New shed construction

[Randy88]

I didn't want to side track another thread so I'm starting a new one, I'm wanting to put up a new shed, a big one 60x160 and at least 18 foot of clearance, we've been looking at a lot of options and idea's, I've had steel frame buildings on rented farms and we had problems with them, had post pole buildings with the posts in the ground and over time the posts rotted off and also had cement footings and cement walls and the put the building up on those, most of the sheds on my farm now are done this way, and in great shape actually, so I figured we'd do it again, put a footing and wall about four feet in the ground and foot above ground and anchor the posts to the top of them with angle irons and lag bolts cemented into the wall.   

The issue we've been having is to buy the building and pricing, seems nobody likes my wall idea at all, some claim its too tall of a building to put on a wall and it weakens the strength of the building because there are no poles that anchor the building down?   I can see this in the construction phase of the building but not once its done, everyone seems to worry about the whole concept, during construction the most and then once its done they claim it'll be far weaker, I just figured the builders didn't want to do something they'd not been used to doing before, I've yet to tell anyone we'd put it up ourselves and hire some help to do it, not sure if that makes a difference or not.   

Then next issue we've been having is a lean on one side, later on down the road I'd like to put a lean along one entire length of the shed, everyone is trying to talk me out of this, citing too expensive, too much weight to add to too high of a building and the list is endless to reasons why I shouldn't do this.    Does anyone here think of a realistic reason why I shouldn't do a lean, any of what I've been told rational or are they just trying to sell me a wider and longer building right from the start?

Onto the subject of posts, it might just be me, but I can't get good creosoted posts anymore, and the pressure treated one's in my opinion are not worth putting in.    I've been thinking about screwing planks together and make the posts that way, if they are not into the ground, I'm not seeing a reason why not to do this, anyone have other idea's or suggestions.    On a couple buildings I've priced, they've used 6x6's or the same amount of nailed together planks, like I was thinking, but I'm not thinking a 6x is heavy enough, so how heavy is overkill, I was thinking 8 foot on center and using 10x10's or is that crazy thinking for the height I"m going or is the height not the issue at all?

[Qweaver]

If you are anywhere close to salt water, you can still buy CCA treated to salt water specs that will last for at least your lifetime.  Probably several lifetimes. 

[Randy88]

No I live in the mid west over a thousand miles any direction from salt water, but our ground is really wet and needs a lot of tile so we can farm it, some area's don't have water issues and the posts last a long time, but for me anything in the ground is rotted off in less than 20 years or so, the older posts that were creosoted entirely through lasted decades, but not the new one's, they seem to only be creosoted in an inch or two at most and the center of the posts rot out and get mushy over time, the treated posts are even worse in my opinion. 

[grweldon]

I have a couple of comments..

First, as a matter of symantics, is a building as big as the one you are specifying really still classify as a "shed"?  I think it would be more of a "barn" type building....  ;D

I don't see anything wrong with a footing/wall in the ground.  You don't specify where you live in your profile.  This would help a bit.  I'll assume you live in an area where the frost line is about 48" hence the specification that the wall would be 4' in the ground.  You also don't specify if the wall will be concrete blocks, reinforced concrete or unreinforced concrete.  I would avoid the latter like the plage, especially if it's 4' in the ground.  If it's 18" high and 12" thick, that's another story.

The house that my stepfather built was a split-level house, second floor on top of the first, about 18' tall from the bottom-level floor to the top of the second floor ceiling joists with a 5/12 pitch roof.  It was built on top of an 8 course high block wall (8" per block) dug in to the ground.  It had a 4-6" concrete floor poured for the first level floor which was about 4' under grade level all around.  It was a nice house.

The construction method you mention is not new.  It's been used for decades.  The issue to consider is if you need the inside of the building to be freespan... no supporting posts inside.  If this is the case, you can have roof trusses built or use steel, both of which are engineered solutions and can be costly and both would require cranes to install.  I'm assuming you already know crane(s) will be required for your building anyway?

Pressure treated posts on top of a block or concrete foundation wall that is 1' above ground will last a lifetime.  Although they might be availabe, good luck finding 10x10 pressure treated posts.  You may be able to find 8x8s, but I think that would be doubtful as well.  I believe you will have to have timbers milled and then custom treated if you want them that big.  The question is do you need them that big.  A 6x6 might be suitable.  Have you priced 6x6x16' or 18' pressure treated lumber lately?  Quite expensive, especially if you want to use 8' spacing, however, that would provide you with plenty of structural strength.

There is an area of concern when using posts bolted to a foundation wall.  If hit by something with sufficient mass, it will move from it's intended location with localized damage.  A sound post that is set in to the ground 48" isn't going to move when nudged with a medium to larged sized tractor.  It will stop a small tractor in it's tracks if traveling at safe tractor speeds.

These are all things to consider when constructing any outbuilding, but in general I see nothing wrong with your desired construction techniques...

Oh yeah, I don't see any problems with the lean-tos.  I'm going to be doing the same thing...

[beenthere]

Randy
Put your location (at least general loc ) in your profile, and it will help a lot with answering your questions.
You can do that by going to your profile.
Not knowing where abouts in the midwest you are, limits answers that may not help you.

And just placing the loc in one post gets lost easily. ;)

[Randy88]

I live in northeast Iowa and maybe my kids can help update my profile, I'm not that computer literate and get things messed up pretty fast doing it alone, my kids set this profile up for me and said "don't mess with it".

I want to have it a poured wall with rebar inside it both vertical and horizontal, not sure yet on the width of the wall but we're also going above ground on any portion of it we plan to back trucks and trailers into the building, so it'll scrub along the wall instead of bashing posts,maybe about 4-5 feet above ground on that portion of the walls [wife requested that], she's the one backing trucks inside and was worried, so the walls will look pretty weird till we put the building up, some will be higher than others, and the whole thing will be clear span inside, with one partial wall open to the south for bays to drive or back inside.

We're thinking doors on the west end, the building would sit west and east and the doors we're planning would be 30 feet wide in the center of the end wall and 15 feet slide each way, and then if those are closed have two more on each side and slide to the middle so we can back or drive in those bays or not all at the same time the whole end can be opened up and have 4-15 foot bays.    Now I didn't see anything wrong with this but some of the places I'm asking questions to are telling me it won't work, I wouldn't have enough bracing in that end of the shed due to the doors, I understand I'd loose headroom but I could have doors that were only 14 or 15 feet tall and use the top portion for bracing and use headers to stiffen up the ends, but I'm being told it won't work??

Yes I know we'll have to have a crane set the rafters, that or a large telehandler with a jib on it, I'm not too concerned with that we're looking at a telehandler anyhow for installing a basket on it to do work higher up in the air anyhow.   

I'm just wanting to know or figure out how to make the strongest building without going overkill, to avoid problems later on down the road of life.  I've looked at some of the package deals that are out there for a building and when you actually look at how its constructed I get very nervous and have visions of snow loads and building collapses and things like that.  I'd rather spend the money upfront than years later wished I have done it better in the first place.   

[DDDfarmer]

We have a 70x140 pole barn with a 17' ceiling. old bridge pillings and hydro poles.  will try to get pictures later.

[beenthere]

Now really Randy.... just click on your name and you will see your profile, and a button right next to it that says "Modify Profile" .  Follow the prompts.

Simple as that.  ;) ;)

As for poles, I purchased the treated laminated posts, and they are many lengths but the top end laminates are not glued. Left for cutting at the right heights to allow rim boards to be bolted on in the notch. Much better treatment of the individual laminates vs. treating the solid poles and not much difference in price.

I bought mine at a lumber yard near Reedsburg, WI but suspect any farm lumber yard in IA will also have access to the same materials, especially if catering to the pole barn business.

[red oaks lumber]

randy
a building with a wall that tall will not withstand a big wind load without having your posts achored in the ground.
if your worried about posts rotting off they now have concrete posts that go above the groung line a couple of feet.at that point there looks to be a good fastening hardware.
putting a lean off the one side, i dont see as a problem. what is your pitch? is the proposed lean going to be on the downward side of snow drifting?
we built a building once that was 80 x200 clear span with 20 ' sidewall
gweldon
something that size is a shed. a barn is what you milk cows in.

[Randy88]

Red oaks lumber, never heard of the cement posts before, can you elaborate some more on how they work differently than just attaching the posts to the top of a cement wall.    We've talked about doing a metal frame supports and rafters with wood attached to that for the support structure, those have a wide base that's actually bolted with large bolts onto the cement wall.   

As for the pitch, I'm wanting at least a 4/12 pitch, was talking a 5/12 but everyone seems to frown on that for some reason, the pitch on the lean would be the same as the shed pitch, we're thinking about putting the lean on the north side of the shed also running east and west the full length............someday.   I'm wanting to put the wall on the north side of the shed in the ground deeper, due to the slope of the ground, the lean would start a couple feet lower than the ground level inside the shed, we'd have to put pilasters on the inside of the shed wall to help hold the wall in place.     

Now that said, would the lean actually anchor the building more or deter from the strength of it, a major disagreement among those I've talked to.  My thought was it would add to the strength of the overall building but most say no, just the opposite.   

[SPIKER]

I 2nd (or 3rd) the Laminated Treated Posts, (made up of glued treated 2x6's made into several sizes 6x6 or 6x8 etc.)   They have been using them for high phone/electrical poles and are like 10"x30" 100 foot plus high in our area.

Putting the posts into the ground will make it good and new posts will last long time.  It is not uncommon to do what you are proposing tho.   I would cast in anchor points IF you do go with the poured concrete foundation.   It can be made with steel vs wood as well so go for it.  Height no big deal, just look at the skyscrapers out there ;)

Mark

[Randy88]

Spiker, what are you referring to when you say anchor points, if the posts are set on a cement wall.    Could you elaborate a little more on what an anchor point is.   

[sandhills]

Randy88, in your op you said you'd had trouble with steel framed buildings, mind if I ask what they were?  As far as your plans I'd say go for it, I helped a neighbor raise an old hog finishing barn 16' off it's original stem walls (4') to make a machine shed, anchored basically the same way you're thinking.  His building wasn't quite as big though, if I remember right it was 50x100, it originally had a 8' eave and it took 12 telehandlers to lift it, quite the deal but we had it 16' taller in a matter of about 2 hours and by the end of the day it was completely studded, braced, and wrapped with 1x4's, it was a long day though, so far it's seen a lot of wind and nothings moved.

[Randy88]

On those sheds everything was metal, I think they are called z perlons where the tin is fastened to, those all rusted out and it was a disaster, the snow caused problems with snow loads, the roof buckled in places due to no strength left, the screws would vibrate loose and then there was no way to tighten them back up.   On the sheds that were metal construction and had livestock in, it was a far worse, everything rusted out in a matter of years. 

I've been doing some looking online and they have what they call hybrid buildings, an open metal truss frame and wood purlons to fasten the tin to, which I'd think would be ideal the best of both worlds, metal for the frame and wood to fasten the tin to so it stays tight and the purlons wouldn't rust out.     The metal buildings we had also had a 1/12 pitch, far too little for snow to slide off on a regular basis, which compounded the problem a lot.     I'd also think all the purlons should be bolted to the open truss's, not just screwed on, for some reason the screws just never held like they should have.   

Then to add insult to injury on an all steel building, you couldn't pound a nail in anywhere to hang up anything and the rusted purlons wouldn't hold a thing if you tried to hang anything from them, in the right application they worked fine, but not for what we were using them for.    The z perlons would also make an ideal place for birds to make nests in, and crap all over everything the entire length of the shed, on wood buildings they can't sit or nest on the roof purlons as badly, and the rafters don't have that ledge that the z metal does to make it as attractive to build nests in either, some do, but for some reason every bird known to mankind loved those z perlons and nested in those sheds instead.   

I know its not much to complain about, but I hated those sheds for almost two decades and swore I'd never own or have another shed with those style of perlons again, the open truss's were fine and were strong for what they were, far better than a wood truss but the rest of the building had a lot to be desired, it didn't take long to realize its not just one component that sells a building and makes it last, its everything combined or its not worth putting up.  I have no idea how many times I was up on the roof in the winter shoving snow off to keep the roofs from collapsing, so when people tell me I'm nuts for wanting a 5/12 pitch, I personally hate shoveling snow, least of all up on a roof.   

[DaleK]

Almost every new dairy barn I've seen here in the last decade is built exactly as you describe, concrete wall with pole construction on top. That's with buildings up to 110' wide. They use various methods to anchor the posts to the walls.

I hear you on the PT 6x6s, I haven't seen a decent one here in years. I have a bunch of oak and maple posts cut to use on my next building.