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Embarrassing admission....

Started by joejkd, June 24, 2012, 10:28:24 PM

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joejkd

I suck at sharpening chain. There, I said it. I've tried with a simple file guide, with a granberg, even bought one of those harbour freight sharpeners. I can't seem to get it right.

I know it's not my bar as if I put a new chain on I'm right as rain. I'm using a Homelite UT10888 (I know, I know, but I've done alot of work with it so far). It's an 18" bar and 3/8 low profile is the only chain you can put on it as far as I know.

Any way, I tried with the granberg but I have no idea what depth it should be at. I know they say 20% of the file should be over the top plate, but 20% of 5/32" isn't the most obvious thing in the world to acheive.

I tried with the harbour freight grinder, and I read all the reviews (even some on this forum) saying it was pretty decent. However, I can't figure out where to set the thing. They say lower the depth until it barely touches, but they don't mention how far in to push the chain also. Since there's 2 dimensions at play and they only mention 1, I'm not too sure where I should start. What I know for sure is when I use this thing my chains are duller than when I started.

Luckily, new chains for this thing are only 10$ a pop, so when I have something dangerous to do I just make sure I have a fresh chain mounted, but I'm buying an MS290 soon and I'd like to have good technique down.

Anyone have any tricks that helped them when they started out?

shinnlinger

I was taught to hand file and just eyeball it to match the angle of the tooth.  There is usually a line etched on each tooth at the back to tell you when your chain is all done, and I try to match that.  I like to stick the saw in a vice and do one side and then the other.  You angle the file up slightly as you match the angle.  I usually only do a couple passes and file to keep the saw sharp vs waiting till its dull.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

beenthere

joe
I have tried many techniques and systems, but like this one the best of any.... with bar clamped in a vise.
The depth is controlled by the rollers. This is on a 3/8 chain, and the second pic shows the guide but the teeth are about gone and a smaller file diam. should be used. There is a flat steel that is used to take down the rakers (depth guages) ahead of each cutting tooth.
I put away the jigs (Granberg, Homelite), the rotary stone, and quit taken my chains to someone with a chain sharpening rig (rarely do they set them up just right and usually make just one deep pass).

I buy mine from a Husky dealer and with minor bit of fine tuning, they work on the Stihl chain which is just a small bit thicker strap.


  

  

 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JohnW

Yes joe, I know the feeling but I've become decent at sharpening chain.  The 20% above is not killer if you're not deadly accurate.  If you're continually too low, then I suppose you will develop hooked cutters.  Here's my rules.
-- Get a wood handle for your files.  Skip the guides.  Just look to the mark on the chain for direction.
-- Stop and sharpen your chain when it gets dull, that is, don't beat it up too bad.
-- Sharpen all cutters with the same number of strokes.  Push only.  Say 5 strokes per cutter as a good safe number.  When viewing cutters from the top you will probably see some that are a little ragged, that is not a straight edge.  Such a cutter can usuaaly be filed straight with a few strokes, 3 to 6.  So the best theory is use the number of strokes that will clean up the worst cutter.
-- Don't use dull files.  Clean your file every every couple of cutters.  Grap it with a rag and pull (not push).
-- As for technique.  Try to make a nice smooth stroke.  Try to push the whole length of the file.  You don't have to use killer force, just push side ways force against the cutter as mush as you can without sacraficing smooth.  So what do you call that, gentle side ways pressure?  Anyway you should see filings.  If you're filing, you're sharpening.  Grab the chain with you left hand, file with your right hand.  Hold the chain as close to the cutter as you can.  If you're left handed, then file file left handed.  If you can file with either hand, then that's really great.
-- I just lay my saw on my tail gate, sharpen all the cutters on one side, flip it around and sharpen all the cutters on the other side.  I mark the chain with a yellow wax pencil so I will know when I made a complete circuit.

You will eventually have to file the rakes, but that's a different subject.  This doen't have to be done very often.

If you try this process and find that your chain is still dull when you start cutting.  Hit it again.  Take your saw back there and hit every cutter about 2 strokes.

Good luck.  There's not many things better in this world that a good sharp chain on a good saw, and if you sharpened it, that just adds to the satisfaction.

thecfarm

I've been sharping my chains free hand for years. I can remember having a log in front of me and I kept sawing and filing until I finally got it. I can file mine anywheres now. I always use to put the chainsaw into a vise. I think a vise will help you.Follow the angle mark on the chain tooth. Try to keep both ends of the teeth even,meaning the same amount of metal taking off each tooth. Mine would cut good,but would always angle off to one side. I finally realized that one side I could do a better job on than the other side. I started to take 2 more swipes at the bad side and that did it. Took me quite a few chains to get it right. Keep trying and you wil get it.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Todd

Joe...I can get my chains incredibly sharp and they cut like nobody's business...for about 30 seconds!...LOL..just keep working with it.
Making somthing idiot-proof only leads to the creation of bigger idiots!

NCFarmboy

Quote from: beenthere on June 24, 2012, 11:12:56 PM
joe
I have tried many techniques and systems, but like this one the best of any.... with bar clamped in a vise.
The depth is controlled by the rollers. This is on a 3/8 chain, and the second pic shows the guide but the teeth are about gone and a smaller file diam. should be used. There is a flat steel that is used to take down the rakers (depth guages) ahead of each cutting tooth.
I put away the jigs (Granberg, Homelite), the rotary stone, and quit taken my chains to someone with a chain sharpening rig (rarely do they set them up just right and usually make just one deep pass).

I buy mine from a Husky dealer and with minor bit of fine tuning, they work on the Stihl chain which is just a small bit thicker strap.


  

  

 
This is what I use too.  They are chain specific.  IMO this is the best and easiest file guide on the market.  I have just about all of them except the ATOP which is very pricey.  Would like to try one though.
Shep
Lots & Lots of Saws

doo_hicky

Thought that I was good at freehand until I got the one from Husqvarna.  Night and day difference, no real thought process involved in using this handy little guide.

joejkd

Quote from: beenthere on June 24, 2012, 11:12:56 PM
joe
I have tried many techniques and systems, but like this one the best of any.... with bar clamped in a vise.
The depth is controlled by the rollers. This is on a 3/8 chain, and the second pic shows the guide but the teeth are about gone and a smaller file diam. should be used. There is a flat steel that is used to take down the rakers (depth guages) ahead of each cutting tooth.
I put away the jigs (Granberg, Homelite), the rotary stone, and quit taken my chains to someone with a chain sharpening rig (rarely do they set them up just right and usually make just one deep pass).

I buy mine from a Husky dealer and with minor bit of fine tuning, they work on the Stihl chain which is just a small bit thicker strap.


  

  

 

Looks good. Do they make one that fits a 3/8 low profile so I can try it out on my saw now? I've got a husky dealer a few miles away from where I live I could pick one up at

celliott

I use the same guide Beenthere is using. I used to try freehand filing, could never get it right. Those guides aren't foolproof, but they are very easy and work well.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

joejkd

How do you set the angle on that roller guide anyway?

beenthere

The roller guide snaps (or slides) down on the chain so is at the right angle, and the fine tuning is following the etched line on the top of each cutting tooth.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Al_Smith

Chain filing is an acquired skill that some pick up easily and some never do.

There must be a zillion methods from the use of file guides in a vice to sitting the saw on your lap and free handing. What ever works out best is what to use .

All people will have a tendency to file heavy on one side of the cutters and light on the other side .It's just the way we are made .A method to help counter act that is to file directly over the back of the saw ,a left cutter then a right all the way around the chain .

The advantage to that method is you are looking directly down on the chain and the angles will be more accurate once to learn to file that way which is the method I use .Whatever works though is the method to use .

mad murdock

Quote from: Al_Smith on June 26, 2012, 06:48:51 AM
Chain filing is an acquired skill that some pick up easily and some never do.

.A method to help counter act that is to file directly over the back of the saw ,a left cutter then a right all the way around the chain .

The advantage to that method is you are looking directly down on the chain and the angles will be more accurate once to learn to file that way which is the method I use .Whatever works though is the method to use .
Exact way I taught myself how to do it. Works pretty well.  That Husky guide looks kind of like a easier to use version of Carlton's file-o-plate(which is btw, the guide I learnt on till I got good at freehanding it).
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

CTYank

Back when, I tried free-hand filing, using file-holder with plastic or metal guide to ride atop the cutters. No matter what, just not consistent enough for me, trying to monitor angles and height. Unsat.

Then tried Granberg. Spent an hour or two total figuring out what setup priorities were. Never have looked back. Setting height is so simple: put cutter in place, set angles, drop file into cutter, set ht so it rides at same ht as it did last. Try a few gentle strokes to see where it's cutting for minor adjustments. Good to go- do 'em.

I refuse to become in any way dependent on an guide doohickey that's specific to a particular chain. Too many different chains to "polish" here.

A few months back, I showed a friend how the Granberg guide worked. He bought one. Showed him setup for about 10-15 minutes, then we spent about same time critiquing him as he sharpened the chain on his 250. He's now free from metal bludgeons.

By far the most important aspect of chainsaw maintenance is chain sharpening. IMHO.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

joejkd

Quote from: CTYank on June 26, 2012, 08:50:58 PM
Back when, I tried free-hand filing, using file-holder with plastic or metal guide to ride atop the cutters. No matter what, just not consistent enough for me, trying to monitor angles and height. Unsat.

Then tried Granberg. Spent an hour or two total figuring out what setup priorities were. Never have looked back. Setting height is so simple: put cutter in place, set angles, drop file into cutter, set ht so it rides at same ht as it did last. Try a few gentle strokes to see where it's cutting for minor adjustments. Good to go- do 'em.

I refuse to become in any way dependent on an guide doohickey that's specific to a particular chain. Too many different chains to "polish" here.

A few months back, I showed a friend how the Granberg guide worked. He bought one. Showed him setup for about 10-15 minutes, then we spent about same time critiquing him as he sharpened the chain on his 250. He's now free from metal bludgeons.

By far the most important aspect of chainsaw maintenance is chain sharpening. IMHO.

What do you mean set it where it was last? I'm not sure what height to set it in the first place.

morgoon

Howdy folks

I just found this section and this thread, I guess I should get out of the sawmill section once and a while :)

I am far from an expert, but I can sure relate to the chain sharpening blues.

This winter coming up will be our fifth with a woodstove. We burn about 6 bush cord a year, and most of it I scrounge from our woods. I also find time for some hobby sawing, and I have made connections with a bowl turner to saw up any urban sourced stuff so it will fit on a lathe.

I am also proudly a chainsaw carpenter, preferring my chainsaw to rough my sawn lumber to length when building :)

Just this past winter did I finally....oh thank the big guy in the sky kind of finally... Get the hang of sharpening.

I freehand, from crouched over top of the saw (saw body held between my knees) in the bush, or on the floor for a really dull chain. If I am just tuning up a chain I can hit it from the sides while on a table (tailgate)

I find it easiest to start the file from it's very end (non machined tip) as it has a slightly smaller diameter and makes it easier to start.

I always have upward pressure on the file and tooth at the same time as pushing to keep the file seated against the chain and upper cutting edge. This keeps me from filing to low and missing the underside edge of the tooth.

Biggest thing I learned was don't wait till the chain is dull to sharpen it. Although the frustration of not getting the thing sharp kept me from doing this! But in the end I just wound up spending more time trying to sharpen a super dull chain, then I would have if I had stopped and just tuned it up a bit before it got to be a gas powered butter knife :)

Lastly a good sharp chain will save you time over pushing a dull chain into wood, it will be safer for the operator, and easier on your saw...

I still remember the feelling of finally being able to sharpen my own chains, anywhere anytime... Practice make it easier, and it as a fantastic feeling when it all comes together.

Still no expert by any means, this is what I have learned thus far.
Homemade bandsaw, made by my mentor and dear friend Unto...who turned 85 this year

And I just made my first longbow...awesome

Full Chisel

Might want to look at the type of file you are using. I would want a, "regular cut" file instead of a "fine cut".  If you got them buffed out with a file, and the chain don't cut- better lower the gauges, this frustrates more guys than anything. Some of the better file handles have a guide on them. In that 3/8 LP chain, look for single hump straps and not "green coded"  or safety chain as that can hold you back.
Jed: Jethro, how's come they ain't no ice in Kali Forni-a?

Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

CTYank

Quote from: joejkd on June 26, 2012, 10:00:40 PM
Quote from: CTYank on June 26, 2012, 08:50:58 PM
Back when, I tried free-hand filing, using file-holder with plastic or metal guide to ride atop the cutters. No matter what, just not consistent enough for me, trying to monitor angles and height. Unsat.

Then tried Granberg. Spent an hour or two total figuring out what setup priorities were. Never have looked back. Setting height is so simple: put cutter in place, set angles, drop file into cutter, set ht so it rides at same ht as it did last. Try a few gentle strokes to see where it's cutting for minor adjustments. Good to go- do 'em.

I refuse to become in any way dependent on an guide doohickey that's specific to a particular chain. Too many different chains to "polish" here.

A few months back, I showed a friend how the Granberg guide worked. He bought one. Showed him setup for about 10-15 minutes, then we spent about same time critiquing him as he sharpened the chain on his 250. He's now free from metal bludgeons.

By far the most important aspect of chainsaw maintenance is chain sharpening. IMHO.

What do you mean set it where it was last? I'm not sure what height to set it in the first place.

Seems you want to obfuscate things. Any height such that about 1/5 of the diameter of the file sits above the tooth will give you a good acuity. A guide like the Granberg one will let you do all the cutters with the same height with one setting. You cannot get close to that free-hand.
Starting with the assumption that they're consistent, and in the ballpark, pick any cutter on the side you're set up for, adjust the file height so it looks from above like it's making full contact in the cutter. Push it forward, then move it out of the way and look at the cutter. It should be obvious if you have to go up or down to make full contact. Once there, do 'em all.
Once you get your stuff sorted out, a couple of strokes should do it.
If the chain's been randomized, it'll take more strokes. Not the next time though.
Unguided filing is randomization, IMHO. Counter-productive.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

Oliver1655

Don't give up on the electric grinder.  Use an older chain to learn with.  Once you learn how it goes fast.  When using an electric grinder like the Harbor Freight one you mentioned there can be 4 to 5 settings you need to make:
     1 - Angle of the grinder swing downward. This is fixed at 60 degrees on the less expensive grinders like the Harbor Freight one and you can not change it.
     2 - The angle of the cutter. This is adjusted by loosening the knob on underneath the front of the base & rotating the chain guide to the angle you need then re-tightening the knob. For Stihl semi chisel use 30 degrees & for full chisel  20 degrees.  *** Note *** The index on inexpensive grinders are a reference point.  On my Harbor Freight grinder the 18 degree mark is actually 20 degrees.  Remember you will be sharpening every other cutter (one side of chain) with this setting then you will have to rotate the guide to the opposite side to sharpen the the other side.
     3 - To hold the chain firmly while you grind there will be a way to close/narrow the chain guide to where it will grip the drive cogs.  It may be a cam with a lever in front of the guide or it may be a pull handle you have to squeeze like a bicycle handle. The should slide thru the guide freely when open & be held firmly when closed. Once you set this up you should not have to change it. 
     4 - On the backside of the chain guide is the adjustment for a flip stop which you will rest the back of the cutter you are going to sharpen against to allow you to sharpen each tooth the same amount. To set it, with the grinder off, lower the grinding wheel right in front of the cutter then set the cutter against the side of the wheel to where it lightly touches.  Then adjust the cutter stop to where it rests against the back of the cutter.  To check yourself, pull the chain to where the cutter back is resting against the chain stop & clamp the chain in place, then gently lower the grinder & see if the wheel will pass in front of the cutter barely touching it.  If the wheel comes down on top of the cutter it is too close & the chain stop will have to be backed off.
    5 - Finally the depth of the grind.  There should be an adjustable stop to limit the downward movement of the grinder.  Set it to where the grinding wheel will reach the base of the cutter without grinding into it.

This will give you a starting point. You may have to fine adjust the stop. When grinding/sharpening you should only lightly brush the cutter with the grinding wheel. You want to brush the cutter 3-4 times.  This will allow you to sharpen without over heating/burning the cutter. If you are cutting into the cutter as you lower the grinding wheel you are taking off too much & will likely burn the cutter & loose the temper to where it will not hold an edge.

Instead of sharpening chains while I am cutting/splitting, I have several saws with spare chains so I can focus on cutting/splitting.  When I get home I can sit comfortably at my bench with my grinder, a cold drink & listen to music / audio book & chain sharpening has become a relaxation not a chore.
John

Stihl S-08s (x2), Stihl S10 (x2), Jonsered CS2139T, Husqvarna 338XPT California, Poulan Microvibe XXV, Poulan WoodShark, Poulan Pro 42cc, McCulloch Mini-Mac 6 (x2), Van Ruder Hydraulic Tractor Chainsaw

tyb525

I use a Pferd guide that has a raker file and angle guides built in. So easy....
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

6sunset6

Quote from: Oliver1655 on August 14, 2012, 09:41:09 AM
Don't give up on the electric grinder.  Use an older chain to learn with.  Once you learn how it goes fast.  When using an electric grinder like the Harbor Freight one you mentioned there can be 4 to 5 settings you need to make:
     1 - Angle of the grinder swing downward. This is fixed at 60 degrees on the less expensive grinders like the Harbor Freight one and you can not change it.
     2 - The angle of the cutter. This is adjusted by loosening the knob on underneath the front of the base & rotating the chain guide to the angle you need then re-tightening the knob. For Stihl semi chisel use 30 degrees & for full chisel  20 degrees.  *** Note *** The index on inexpensive grinders are a reference point.  On my Harbor Freight grinder the 18 degree mark is actually 20 degrees.  Remember you will be sharpening every other cutter (one side of chain) with this setting then you will have to rotate the guide to the opposite side to sharpen the the other side.
     3 - To hold the chain firmly while you grind there will be a way to close/narrow the chain guide to where it will grip the drive cogs.  It may be a cam with a lever in front of the guide or it may be a pull handle you have to squeeze like a bicycle handle. The should slide thru the guide freely when open & be held firmly when closed. Once you set this up you should not have to change it. 
     4 - On the backside of the chain guide is the adjustment for a flip stop which you will rest the back of the cutter you are going to sharpen against to allow you to sharpen each tooth the same amount. To set it, with the grinder off, lower the grinding wheel right in front of the cutter then set the cutter against the side of the wheel to where it lightly touches.  Then adjust the cutter stop to where it rests against the back of the cutter.  To check yourself, pull the chain to where the cutter back is resting against the chain stop & clamp the chain in place, then gently lower the grinder & see if the wheel will pass in front of the cutter barely touching it.  If the wheel comes down on top of the cutter it is too close & the chain stop will have to be backed off.
    5 - Finally the depth of the grind.  There should be an adjustable stop to limit the downward movement of the grinder.  Set it to where the grinding wheel will reach the base of the cutter without grinding into it.

This will give you a starting point. You may have to fine adjust the stop. When grinding/sharpening you should only lightly brush the cutter with the grinding wheel. You want to brush the cutter 3-4 times.  This will allow you to sharpen without over heating/burning the cutter. If you are cutting into the cutter as you lower the grinding wheel you are taking off too much & will likely burn the cutter & loose the temper to where it will not hold an edge.

Instead of sharpening chains while I am cutting/splitting, I have several saws with spare chains so I can focus on cutting/splitting.  When I get home I can sit comfortably at my bench with my grinder, a cold drink & listen to music / audio book & chain sharpening has become a relaxation not a chore.

That is an excellent explanation.   I just got a Maxx grinder and spent today making two old chains smaller.   I am getting it figured out. I can add to your note that the wheel should go no lower than the point where the radius of the wheel flattens out , so for a 1/8 wheel no deeper than 1/16   I think.   I am still wrestling with the chain stop when going from left to right.  On the Maxx everything flips over .  The grinder head,  the table , and the chain stop. Plus turning the chain around. I would think the chain stop would be in the same place but I have had to move it.  That means the cutters are not the same size.   But perhaps it is still in my learning curve.  THe grinder head only goes to 55d left and right.  It seems like it wants a little more . Angle marker goes out to 60.  IT can be machined out to get there if it works out I need to.    The other thing I have to do is make a radius gage for the wheel.  Grinder did not come with one, it should. I have not seen them for sale either except at a Toolmaker supply house.   I think if I have trouble with dressing and maintaining the radius I will get a CBN wheel.  Word is they last for ever.  I also have to figure out a way to clean the chains before grinding. I am thinking about a wide mouth gallon jug of kerosene .   WD40 spray after or maybe rust preventor. 

Left Coast Chris

Just to add one more important thing.....SAFETY:    wear gloves when freehand filing.   If and when you slip or fumble while pushing your file you are less likely to dice your finger or hand open.   Once learned it will stick with you but trial and error on this subject is painful.   I still wear gloves today (after some stiches). :) :) :o
Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

thecfarm

Left Coast Ghris,how right you are. Seems like my right hand,middle finger takes a beating. Regular lether palm gloves,the ones with cloth up by the fingers don't work either. I wear all leather gloves now when filing. I only seem to slip once every 5th sharpening.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

lumberjack48

If a guy wasn't cut him self filing, hes not filing, i learned the hard way many yrs ago.
You know just when its going to happen, then its to late  :o  >:(

If i wanted to get chain oil free, I'd use this ethanol gas, dry quick to.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

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