind others doing it their way.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

tcsmpsi

Well, I notice some pretty strong feelings on the matter, and I am trying to get a grasp of the reasoning in case I have missed something, or am misssing something.

I understand that there is always a danger of getting cut when operating any cutting tool.   That is what they do.  Cut.

Again, I mostly only have my own experience as a guideline, but, I have tried starting 'on the ground' and I feel very awkward when doing so.  I don't feel like I have good enough control of the saw that way, and there's something about being bent over an open, running saw that gives me trepidation.

Looking at it and thinking about it, I know I got my ingrained foundation of "drop starting" when working for Blume Systems (a large tree trimming contractor).   I don't know how else we would have started those old yellow saws while hanging around in the trees.  Though I don't remember anyone ever asking, I feel pretty certain it would have been 'frowned upon' to start them on the ground, and climb with a running saw.  Even though that was a very long time ago.   Besides, those things would seldom idle, anyhow.    :D

I'm certain that some folks a lot smarter than I am have studied (OSHA, etc) and come to regulatory principle on the matter by a learned process. 




\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

beenthere

Quote from: tcsmpsi on April 18, 2008, 12:24:58 PM
.........................I'm certain that some folks a lot smarter than I am have studied (OSHA, etc) and come to regulatory principle on the matter by a learned process. 

I wouldn't count on that one DanG minute.... 8) ::) ::)
;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

little Bark

I do know that I could live high on the hog for several years if I had all the money that they spent on safety training.  Has it made me / us any safer I think not.  They do it because that is what our customers demand.  Being safe is a personal decision.

Here is my take on safety and belive me it is a dying art in this contry.  USE COMMON SENSE it will always keep you alive as long as the guy next to you is using his God given gift also.
Always use the rite tool for the job.

Dan_Shade

safety processes have made a difference in our country.

we all see the funny pictures of guys doing "humorous" things in other countries, it's not like that here due to OSHA and other safety minded requirements.

I have spent a lot of money on safety items.  safety is cheap compared to an injury.

of course I don't agree with all safety things, and I think at the end of the day, if a worker has a for real valid reason to not do a "safe" thing, they he should get his way.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SawTroll

Quote from: tcsmpsi on April 18, 2008, 12:24:58 PM
Well, I notice some pretty strong feelings on the matter, and I am trying to get a grasp of the reasoning in case I have missed something, or am misssing something.

I understand that there is always a danger of getting cut when operating any cutting tool.   That is what they do.  Cut.

Again, I mostly only have my own experience as a guideline, but, I have tried starting 'on the ground' and I feel very awkward when doing so.  I don't feel like I have good enough control of the saw that way, and there's something about being bent over an open, running saw that gives me trepidation.

Looking at it and thinking about it, I know I got my ingrained foundation of "drop starting" when working for Blume Systems (a large tree trimming contractor).   I don't know how else we would have started those old yellow saws while hanging around in the trees.  Though I don't remember anyone ever asking, I feel pretty certain it would have been 'frowned upon' to start them on the ground, and climb with a running saw.  Even though that was a very long time ago.   Besides, those things would seldom idle, anyhow.    :D

I'm certain that some folks a lot smarter than I am have studied (OSHA, etc) and come to regulatory principle on the matter by a learned process. 




You got it all right, as far as I am conserned....... 8) 8)
Information collector.

arojay

It's easy to think that regulators and safety researchers develop the 'rules' through experience, intensive research and trial.  I've met a few of these folks, and I have to say, nothing could be further from the truth!  The approach is academic and bureaucratic.  The WCB/OH&S board here spent a half a million last year on a campaign to tell us that "common sense can't save your life".  Injured worker rate went up after that.  This in a population of only 30,000 souls.  Now they are instituting courses that will be essentially mandatory or you will be harrassed, to teach us all how to work safely.  Do you think that these courses will be developed by long time industry survivors?  Not a chance.  The board recently developed a system of charting the injury claim rate by industry and even by business.  I told them that they should enlist the experience of those businesses who have the lowest injury rate in each sector and let them develop courses and regulations.  They have'nt gotten back to me.
440B skidder, JD350 dozer, Husqvarnas from 335 to 394. All spruced up

rebocardo

> they should enlist the experience of those businesses who have the lowest injury rate

That sounds like good common sense to me, so they probably will not get back to you  :D

John Mc

Quote from: little Bark on April 18, 2008, 02:53:59 PM
Here is my take on safety and belive me it is a dying art in this contry.  USE COMMON SENSE it will always keep you alive as long as the guy next to you is using his God given gift also.

The problem is, common sense ain't all that common these days...
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

SwingOak

Quote from: John Mc on April 24, 2008, 10:44:58 PM
Quote from: little Bark on April 18, 2008, 02:53:59 PM
Here is my take on safety and belive me it is a dying art in this contry.  USE COMMON SENSE it will always keep you alive as long as the guy next to you is using his God given gift also.

The problem is, common sense ain't all that common these days...

It probably ought to be called "rare sense" 'cause so few people actually seem to have it...

Danny Dimm

I've spent close to 30 years in the woods, a large portion of that hanging on to 90cc or bigger saws. And I'm not a very big guy. I can't remember seeing anyone use anything but a drop start on a regular basis. No chain break either. Use your common sense and your whole body. I am constantly almost subconsciencely aware of where the powerhead is. I get real nervous if I feel my legs even to or ahead of the handle bars. As for kickback, I hate short bars. You have to be closer to the work and the kickbacks are more violent. 26' is as short as I like. I usually run 28'. Raker height has a lot to do with it as well. But that's a trade off too. To high the saw wont bite. When I was young and bucking full time the first thing I'd do to a new chain was take the rakers half off. [075 stihl] It could grab limb a foot and a half long by two or three inches wide and fire it thirty feet behind you. You only got your shins in the way once. Had to be real aware of where the tip was and you have to do most of your work with the tip. If your not real experinced, use a raker gauge. I pretty much always use one when I'm falling.

Larry

When I took GOL training in 99 Soren Erickson told our class how the between the knees start began.  OSHA had just started writing the safety rules for logging.  They invited expert input from the Forest Products Industry.  Soren was one of the team members.  Both sides agreed the drop start was extremely dangerous...all they had to do was look at accident reports.  OSHA was adamant that the only safe way to start a saw was on the ground.  The FPI team looked at the ground start as a rule that loggers would never accept.  Eventually they came up with the between the knees start as a compromise.

Soren Erickson is the best cutter I have ever seen and also one of the smarter men I have met.  If he says to start between the knees that's what I'm gonna do.  I like to avoid the sight of blood...especially my blood.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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