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A members saw..see anything different?

Started by weimedog, January 11, 2011, 03:26:02 PM

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weimedog

He can tell you all about it... :D (If he chooses) :P




Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

Its missing its tires and front suspension?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Cut4fun

Seen that one a couple years ago it seems. Way up north and to the west of me I think.  ;)

Troutfisher


lumberjack48

Hang on to your butt, your in for a ride !!!!!
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Cut4fun

Quote from: Troutfisher on January 11, 2011, 04:07:46 PM
The bar is on the wrong side :o

No No those are for lefty operators TF.   ;D

There is a old looking one for sale with the bar on the wrong side too.   :o

Troutfisher


Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Troutfisher

Looks like the bar has been lightened quite a bit, what kind of filler is in there? Some kind of lightweight plastic maybe?

fuzzybear

I never met a tree I didn't like!!

Cut4fun

Quote from: Troutfisher on January 11, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Looks like the bar has been lightened quite a bit, what kind of filler is in there? Some kind of lightweight plastic maybe?

This guy can tell you. HolmenTree.  I lost all that saved info when rs went down and my memory isnt so good anymore.

Troutfisher

I don't mind a little weight in the front, the darn things want to wheelie on the starts.....but that probably depends on how well the saw is balanced to begin with.

weimedog

You know the thing that makes me wonder is if its possible to get more power out of a Tillotson than a conventional float type?
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Troutfisher

My saw has a float carb, it works well but jet changes mean taking the carb apart. An adjustable carb like the Tilly is really nice......just grab a screwdriver.

CX3

I WANT ONE.  dont know what id do with it but I WANT ONE
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

celliott

YPVS- Yamaha powervalve system.  I know that because I got a yamaha sled thats got 3 powervalves and 3 pipes  ;D
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

HolmenTree

Quote from: weimedog on January 11, 2011, 03:26:02 PM
He can tell you all about it... :D (If he chooses) :P





Jeeze weimedog :D I thought we were gonna talk about your Jonsereds. :o :D
Good job transferring that photo onto here, an old dog like me  sure couldn't have done it. Even when I built this saw almost 30 yrs ago that was rocket science for me, now my 9 yr old grand daughter shows me how be computer savvy. Maybe she can help me "computerize" this saw.
Fellas back in the day [early '80s] A farm boy brought a 400cc Husqvarna motorcycle engine with a bar and chain on it to our local chainsaw competition and turned everything upside down. Then my brothers brought some Mculloch 125 go kart saws, then I ended up building this. A Yamaha YZ 125cc dirt bike engine with a 42 mm Tillotson HD snowmobile carb on it. Alot head scratching and trial & error I got it cutting the best it can, roughly a little better then 100 sq inches per second in green spruce.
weimedog here who started this post gave me a link of a fellow who is an expert at modifing these little engines. So this might be a good winter project for me ,dust off the cobwebs [haven't raced this saw for many years] and put a little more life into her.

Willard.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

weimedog

So I have what's probably a stupid but complex question but have to ask:

Assumptions:
1) There is a certain amount of horsepower requires to drag a chain thru those "cants" at a given ft. per second of chain speed at a given pressure.
2) The amount of horsepower required increases as the chain speed goes up.
3) The amount of horsepower required increases as the pressure increases on the chain.
4) There is a point of diminishing returns as far as pressure per given chain speed is concerned.
5) There is a point of diminishing returns to increasing chain speed.
6) Transitions from cut to cut factor in.....
7) All of the above if blended with the physical capabilities of the guy holding on to the saw. And there is a point of diminishing returns in how much HP a guy can actually use.

Where am I going with this ?

Something along these lines:
I have to wonder if conceptually a 35hp 15,000 RPM 125cc machine could cut as fast theoretically as, say a 45HP 13,000 RPM 250cc because there is enough HP to pull the faster RPM's and a potentially lighter package to make transition easier from cut to cut...assuming both can pull the chain at close to the maximum useful speed (big assumption)and pressure the guy on the saw can handle with the proper gearing (sprocket).

Shoot for enough HP at a given chain speed in the smallest and lightest package possible when building a bike saw. If that logic holds...then:

Wondering if it would make sense to find a blown up 2001-2002 KTM 125 to build a saw out of....those were the pinnacle of 125 horsepower stock. (Close to 40HP) vs. going for more displacement. Or taking something like this Yamaha & having a real builder with numbers to back up the mods build it into a 35hp + screamer...most of those Japanese 125's from the 1980's on can make well over 30 HP at the crank when built.

Just a question....
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

nmurph

willard, your clutch cover is on upside down.

Weime,
don't confuse stock power with potential power. how an engine is ported from the factory and the resulting power doesn't necessarily correspond with what a builder can extract from a given chunk of aluminum. consider the 262. it is considered a model of stock hp/cc, but there isn't a whole lot more to be gained with a woods port. whereas, a 359 can be built into quite a runner with similar work.

weimedog

Quote from: nmurph on January 12, 2011, 07:50:24 AM
willard, your clutch cover is on upside down.

Weime,
don't confuse stock power with potential power. how an engine is ported from the factory and the resulting power doesn't necessarily correspond with what a builder can extract from a given chunk of aluminum. consider the 262. it is considered a model of stock hp/cc, but there isn't a whole lot more to be gained with a woods port. whereas, a 359 can be built into quite a runner with similar work.


Crappy Pic of me on My 1982 "Bike Saw"...:) since I did this game by myself (Almost 30years) ..I have precious few pics of the period:
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

nmurph


weimedog

Early YZ's or RM's? I started with red.. :D (Bultaco's) (Early 70's) Went to Yellow & Silver (Maico's) to White (KTM's), then Green (Kawi's)...THEN Red (Honda)....quit the Motocross thing after 17 years (Early Ninties) and discovered Hare Scrambles & AHRMA Late ninties with Blue&Black Italian Husqvarna's & Black (VOR's) for RMEC Hare Scrambles....& Had White..and the other White(1980 era Husqvarna's) for AHMRA and still do ( quit the racing thing 2001 after injury&life forced the decision). (now have VOR, KTM, Husky) had a short spell on yellow (RM250 late 1980's) Have one still....you will probably be the only one who understands all that jibberish!

But enough of that! This is about saws.... 8)

BTW..checked out your gallery..LOVE that Merc! (Disston) I had one, actually two and traded them to a fellow out in the PNW who's a big player in the saw game at another site....Never had the time to do them justice so I figured they would have a better chance at life in another place & time. Still have a pile of old merc parts, mostly 4 cylinder stuff from another time.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

HolmenTree

Quote from: weimedog on January 12, 2011, 07:33:44 AM
So I have what's probably a stupid but complex question but have to ask:

just a question....
Well weimedog yes everything is theory until proven by practical experience.
To build a hotsaw for speedcutting competition out of a motorcycle engine. There is two major factors, first let me state the 2nd least important one: a reliable high h.p. moto cross motorcycle engine. The #1 factor: is the sawchain, drive sprocket and guide bar.
Yes the best accessory for a chain/sprocket and bar is a strong reliable powerhead.

You build your saw around your type of log cutting. My old friend Gary Walrath from Portland Oregon held the world record in cutting one cut [hot start] through a 30" diameter douglas fir[darn tough wood] in a little over 2 seconds with his Husqvarna 500cc bikesaw. Garys saw cost about $30,000 to build.
But the saw was secondary. Gary was a longtime field engineer for the Oregon sawchain co. So you can see the importance of the sawchain.

Now if you are planning on cutting 10"X 10" aspen with 3 cuts and a cold start you need ergonomics, lightweight powerhead with a very quick throttle response and high rpm.
Another old friend of mine who was a 7 time world lumberjack champion Ron Hartill ran an Italian 135cc go-kart engine called a B-Bomb, dual alcohol carbs with a  rotary valve induction. His saw was very light and compact and he beat bikesaws in the 250cc catagory. Ron was a wizard with alcohol fuel and sharpening his sawchain.
Now to my Yamaha YZ125. Ron told me it needs to go on a diet and be rebuilt as compact as possible. Something after 30 yrs I haven't done yet. When I 1st built that saw from reliable information that 125J engine put out 35 h.p. stock in the bike right out of the factory. Now from 34mm to 42mm carb, no transmission, water pump, shortened exhaust pipe stinger I estimate now close to 40hp.
The engine is already  lightweight and strong so for cutting 10"X10"s I want to stick with it. I will find a good engine builder who can mod the porting,squish etc and run it on alcohol fuel. Rebuild the whole saw with exhaust fuel tanks etc on the left of the b/c so the bar and top handle grip position are in the center of the powerhead for the best ergonomics. Then put it on a diet and remove about 10 lbs.

Yes trial and error.

Willard.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

weimedog

That was the answer I was looking for!  :D Thank you! :P

(There is an old saying I've over used.."If your a hammer, evrything looks like a nail!" I spent a life time on motocross bikes! So obviously they (In my simple world to this point) have to be the solution to all problems from world peace to saw competition! And..I keep forgetting the motorcycle world things in Rear Wheel HP vs. raw engine HP which is all that important here)

So in essence, design the bar & chain or buy a really good one; then figure out the lightest package possible with enough power & RPM's to maximize the Bar & Chain package..regardless of he origins of that power plant.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

HolmenTree

Quote from: weimedog on January 12, 2011, 12:05:38 PM
That was the answer I was looking for!  :D Thank you! :P

In essence, design the bar & chain or buy a really good one; then figure out the lightest package possible with enough power & RPM's to maximize the Bar & Chain package..regardless of he origins of that power plant.
Yes you are on track.
When I first built that saw alot of interest was generated from Yamaha technicians who tried to "help" me in making that saw cut to the max. One tech said run the factory 34mm carb and the tune pipes factory length stinger. The saw was a dog and I found a short 8" stinger and the 42 mm easy to set Tillotson was the best. I had the ignition timing set by the Yamaha book and still couldn't figure out why I was stalling the saw dead in the middle of the cut. Years later after trial and error I advanced the ignition timing plate as far as it could go and end of stalling problem and even more WOT h.p.

I think of all the wasted competitons where I occassionaly stalled  this saw and all I had to do was adjust a little ignition timing

Now welcome alcohol fuel science. :D

Willard.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Cut4fun

Quote from: weimedog on January 12, 2011, 10:00:06 AM
Early YZ's or RM's? I started with red.. :D (Bultaco's) (Early 70's) Went to Yellow & Silver (Maico's) to White (KTM's), then Green (Kawi's)...THEN Red (Honda)....quit the Motocross thing after 17 years (Early Ninties) and discovered Hare Scrambles & AHRMA Late ninties with Blue&Black Italian Husqvarna's & Black (VOR's) for RMEC Hare Scrambles....& Had White..and the other White(1980 era Husqvarna's) for AHMRA and still do ( quit the racing thing 2001 after injury&life forced the decision). (now have VOR, KTM, Husky) had a short spell on yellow (RM250 late 1980's) Have one still....you will probably be the only one who understands all that jibberish!



Man you rode about everything  :o. But I see no love for the orange Can Am 400 like I rode when I lived in MT and was able to keep the white KTM's at bay sometimes.   http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/can-am_mx6_400_1980.php

HolmenTree

Yes at the time the CanAms were very fast bikes. They had the rotary valve induction which was more precise and efficent over the Japanese reed valve motors. Sven Johnson won 9 or 10 powersaw world championships at Hayward Wisconson with his CanAm 250 bikesaw since the mid 70s to mid 80s. His best was 3 cuts in a 20" pine log in a little over 7 seconds ,hands on the log then starting the saw included in the time.

Willard.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Troutfisher

[
Quote from: weimedog on January 12, 2011, 07:33:44 AM


Now if you are planning on cutting 10"X 10" aspen with 3 cuts and a cold start you need ergonomics, lightweight powerhead with a very quick throttle response and high rpm.
Willard.
[/quote]

I agree, in small wood you spend more time getting the saw started and with changeovers than actually cutting wood.

Cut4fun

Quote from: Troutfisher on January 12, 2011, 04:35:27 PM
[
Quote from: weimedog on January 12, 2011, 07:33:44 AM

Now if you are planning on cutting 10"X 10" aspen with 3 cuts and a cold start you need ergonomics, lightweight powerhead with a very quick throttle response and high rpm.
Willard.

I agree, in small wood you spend more time getting the saw started and with changeovers than actually cutting wood.
[/quote]

That one guy running that bikesaw on Ed's site on video, that set a new world record in ???x??? cant remember. Was about the best I seen a guy do change overs with a bikesaw lately.


HolmenTree

Moyal is a big sized dude which greatly helps in handling that saw. Very quick, almost sounds like the saw wasn't opening up all that much,  but just might be the microphone sound quality. Almost looked like he cut out on the last cut.
A narrow [no belly] bar is an advantage in the changeover between cuts but hard to do with these big oversized sprockets they run on these bikesaws.
What engine is that?

Willard.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

 I saw Rick Halverson set some type of a record on 8 by's in the masters event at the Paul Bunyan show .Seems to me 2.9 seconds with a Rotax .Lawdy I can't imagine drop starting one of those things but he did it .

From what I've seen the sled engine or bike engine saws do better on big wood that cants .

HolmenTree

Quote from: Al_Smith on January 12, 2011, 09:10:13 PM
I saw Rick Halverson set some type of a record on 8 by's in the masters event at the Paul Bunyan show .Seems to me 2.9 seconds with a Rotax .Lawdy I can't imagine drop starting one of those things but he did it .

From what I've seen the sled engine or bike engine saws do better on big wood that cants .
Rick Halvorson is 6' 4" 300lbs. Big guys do well dropstarting and handling hotsaws. His wife Penny is a master on the hotsaws too. They've been doing it for many years now.

Willard.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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