Concern on Sawmilling Black Walnuts

[ben5398]

I live in central Illinois, rural Bloomington, and have found a person who will bring his sawmill to our farm.  We have some 25 black walnuts we have taken down, ranging from 18 inches to 30 inches by 16-20 feet long.  I am a little nervous as he stated .07 per board foot for sawmilling.  When I talked to him a second time he said sawmilling a  30 inch diameter by 20 foot tree into 2"x8"x10's would cost of milling around $270 a tree after mentioning how he was amazed at the cost of black walnut (he had looked up 2x8x10s at home depot).  Figuring board feet at 7 cents a board foot the cost is closer to $80 a log. 

What makes me nervous is that he was suprized at the cost of black walnut, something I knew and I am not a person who owns a mill, and second that after stating the suprize at the cost he then said $270 a tree  to mill, which seems really high.

I want to sell some to help cover costs and use the rest to have a bedroom set made/save for later.

Thanks in advance.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hello Ben, 

I only do specialty milling so my advice is a little one sided. You will, I'm sure, get a good broad range of advice from folk here on the forum.  Some sawyers only work by the hour, others by the board foot.  To each their own.  I do recommend to clients that they go with Board Foot millers, but that is my bias, either way you should have a contract and there should be some clear expectations of what will be taking place.

$0.07/bf seem like a mistake?  I haven't heard of a price that inexpensive in years if not decades.  A log that is 20 feet long and averages 30" in diameter is a big tree with a lot of wood in it and a lot of work.  That should yield roughly 840 bf.  So if his second price was $270.00 for milling that log, that would be ~ $0.32/bf which seem like a more realistic price than .07/bf. 

You should be able to call the Illinois Ag agency and get a lead on some Foresters in you area that have information that you may find useful.  Also, you potential Sawyers should give you references.

Good luck,

jay

[Ianab]

I agree with Jay, the $270 to saw the log you describe sounds about right, and probably works out 25-30c bd/ft. Maybe he meant 27 cents? That seems to be more like the going rate anyway.

The 7 cents would be less than the cost of running the mill. Fuel, blades, maintenance etc.

But with relatively valuable wood like walnut it's certainly worth doing.  Get 800 bd ft from that log, sell 1/2 of it for a couple of $ bd/ft and you are ahead on the deal, and still have plenty of boards left to build something.

Walnut air dries easily, bugs don't tend to attack it etc, so it's one of the easier woods to process with basic air drying.

Ian

[Nomad]

     The above guys are right.  $0.07 per bf has to be a misunderstanding.  If he's bringing the mill to you, for that price, he'd be better off to just mail you $50 and stay home.  At that price he'd be losing money to do the job.

[kelLOGg]

The 2nd price is reasonable; switching prices is not. It may take tact to ask for references or if you can see what he has sawn in the past but it may ease your mind.
Bob

[Nomad]

The 2nd price is reasonable; switching prices is not. It may take tact to ask for references or if you can see what he has sawn in the past but it may ease your mind.
Bob

     Agreed.  Switching prices is a no-no in my book; if I mess up a price I deal with the mistake, not the customer.  I just can't see anybody quoting a price of $0.07 per bf for mobile milling.
     I also can't see a sawyer comparing the price of green rough sawn anything to the retail price for clear, kiln dried, s4s boards.  Something doesn't sound right here to me.

[slider]

I agree with the others,his price should be based on how difficult the wood is to saw not what it's worth at the box store.Then again I am amazed at what they get for their hardwood.May be he just had sticker shock.

[Magicman]

First, Welcome to the Forestry Forum, ben5398.

The "value" of the log/lumber should have no bearing whatsoever on the sawing price/cost and I concur with the above responses. 

[stumpy]

I also question his statement about pricing black walnut at Home Depot.  Not only have I never seen it at home depot, I doubt that they would sell it as 2x8's. I would question his experience level.

[dgdrls]

Ben 5398,

welcome to the forum,
Sounds like a miscommunication to me and perhaps a fortunate one for you?

The sawyers who have commented are an experienced bunch and have presented valuable knowledge.
Forget $0.07/BF or the price of lumber at any Big Box store as a comparison value.

Keep shopping around for a sawyer who can saw what you want and be prepared to pay a fair price for the service.
Ask for references, good mobile sawyers leave a trail of happy customers.

Best
DGDrls

[Bogue Chitto]

Welcome Ben.  You are better off if you find another sawyer.  :new_year:

[okmulch]

I am milling some black walnut right now for a guy and I am charging .45 a board foot. I am using a Wood mizer lt40 manual mill. These logs range from 14 inches to 26 inches and 8 to 10 foot long.Just thought I would let you know what I am charging. The customer is extremely happy with the out come. His only expense is bringing me the logs and paying me . He works for a company cleaning a right of way and they were going to chip these logs up.

[Kansas]

We are at .45 as well.

Couple of things. If that log measures 30" inside bark at the small end, you will get an overrun of lumber, and it will cost a little more. Rarely do sawyers go by the log on what the log measures.Its what they get out of it. Second, walnut prices are up right now in log form. You might want a walnut log buyer or two to take a look and see if any of those go for veneer. If you can get 4 or 6 bucks a board foot for a veneer, unless you just need a heck of a pile of long walnut, you might pay most or all of your cutting bill by selling a few of them off if they are. Do bear in mind they would have to be fresh cut to be veneer.

[thecfarm]

ben5398,welcome to the forum. Have a buyer or buyers for the walnut set up? Sometimes it can be a hard sell. The lumber will have to be stored and stickered somewheres,unless someone is just about buying it right off the mill.

[ben5398]

We cut most of the logs a couple days back, don't know much about veneer.

The grove we have was planted by the second gerneration at our farm back in the late 1800's  The ones we cut were on the way out.  Because of the family significance and my wife and I living in the house that is original to the farmstead we want a bed set that is befitting the house, with a nice 1800's style feel.  Something that can be passed down.  2 dressers, queen bed, 2 bedside stands, a chest for blankets at the foot of the bed and desk.  I know the cost of woodworking will be great, and there is no way we can afford it now so we will have the wood sitting drying, then after dry, stored in our old barn for several years. 

None of the interiors of the trees are 30, only with bark on one or two of them reach that with the bark, even then it is a short 30.  Most are between 20-25, a few between 16 and 20.

With all of this said, there is no way we could afford the 3-5 thousand you would be talking as an input cost.  So selling some in log form may be needed to meet the input cost. 

[beenthere]

How was length of the logs determined? 16-20 ft seems longer than what you would want for walnut lumber.

Contact your state, county or consulting forester, and ask if someone will look at your logs for a recommendation what to do next. They will know about walnut buyers as well as sawmills that are in the area. Avoid the one you have already mentioned. The forester will be able to check out veneer possibilities as well.

Your logs should be ok for a good while, so just because they are down doesn't mean you need to rush your decisions.

[ben5398]

We cut them to the lengths that were straight sections.  I am not opposed to cutting them down (8-10ft sections) if we are best off doing so, I will wait till someone looks at them before doing anything more.  We just brought them to a pile in our pasture to wait till we go to the next step. Till spring they are not in the way of anything. I am looking up info online from the Illinois DNR, they have a list of all licensed buyers, there are 4 listed that are not too far from me.

[bama20a]

wondering if the .7 bf charge was for the transport & set up of the mill,Plus X amount for the bf of the lumber milled,Anyway sounds like some misinfo-to me also. Mark,,,,

[mad murdock]

How did you take the trees down? Cut at the stump? If so you left the most valuable piece in the ground! The root ball of the black walnut with a few feet of trunk attached is extremely valuable. That is where the high value stock is milled from. 

[ben5398]

We had left them a couple feet cut above the ground, however, when I went to work, my father had our hired hand go and cut them at ground level to prep for his stump grinder (hired hand owns tree service).  I had planned on digging them out with my fathers new to us mini excavator.

[ben5398]

I did save a couple nice crotches.  One I plan on turning into the top of a bar in my basement.  The other two I would cut to sell.

[mad murdock]

How many trees did you take down? If you did not get any rootballs, and further cut all stumps to ground level, I hate to bear bad news, but it may be difficult to salvage any high value stock. Sounds like it has already been done and gone. If you have anyone who specializes in walnut in your area it might pay to ask them if there is value in the rootball yet, could be. I just know that the difference in value of a walnut log 8-10 ft long vs the value of that same log with the rootball still attached is probably 5x or more greater. Another case where you just don't want Togo cutting a tree willy nilly without consulting a reputable source first(Forester), unless you are well versed on the subject of course. I hope you are able to get all the value you can out of what is left, would be a shame to grind up high value stock, and have to pay for that to boot!

[Jay C. White Cloud]

MM is more than correct. If you  have any other nice BW you need to have them looked at first. When I take BW and a few other species, it's labor intensive, but I climb them, rope the tops, cut the main roots and "tip the tree,"  you do not want to loose that root ball-trunk connection and the stock inside it.

Regards,  jay

[ben5398]

I dont think there is any value left, but I could check.  I had intended on saving them, we had about 3 feet attached to 8, the rest were hollow at the ground.  My father had said he was going to wait to clean it up with me on Saturday, but he got a bug up his behind and had everything cleaned up and stacked by the end of the next day.  Turned out my mother had other plans for Saturday so he went out and just started doing what he thought was right.  He did not know better, the idea of saving the logs for lumber and all research has been done by me.  He is just a farmer that has no interest in lumber or trees.  In the past he just cut them up and burned them on the spot. 

[beenthere]

ben
I wouldn't worry too much about it. What might have been is water over the dam, so to speak.
Move on from here and good luck getting the logs pedaled so that you get your woodworking material dried and ready to use.
Getting stumps out and to the high value markets is iffy at best, and even getting them processed for some gun stock material is a lot of extra work and the outcome not guaranteed.

Your father sounds like my Uncle. The benefit to him was get the walnut out of that good pasture and corn ground as soon and as easy as possible. The veneer logs were taken, the stumps left for grubbing out, and the non-veneer logs sawn into hog house building material. Thrown green into the old chicken coop in the hayloft of the barn like jackstraws to dry. Remember sorting through that pile to find some straight enough to hammer together another hog shelter.

Wish you the best contacting a forester or buyer to look at your logs.