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What is "select cutting"?

Started by Piston, August 01, 2014, 09:08:15 PM

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Piston

I used to hear of the term "select cutting" as a good thing, as in, if a logger were to "select cut" your property, it leaves it better off.  In contrast, I always heard that "clear cutting" is a bad thing, that it "ruins" the forest. 

I've read a bit in the past about people referring to "select cutting" as a bad thing, which can make sense considering that you may only be taking the "good" trees and leaving the bad.  Eventually, all that will be left is bad trees.

So what exactly IS "select cutting"?  And, is it good/bad?  I suppose like anything, it probably just "depends"? 

I'd like to improve my property for wildlife, thin the woods by taking and using firewood, and if possible, leave the woods in better shape and encourage the "crop trees" to grow better, quicker, and healthier. 

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

bill m

"Select cutting" can be a vague term and can mean different things to different people. One thing for certain is that not everything is getting cut ( as in a clear cut ). It could also be a shelterwood cut, seed tree cut, or salvage cut. In a select cut it could be a high grade cut (bad), diameter limit cut (bad), commercial thin (good) or non-commercial thin (also good ). The decision on what to cut in a "select cut" should be made by or under the guidance of someone who knows how to grow trees ( like a collage educated forester ). Sometimes taking out to many of the lower grade trees can lead to epicormic branching on the good trees you are trying to grow. This will lower the value of the logs in a future harvest. 
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ga jones

College educated doesn't make u a good forest steward. Reputation past practice and results do.
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Maine logger88

Quote from: ga jones on August 01, 2014, 10:35:15 PM
College educated doesn't make u a good forest steward. Reputation past practice and results do.
X2
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Southside

Quote from: ga jones on August 01, 2014, 10:35:15 PM
College educated doesn't make u a good forest steward. Reputation past practice and results do.

X 2 ga jones, that stuck with me as well.  I have seen quite a few "college educated" folks who don't know a thing, all they could do was recite what they memorized from books.  I'll take the 60 year old guy with a high school diploma who has been doing the job for 40+ years over the 25 year old PHD any day, the former has been paying for his meals with his results for a long time while the latter has yet to begin making his loan payments.

Now that the rant is out of the way, to answer the OP's question, a select cut can mean anything you want it to.  Depends on the goals of the landowner.  Basically you determine your goal, make a plan on what to harvest - ie - species, size, etc and at times mark the trees to be harvested or work with the logger to keep the track on plan.  It depends on what you have for trees there now, the condition and age they are in, your financial needs, etc.

The lot I am on now has not been cut on for anywhere from 50 to 150 years, its a really nice piece.  I am creating a grazing savanah or silvopasture on it.  Almost none of the oak and hickory is being cut unless it is unhealthy - you should see some of the red oak that is being left behind.  30" DBH and not a limb for 30'.  I measured one at 48" DBH the other day with a massive crown.  Leaving a younger stand of mixed species as well so the tract is not single age. 

I looked at a lot earlier in the summer just down the road a piece that is not quite as old but still nice mixed wood.  The college educated, professional forester who advised the owner told them it was all mature and their best bet would be to clear cut the entire lot and re-plant it to pine as it was "time".  I told the owner right now pine logs are selling for an average of $200 / MBF delivered to the mill and $20 for pulp, where mixed hardwood brings $300 and $35 respectively, poplar can go up to $675, oak to $1050, looking ahead I don't think its best to have your entire wood lot growing in a single species for both forest health or financial security, but then again I don't have a college degree of any type. 
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Piston

Bill and Southside Logger, thanks for the relevant posts. 

So as far as a select cut, it can be either good or bad, depending on who is doing the cutting and what they are leaving, for what reason.  What is the difference between a precommercial thinning, and a non precommercial thinning? Is it just the fact that you don't plan to market the timber later on?

I think what I am going to want to do, is a non commercial thinning (based on my assumption).  I basically want to thin out the woods to collect firewood and also make the land better for firewood and recreation. 

I believe I'd end up doing some selective cutting, and also some small clear cuts of less than a couple acres.  I really don't know.  I am going to be meeting with a forester in a couple weeks and wanted to clear up my uncertainty of what a select cut even is. 

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

CCC4

 

Select cut is so vague, it might just be easiest to think of it as you cut what they select. Select cuts vary from species to species. I am on a FS block right now with 5 units of timber to cut. The first one was typical pine thinning, I was cutting marked timber and forked pine, codominates, and a 40% cut on ripe seed trees were targeted. The 2nd unit...which I am cutting now is a wild set mixed of pine and hardwood. Sweet gum is targeted heavy like 90%, 85% mature Red oaks, 80% of the Ash (all stages), 85% of the pine (all stages). So just in those 2 examples there are HUGE differences.

I must include though the marking of Unit #2 is some of the poorest planning I have ever been involved with. Poor marking and absolutely erratic marking. I have skid roads over 50 ft. wide now and there are openings up to a 1/2 acre just here and there. Then parts weren's marked at all, then all of a sudden every fricken pine is marked. My project manager and I went through the unit the other day and he couldn't believe it. He told me to be darn sure to leave high enough stumps to show paint...he says somebodies gonna be in trouble over this cut. I am obligated to cut ALL marked timber, so I am safe....but the marking crew is gonna be getting a big talking to by the higher administration.

thenorthman

Select cut, in the basic sense is just taking a "few" trees.  The upsides are you get better forest for your piece of land, whatever reasons you may have, be it wildlife, "parking it out", or making a healthier forest. 

The down side of "select" cutting is often called high grading, the loggers go in with little or no direction, and only take the best timber, leaving the junk, and worthless stuff behind, some folks want this.  Usually whats left is a pile of broken up snags, half dead twigs, and other low market timber, pine, cottonwood etc.

Clear cutting well, go in level everthing, and remove anything worth the effort to move it.  Unfortunately clear cutting has gotten a bad name, mostly from the bunny huggers... while if done improperly you can get massive erosion, and if not replanted and managed you get a bunch of scruby trees and dense brush.

The upside to a managed clear cut, is a restart, clear cuts mimic fire, and let us lowly humans pic what kind of forest we would like to see there.  Out east it seems planting to pine is the way to go, here in the PNW its Doug Fir, or Hemlock.  Also please note, that for a good thick stand of Doug Fir you pretty much have to scalp it, the seedlings don't much like shade, hemlocks on the other hand like shade, but they also like to grow real thick and lean on each other until big enough to stand on their own, hence a precommercial thin, or a commercial thin, followed generally by a clear cut and a replant to Fir, or even back to more hemlock.  Any way, the point of this diatribe is that clear cuts are often times a good thing, even if misunderstood. 


The thing to take away from this is of some logger comes in and says he wants to "make a selective cut" on your dirt, keep a tight leash on him, make sure to go through and mark everything, and have a plan and stick to the plan (maybe even call a forester)
well that didn't work

Ianab

QuoteWhat is the difference between a precommercial thinning, and a non precommercial thinning?

It's about what happens to the trees that you do cut while thinning. An early thinning may just be left to rot as the trees are too small to market. That's how pine is usually managed here. Pulp or post logs are not worth the cost and hassle of extracting them.

Now under other regimes you may thin and commercially harvest part of the crop, before the trees are mature. You don't get full value for the smaller logs, but you get something, and create space for the rest of the trees to mature.

In a mixed age forest it's not usually called that. You might have a "selective harvest" which thins the stands and smaller logs do get sold. Or if they aren't sold, you call it Timber Stand Improvement. (TSI)

Selective Cutting really just means that only some of the trees are cut, and some are left. Whether this is a good thing, or a bad thing, depends on who is doing the selecting.

Like the others suggest, there may also be valid reasons for doing clear cuts, of various sizes. Some species don't regrow without full sunshine, or a forest is just such a mess of low grade junk that you are best to level it and start again.

Ian
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GlennCz

These are strange questions considering the OP's 1600 posts and the extensive woodlot/harvesting experience found in those posts. 

terry f

    Piston, I think what you are doing is what I'm trying to do. I'd call it more of a timber stand improvement, select cut seems to be more of a logging term.

Texas Ranger

A select cut is one where timber is marked to improve the stand, as well as to generate income.  It is a management process, like any other.

One thing is to ALWAYS have a marked selective cut, by a professional, not to be left to the tender mercies of a logger.  There are other methods of improving a stand, depending on species, stand composition, and end goals.

Important to have an end goal in mind, a slip up now can greatly reduce future income.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

treeslayer2003

not all loggers are greedy brutes with chainsaws.............some loggers harvest with future harvests in mind.
to that end there is nothing wrong with a diameter cut, if its done right. also every stand is different.

i agree with the guys leaning toward expieriance, better to have seen what works and what dosent.

Texas Ranger

50 years of experience tells me most loggers will high grade if given the opportunity.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

luvmexfood

It might be safe to assume that select cutting means different things to different people and in different regions.

For some people it might mean they select a tree and then cut it. Others might be cutting to improve the overall quality of the stand.

Sort of like when you buy garden chemicals. You will find some ready to use which is self explanatory. Then you will see some marked concentrate. Take a quart of one company and say for example it makes 20 gallons. A quart from another manufacture may only make 15 gallons but is a dollar cheaper.
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Southside

Quote from: Texas Ranger on August 02, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
50 years of experience tells me most loggers will high grade if given the opportunity.

Maybe you need to broaden the group of loggers you work with.  Loggers are just like any other group of people, some are good, and some are bad, and just like everybody else they often associate with like minded folks.  I know of foresters who have a personal agenda that guide their management practices, and I know of other loggers who leave a job so that it does not appear any logging has been done on the lot. 
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CuddleBugFirewood

In my experience, many (not all) landowners want to do what is long term forestry correct only as long as they don't have to put much or any money into it.  I certainly think both parties are at fault.  Economics will hopefully make long term management of the oak/hickory forest more appealing. 

Invasive specie control and Tsi are good examples.  As a logger I cannot do this for you.  You hired me to cut merchantable timber.  I can't make money for the landowner, much less myself cutting un merchantable  timber in a Tsi or invasive specie control application.  As a landowner, an investment will need to be made Which means dollars out of pocket. 

Piston

Quote from: Ianab on August 02, 2014, 12:11:02 AM
Like the others suggest, there may also be valid reasons for doing clear cuts, of various sizes. Some species don't regrow without full sunshine, or a forest is just such a mess of low grade junk that you are best to level it and start again.

Ian

This is sort of what I'm worried about.  I know the land was logged back in the '70's, and the loggers came in and supposedly took everything and made such a mess, all while leaving my grandfather without ever giving him a dime for his logs.  It has never been managed since, so I'm concerned that it's been so long, that thinning may not really help all that much, and that the forester may recommend clear cutting a good portion of it to start over, which I really don't want to do.  However, my main focus isn't to make money off the logs, so I suppose I don't have to do that if it's what's recommended, but regardless, I'd like it to be as healthy as possible. 

I really enjoy "hobby logging" that I do, and using my equipment to do it, even though I make no money off it.  The thing I don't want to do is just start cutting whatever darned tree I come across, and do more damage than good. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston

Quote from: GlennCz on August 02, 2014, 05:34:41 AM
These are strange questions considering the OP's 1600 posts and the extensive woodlot/harvesting experience found in those posts.

Can you explain?  Why are these strange questions?  Do you just ASSUME that because I have a fair amount of posts, and I've cut and milled my trees/logs before, I have all the knowledge I need/want regarding different forestry practices?

Post count doesn't indicate anything, neither does the ability to use a chainsaw.  I am reaching out to gain more knowledge on something I know a "little" bit about.  I've learned a LOT over the years, and that "lot" has become just enough to know that there is a REALLY lot that I don't know.  A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Ianab

QuoteIt has never been managed since, so I'm concerned that it's been so long, that thinning may not really help all that much, and that the forester may recommend clear cutting a good portion of it to start over, which I really don't want to do.

Doing nothing can be classed as a valid management technique   ;) A forest still grows, it just may not be the exact forest you want, but it will be a forest. Management comes in when people have different wants. Increased profit, aesthetics, wildlife, conservation etc. How they manage things will be different depending on those wants.

Now if you get a professional forester to look over your forest and give you some advice, this doesn't mean you HAVE to follow it, and the advice will be different depending on what your aim is. He can explain the effects of doing different things. Thinning or doing a selective cut, vs clear cutting small areas at a time have a different long term effect on the forest. May or may not be the effect you want. Selective cuts, you get regeneration of species A, B and C. Do a small clear cut, and species X,Y and Z are going to come back.

Now even as a amateur you can still look at your forest and consider the condition of the trees. Are they species you want, healthy and growing with a good form to yield good saw logs? If so, then you don't have a serious problem. But what's the best way to manage them into the future? Should you be doing selective harvesting of junk, overcrowded or mature trees? And getting a shade tolerant regeneration starting to happen?

Or should you be planning small "clear cuts", of just a couple of acres at a time, to allow the regeneration of full sunlight species? Locally that's known as a copse cut, where you go in and just clear cut a small area, maybe only 10% of the total.  The 'forest" still looks like a forest because 90% of the trees are left. The wildlife and seed trees are still there etc, so it quickly regenerates. Come back in 5 or 10 years and cut a different section. By the time you get though the whole forest, the first section is ready to harvest again.

Depends on what sort of forest you have, and what you want in the future.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

thecfarm

I really did know what select meant either. I had an idea,but nothing I wanted to say"I know what that is"
Piston is trying to do the same as I and many others on here are doing. Just taking care of our forest the best we know how, Be it right or wrong.  ;D But we sure are having a good time doing it too.  :)
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Southside

Just curious, how big of a lot are we talking about?  Mother nature has a great way of using time to heal wounds, just look at Chernobyl these days, the city looks more like a forest than a city.  I would think that growing for almost 40 years even if the land was a complete mess would be in decent shape as I would guess it would have at least second generation varieties growing on it by now. 
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Piston

It's a 50 acre lot, so certainly not a huge amount of land like many of you are used to, but a big enough area for me to feel a little overwhelmed  ;D

It's not a "mess" at all. I probably make it sound worse than it is. There is a small area of nothing but white pine, surrounded by old stone walls, and the rest is mixed hardwoods.

The land is on the north side of a small mountain with gently sloping areas giving way to a few steeper sections (nothing I can't drive my tractor up, but I wouldn't go across some of them) and finally towards the bottom it levels off and gives way to a wetland area (although not technically wetland).
Then there is a small ridge of gravel type soil, and on the other side of the ridge is a stream which is my border. In the lowland area there is a lot of evergreens (I don't actually remember what type of trees) but this is where I see a lot of deer and moose sign.

I've held off doing anything major to the property aside from a small clearing I made so far. As much as I just want to go in there and cut trees down and pull them out with my tractor, I haven't because I know I can do a lot more damage than good in a quick amount of time. Also, I know that not much will change in a 1 or 2 year time frame if I do absolutely nothing to the land.

I actually started a similar thread on having a forester come to my land quite a few years back. He did come and help me out, but I didn't really know what questions to ask, and also where to go from there. He was a county forester who was helpful, but again, I didn't really know what I wanted out of my land so it was difficult for him to guide me in the right direction  :D

At least now I know what I want for the long term goal if my property.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

Piston:
What I think you may want to consider was mentioned before TSI. Timber stand improvement.
You review what you got and make selective cuts based on improving the timber stand.
You could take out dead, for firewood, diseased could be firewood depending on type. Deformed, for making a better looking and growing forest. And maybe even dominate, a large over shadowing tree that is crowding out younger smaller trees.
This is known as the "four Ds" Dead, deseased, deformed and dominate.

But every lot is different and all things need to be considered.

Jim Rogers
PS. I'd be happy to walk your lot with you anytime you're home.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Southside

Sounds like a nice piece of ground, and 50 AC is nothing to sneeze at.  I have cut on 2 AC camp lots for people in the past and just got a call for a 15 AC lot last week.  The stone walls say it was farm land at one time, may be something to keep in mind while you come up with the plan if you want any open areas on the lot.  What do you hope to do with the land?
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Piston

Hey Jim,
I'd be interested in a walk in the woods sometime!  I'd also like you to check out the old barn up there anyways and see if it's worth restoring (as if I have time for that too!)  ;D


Quote from: Southside logger on August 02, 2014, 10:59:08 PM
Sounds like a nice piece of ground, and 50 AC is nothing to sneeze at.  I have cut on 2 AC camp lots for people in the past and just got a call for a 15 AC lot last week.  The stone walls say it was farm land at one time, may be something to keep in mind while you come up with the plan if you want any open areas on the lot.  What do you hope to do with the land?
Definitely old farmland.  I read a book called "reading the forested landscape" by Tom Wessels (I could be slightly off with the name) and learned quite a bit from that book.  It talks a lot about how to determine the history of the land based on the landscape. 

There are a lot of stone walls.  There is one section we've always referred to as the "Bridle path" which is a path between two stone walls that goes from an old stone foundation (that used to be a barn which burned down in the early 1900's) back to a former pasture area.   I'd like to clear out that old pasture area and make it open field again.  I'd really like to improve the land for wildlife just to enjoy it with my family.  I hope to teach my kids all sorts of "woodsy" type things on the land as my two boys grow up.  I have always been an outdoorsman my whole life, never was one to watch t.v. but would rather be out in the woods.  I hope to teach them a lot of the same things I learned on the land.  So I really just want the land to be as nice, and diverse as possible.  I'd like some trails around the property to access different areas to harvest firewood, and sawlogs for my mill when I'm in need of lumber, I'd like to see more deer, moose, bear, and other wildlife.  I'd eventually like to build a cabin up there and have it as a little getaway.

So My plan to tell the forester, is really a mix of uses and goals, but priority being improve wildlife habitat, improve overall health of the forest, and manage the timber in such a way that I can continue to enjoy my "hobby logging" interests.  I do want some small fields for the deer and also the scenic aspect of it as well. 


-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

GlennCz

Quote from: Piston on August 02, 2014, 03:00:42 PM
Can you explain?  Why are these strange questions?  Do you just ASSUME that because I have a fair amount of posts, and I've cut and milled my trees/logs before, I have all the knowledge I need/want regarding different forestry practices?
You obviously have good intentions and respect the responsibility of managing your property.  You've made 1600 posts and have done extensive work on your property.  It is strange, you ask about selective cutting like you are on post #1 or 2. 
Selective cutting means you select a tree and cut it down! <g>.  Hah.  It means different things to different people.  It could mean selecting every tree in the forest where the timber value is greater than the cost to cut it down, or it could mean selecting trees to harvest with the concept of obtaining long term financial gain and beauty of the forest. 

It is not easy.  In 1997 I left many black cherry trees with the thought of allowing them to grow to a greater financial value.  Compared to 1997 prices, the price sheets show a price drop of 30-50% for the top grade logs. 
I have nice looking apparently healthy trees that we cut down and they have a big hole in the bottom log or are starting to rot.  It's been a learning experience for me but often times I am not sure what I've learned. 

I think improving the forest for wildlife is spinning your wheels, unless you are planting something to eat.  It's a feel good term and concept. 




bill m

Let me clarify something. I never said or even implied that being a collage educated forester made you a good steward of the forest. What it means is that he ( or she ) will know soils, tree biology and whatever else it takes to grow good timber if that is your goal. There are far more good foresters with a collage education then there are who have learned just by going out and throwing paint on some trees even if they have been doing it for the past 30+ years.
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Peter Drouin

If it was my land I would first cut my road from one end to the other end. Go with the lay of the land. You might find the old road that's there. Make it wide , like 16 to 20 '.
Now you can see what you have. Start with cutting out the junk along the road, the easy stuff. Have a landing or two to cut up the wood. Be saw logs or firewood. Take your time and remember God made the land and trees and it will do just find without your help, :D :D
Good luck.
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treeslayer2003

piston, a book that makes sense to me is a primer to forestry by Gifford Pinchot..........i may have the spelling wrong. it talks about stair stepping the age and variety of timber. it may not be popular with todays commercial forestry approach, but it always seemed right to me.

if your lot was cut 40 years ago, i doubt you have any big problems. any leave trees from back then my be ready however.....depends on how it was cut. you are much farther north than i so probobly different types of timber but a few pics of what you think should go may get you some more input here.
i would take Jim up on his offer as well........two heads are always better than one. at least he could give you some ideas.

barbender

It all depends on your end goals- if it is primarily wildlife habitat you will likely want a lot of small "clearcuts" or wildlife openings. I would agree that a college educated forester should have extensive knowledge of soil types and what trees are going to do best on yours. Talk to your state natural resources department, they may have a forester available or they can give you references for a good one. I am a logger, I would agree with someone else's comment that loggers will tend to highgrade if you give them free reign. They are there to make money, if they're not they won't be in business for long. I you have a contract that says we are going to take such and such trees only, and make it worth their while, you will have a better outcome.
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

Here is an old topic I posted over a year ago about "select cutting." That one is called  Logger Select

When you or anyone else is "selecting" trees to cut, it's not so much the ability to see which trees to be cut, it's the ability to see what will be left of your woods that is important.  Unfortunately training and experience does not always give a person the ability to see what will be left after logging is done.

And that's where a logger has some advantage when they care about their work. A good logger is able to see as he goes what he is leaving behind and make corrections on the fly. The stand used as an example in the MN DNR training session did not achieve the stated objectives as originally planned so they revised the contract and let the logger do the selecting on the fly and it worked.

But I will not tell you there's not some friction between loggers and foresters over logger select.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Holmes

 I like Peter Drouin's idea.  I am up to the 12 foot width on the old cart path but only for a few thousand feet , still a way to go. Being able to walk on the trail is quite enjoyable. I think your question is an excellent one. Now about the logging winch, I missed out on it too. :'( 
Think like a farmer.

mesquite buckeye

An old forester once told me, "The best way to plant a forest is with an axe."

Good advice. This reiterates the point about what you leave being the future. When you start to see the intolerant trees disappearing from a stand, it is time for a clearcut. That does not have to mean clearcut everything everywhere. A clearcut can be as small as an acre, or as big as you want. There are also problems associated with making a clearcut too small.

Any forester that tells me the solution to my forest's problems is to clearcut all of it and plant a monoculture is a forester I say bye bye to. :snowball:

Just sayin'. ;D

You are young enough to watch a forest grow and learn from it. Bring your kids along on the adventure and they will learn too.

You will see things that work and things that don't if you pay attention...... 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: Gary_C on August 03, 2014, 12:48:33 PM
Here is an old topic I posted over a year ago about "select cutting." That one is called  Logger Select

When you or anyone else is "selecting" trees to cut, it's not so much the ability to see which trees to be cut, it's the ability to see what will be left of your woods that is important.  Unfortunately training and experience does not always give a person the ability to see what will be left after logging is done.

And that's where a logger has some advantage when they care about their work. A good logger is able to see as he goes what he is leaving behind and make corrections on the fly. The stand used as an example in the MN DNR training session did not achieve the stated objectives as originally planned so they revised the contract and let the logger do the selecting on the fly and it worked.

But I will not tell you there's not some friction between loggers and foresters over logger select.
good post...........now that my son is in the woods, i understand my father's frustration at me when i started. seems like it takes a while to realize what your doing to the young trees as you work. it can't just be about the money or how fast you can get a load out. also helps when you go back every 10-15 years to see what youve done and how it worked.

beenthere

QuoteBring you kids along on the adventure and they will learn too.

But be careful with that.. :D .  Spent a Sat. with my boys when they were around 4 or 5, planting pine tree seedlings, like about 300 of them.

Following fall, met the boys coming out of the woods with their little red wagon piled high with pine tree seedlings. Very proud of their "logging" they were, and they were "selective".
Just a bit shy of years for them to grow up, so am guessing they were not going to wait.  ;D 
They were just following what Dad was doing.. sort of.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Piston

Thanks to all for the additional replies. I currently have a "small" road cut in, but my first mistake was not making it straight enough to skid logs out, I've learned already :)

I appreciate the extra thoughts and advice on select cutting vs clear cutting. I'll try to "envision" what the forest will look like after I thin out certain trees prior to choosing which to cut. It seems like I'm pretty safe taking out any trees with a lot of crook, forks, or any other defect that would prevent it from growing nicely.

As far as wildlife, I understand that a few small clearings while leaving nut producing trees would be a good idea.

I'm going to be meeting the forester on my property on the 19th of this month and am really looking forward to it. I'll revisit this thread and read it over again to jog my memory before he comes.

Also, if anyone has any other specific things I should ask the forester then feel free to mention it to me.

I'll post some pictures of what I'm dealing with in the next post.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

BaldBob

It sounds like you are on the right track. One point though; just saying you want to improve the tract for wildlife, without specifying which suite of wildlife, isn't very helpful to the forester in providing you with the best advice to meet your objectives. What are the best conditions for deer, and grouse may not be best for turkeys, or bear or song birds, etc. You may in fact not want what is best for any particular suite of wildlife, but rather an optimization of conditions for a broad array of wildlife species. Also with only 50 acres it is probably not realistic to try to have all things for many species for all times of the year. It may be that some key habitat elements for species of interest to you are in short supply in your general area, and that you can manage to provide those particular attributes. The clearer you are in specifically defining your goals to your forester, the better job he can do in providing you with sound advice toward reaching your goals.

Ron Scott

There are two basic silvicultural systems used for management and regeneration of forest stands, "even-aged and uneven-aged" (also called all-aged). Under the "even-aged system", a stand consist of overstory trees of the same, or nearly the same age. The "uneven-aged' system, by contrast, is applied in stands that contain trees of three or more different age classes. The choice depends on the ecology of the stand, its current structure, and the forest owner's objectives.

Clearcutting is the most common even-aged regeneration method; it is most often used to manage sun-loving, shade intolerant species, although under the right circumstance it will successfully regenerate almost any type of forest community.

The uneven-aged system uses the selection method of harvesting, which favors tree species that thrive in moderate to moderately-heavy shade. It is the most complex system often used for managing quality hardwoods and is best implemented by a professional forester.
~Ron

Piston

Here are some photos of my property.  I'll try to post them in some sort of organized manner, going from front (from the road which is to the west) to the back (to the east which is bordered by a stream) there is nothing but woods towards the back of the property for a few miles.

I have so many pictures that it's hard for me to choose which to post. I'll post 10 or 15 of them.



 
This is the old foundation from the barn that burned down.  If you look just to the left of the photo (not visible on the pic) is where the old "bridle path" starts. This is the path the cows would follow to go out to pasture.



 

Here is the bridle path (I really don't know why we call it that  :D). You can tell that the land slopes from right to left. I'd like to clear the trees along the right stone wall, but I'm concerned that clearing those trees and regrading the path level would possibly cause instability to the stone wall on the right?



 
Here is part of the logging trail I made, looking down towards the bridle path, it iss (sort of) a continuation of the bridle path but doesn't actually join up with it.



 
Further down the road, but as if I was backing up with the tractor.



 


  

 
Aside from the logging trail, these two pictures above are very typical of what this section of the property looks like. I'm told this used to be blueberry fields, and there are a lot of remaining blueberry bushes in scattered area that still get some sun.  This area is mostly white pine and encompasses around 4-5 acres.



 
This photo above is the clearing that I made. A couple years ago my wife and I were planning on moving up here permanently, and this is where I was planning on building our home. Two kids later, plans have changed, and we are no longer planning to move.....for now.   ;D


Here are a couple more photos of the cleared area. I estimate it to be around 1 acre.




  

 


This is at the top of the clearing. The stone wall is one of my boundaries.




 
At the bottom of the clearing (which is also towards the end of the bridle path) it gives way to mostly hardwoods.  In the spring and summer, it's difficult to see very far.





Moving to the east, further back into the property, it slopes downhill and goes from mixed hardwoods to mostly evergreens of some sort.


  

  

 

I believe these are blueberry bushes (the pic was taken in the beginning of winter) but perhaps one of you could confirm that?
 

  

  

 

Getting closer to the back of the property, it levels out somewhat, and gives way to a slightly more "wet" area. There are a lot of tall but narrow trees in this wet area, they are very closely spaced.


 

Then there is a small brook, after the brook it rises up to a ridge line (or at least that's what I call it). I think this "ridge line" used to be a logging trail from a few decades ago. I cleared it out some and widened it enough for a tractor to squeeze through.


  

  

  

 

On the other side of the ridge, it turns back into a wet area which opens up as actual wetland. There is a larger brook going through the middle of the wetland, which is my property line. I'm not sure if I have a picture of the more open areas. This is one I have where I see a lot of moose sign.


 


Hopefully these pics can convey a little more about my property than I've been able to in words  :D
I should probably know more about my little slice of the forest than I do, but I'm getting there little by little.  ;)

(Let's hope this post works. I've been typing this from my iPad and I'm going to throw it overboard if this doesn't post!)
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston

Here are just a few more photos. This one is right at the end of the bridle path, just downhill from the clearing, but before the hardwoods start. There is a distinct difference in the tree types, almost all pines on the west side of the stone wall, and only 20' away on the east side, are where all the hardwoods start. You can certainly tell this used to be farm land.


 




 
Here is what a few acres looks like back closer to the road. I'm guessing this area was clear cut back when it was logged.



 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

thecfarm

Nice pictures there and nice looking land. A few of your pictures looked like the grown up pasture here. I have cleared off some of it.I leave the oak for the wildlife. All the other trees are used for firewood.
I am no expect on what trees to cut,select to cut is what I should say. But I can say something needs to be done. But you are like me,one guy,one chainsaw and one tractor. With me,I cut it,I bring it out for firewood,if there is some size to it. A project that I will never see done,but I enjoy what I do get done.  ;D It's hard to work on land that is not right out back too. I worked here for years and than I moved here. It felt real odd just to step outside and work on something for an hour.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

treeslayer2003

mostly looks like young forest to me. find out what trees do well and are desireable in your area and favor them. remove the trash for fire wood. thats all i'd do for now. that and any more clearing ya want. i don't think you'll ruin any thing as it looks like its just starting out from once cleared land.

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Southside

Nice looking piece of land for sure.  The bushes look like they could be low bush berries, hard to tell in the winter like that.  From what you have done so far it looks like you have a good handle on what to do, endless possibilities. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

terry f

   Beautiful, you may have said, but how far away do you live from it? Clear cut for me is two four letter words, its the worst looking piece in your photos. Thin, thin, and then thin some more.

Piston

Thanks for the comments guys. I live 120 miles away. I'm up there pretty often really, but most of the time it's visiting family or taking the boat out on Lake Winnipesaukee, so I don't always get much time to play in the woods. 

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

John Mc

Piston -

If you want to learn a bit about forestry and wildlife, contact someone from the Massachusetts Keystone Project (formerly MA Coverts Program).

I went through the VT Coverts program 12 years ago - 3 days of training and full of information. You may or may not want to go through the training yourself, but a good place to start is by contacting a "Keystone Cooperator" in your area
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Piston

Quote from: John Mc on August 05, 2014, 10:37:06 PM
Piston -

If you want to learn a bit about forestry and wildlife, contact someone from the Massachusetts Keystone Project (formerly MA Coverts Program).

I went through the VT Coverts program 12 years ago - 3 days of training and full of information. You may or may not want to go through the training yourself, but a good place to start is by contacting a "Keystone Cooperator" in your area
John,
That looks really interesting.  I've never heard of the Keystone Project before.  I'd be interested in doing the training next year.  What did you do for your "project" after the training?  Or did they have that 12 years ago? 


(Edit: I was just looking at the resources tab, and found I've already read 2 of the 3 books https://masskeystone.net/resources  For as much as I've read, I should know a lot more than I do  :D)
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

John Mc

The Massachusetts program just changed names maybe 8 or 10 years ago.

Each state seems to organize their program a little differently. Vermont and Connecticut were the first (and the guys who set it up worked in cooperation with each other). It has spread from there, and each state has a slightly different twist on it.  If I recall, isn't your land in NH? If so, there is a NH Coverts program - you may want to look in to that, since it might give you some good contacts closer to your land ??  New York also has an excellent program, which they call the "Master Forest Owner's" program (or something like that). You also may want to check out the Webinars the NY Extension forester puts on: you can see recorded versions on the http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/forestconnect/ web site.  I've done a few live, which has the advange of being able to type in questions for the presenter, but some of the recorded versions are very good as well.

continued in next post
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Vermont Coverts is organized a little differently. When I went through we didn't necessarily pick a special project (though I know they are getting back into that a bit more - part of the last day is devoted to mapping out what you are going to do next).  I did organize a couple of workshops: another "Cooperator" and I did a few wildlife demonstration projects in the town forest on a nearby town.  A patch cut in a stand of mature poplar, released & pruned some apple trees and released some white oak, along with a few other things. The guy I was working with was a forester who had gone through the training because he wanted to beef up his wildlife skills to match what more and more landowners were showing an interest in in our area.  We discussed a few ideas, then ran it past the town's forest guy, who was all for it.

For the workshop, we brought people through an discussed what we had done. We showed some "before" photos, and they could see the after. We also walked them through an untouched poplar stand so they could see the difference. It went fairly well, since we had 2 foresters and a wildlife biologist attending. The discussion of goals, and how the projects would have differed if the landowner had different goals was quite interesting (fortunately, we had 3 professionals who could discuss different approaches amiably - I got the sense they enjoyed it as much as the less well informed participants)

I also hosted a "walk in the woods" on my own land, where we spotted more apple trees to release, discovered a bunch of plant species I didn't know I had, and generally discussed options for coordinating managing for wildlife with managing for timber value and recreation. I served chili and cider at the house afterwards.

The last workshop I hosted we had the extension forester from the University of Vermont talk about working with forest professionals (loggers, foresters, etc.) A little bit about setting your own goals, selecting professionals with which to work, and an overview of things you might consider in a contract - terms you want to see, etc . We had an interesting discussion on methods of payment: percent of sale, lump sum, flat hourly rate, and other variations -- and how that might vary with the type of work being done, and what differing types of pay can (intentionally or unintentionally) set up for incentives. We closed up that day with a demonstration of some small scale, low impact equipment: I dropped a couple of trees showing folks some of what I'd recently seen in Game of Logging classes, skidded a couple in with my compact tractor and skidding winch, and a friend brought down a mini tracked vehicle designed for small scale logging (I forget the name, unfortunately) and demonstrated a bit with that.

I enjoyed Vermont Coverts so much, that I ended up on their board, and served as president for a couple of years (this group in Vermont was spun off from the VT Extension Forestry program years ago and is now an independent non-profit). I really like their approach. The focus is on wildlife & habitat, but there is a strong recognition that one of the best things you can do for wildlife is have a healthy, diverse forest. They also recognize that people have varying needs and interests, so it's not about managing JUST for wildlife, it's about coordinating managing for wildlife with other goals such as timber values, non-timber forest products, recreation, erosion control. In some situations these goals are complementary, in others there are trade-offs to be made. The discussion about how to manage these trade-offs with the landowner's goals in mind is always interesting.

Sorry for the long ramble.

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Stephen Alford

 Great project Piston and a very good discussion. Just a couple thoughts for what they are worth. Boundaries and topography are a good place to start. Most of the management and "select process" here is based on stand typing. Each stand on a property is given a reference number and an attribute file developed.  Species in the stand are identified and assigned a percentage.  Estimates on stand height and crown closure are determined. This is generally followed by stand origin or history. Based on  what you have posted some soil analysis could be very beneficial (ie nutrients,ph,drainage etc).  Good luck with your endeavors, do enjoy your posts. Take the time to stop and look around at the end of the day.   :)

 
logon

Piston

John,
Thank you for taking the time to explain the history and your experience with the Vermont Coverts.  I read it with great interest and really enjoyed the stories about your "workshops" that you hosted. 
Your correct that my land is in NH.  I mistakenly went to the MA site that you linked to not realizing that it was only for....well....MA!  :D  (Hey, it was late, I was tired  ;D)  That would explain why when I put my zip code in for my NH land I didn't come up with any hits on local cooperators. 

Stephen,
If I had a view like that from my woodlot, I would not only be taking the time to stop and look around at the end of the day, but would be stopping and looking around ALL day.  That is a very scenic spot there! 

I'm going to bring a copy of the survey with me when I meet the forester.  It lists the different soil types in different areas on the property and is a fairly detailed survey of elevations and of course property lines and features.  Since the stone walls are shown on it, we will have a pretty accurate way of determining exactly where we are on the property, so I can take some notes right on the survey. 

I don't know if it will be helpful to the forester or not, but I'll try taking a screen shot from Google Earth and overlaying it onto the survey as well.  It shouldn't be too difficult to get the scale correct with a little trial and error. 

This thread got me to start reading Tom Wessels book again, "Reading the Forested Landscape".  It's interesting as there is evidence of many types of "disturbances" that he points out in his book.  I see evidence of former pastures, former blowdowns, and former logging.  Every time I go back out into the woods, or look back at the hundreds of photo's I've taken, I notice something else I had never seen before.  I think that's what keeps it interesting. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

DMcCoy

I set up my management plan by making a rough map of my property.  I divided it into smaller areas with the borders defined by property lines, topography, streams, and roads.  I think I have 27 different pieces that vary greatly in size from as little as 1/2 to larger ones of several acres.  I then assigned a number 1-2-3, based on intensity of the work involved, to each area.  I pick a mixture a of high and low each year.  Taken as a whole it would be overwhelming and it is rewarding to get an area "done".

I would want to know what tree species are common in that area.  If it was me that would be my first step, find a good book and study it. 

In my part of western Oregon we have 5 dominate canopy forming species and a smattering of a few lessor know and non-commercial trees that I will save even at the expense of the big 5.  I am surrounded by 1000's of acres of industrial forest land that is stocked 100% with Douglas Fir.  If there ever was an uglier forest to walk in I would like to see it.  We also have a soil disease called laminated root rot that effects Doug fir and these industrial guys plant it back anyway and they are starting to die- this is not intelligent.  The lack of diversity may make short term financial sense but I'm not so positive about the longer term impacts on soil fertility.  Conifers store their nutrients in the main stem, deciduous trees store theirs in the branches <3".  I see long term problems with the mono-crop idea.

The link below is to an article by a Canadian forester that tested nutrients of various parts of both conifer and deciduous trees.  It is the most interesting paper I have read in over 35 yrs.  It deals with regenerating forest soils.  It is well worth the time to read it.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_org_research.php?id=69

Looking at your pictures I understand completely why you would feel overwhelmed.  I would divide and conquer.   Begin with the end in mind- what do you want it to look like in 'x' years.  Do you want income and how often?  How involved do you want to be?  You have choices.

Some things are obvious to me.  Reducing tree numbers in most areas, cutting bent and deformed trees first.  What really stands out though, and this is based on my experience in Oregon where we don't have quite the centuries of farmed land is that your soil looks depleted.  I don't know what is normal growth rates for your area but if this was logged in the 70's that is @ 40 yrs. +/- worth of growth - wow!.  The trees near the rock walls look bigger than in the open field areas and this makes some sense as the rock walls would collect leaves, helping to build soil that wasn't then depleted again by farming. 

Someone mentioned soil testing and I would agree.  I would also look at soil carbon content.  There are ways to substantially improve soil carbon.
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/index.html

Hope this helps you,

enigmaT120

That was a good article on forest soil regeneration.  I don't have money for a chipper so I've been leaving my prunings and slash from pre-commercial thinning on the ground.  I keep it out of my trails but try not to pile it up too much, as I don't want a fire hazard.  No slash burning.  The piles are breaking down like they're supposed to, just not nearly as fast as chips would.  This works in Falls City and Banks, where it's wet much of the time.  It would probably be a fire hazard in much of our state, and chipping would be better there.

Do you also try to avoid soil compaction?  I have a network of skid roads and try not to drive anywhere else, especially if the ground is wet. 
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

terry f

    Wouldn't a chipper nice, I'm in Eastern Oregon, when something hits the ground, it stays there. Fire danger is always on my mind, either too hot or too much snow to work. We only have a couple months in the Fall and Spring where we can burn without worry.

DMcCoy

My little parcel is less than 25 ac. and I live on it. It has a few acres of flatter ground and some extremely steep ground.  It has one class 1 stream and the riparian buffer takes roughly 6 acres.  I'm allowed to cut "house wood" out of it but it is off limits for commercial logging.  It has 5 side streams so water and stream crossing is a big factor in any decisions I make.  My timber management I would call a hobby except it is hard dangerous work.  I have hired logging and logged myself it just depended on the area.  I have cut 3 times the dollar amount I paid for the property and still have 1/2 of the original trees left.  I'm starting to thin replanted areas making firewood as I go.  In a sea of industrial reprod I'm the odd one and l'm Ok with that.

I have a few dirt roads with reasonably good access to all areas.  I have tried to skid logs on snow but find that while the trees skid easier my equipment does too.  I generally winch logs to where I can drag them down the road, the ground is just too steep.  In general I stay off my ground and my roads when the soil is wet.  Wet ground makes everything that much harder, and I guess I have a choice.  I skid with a tractor winch and I have a small cat.

Fire season tends to bring greater focus to that very real primal fear.  What would I do?  We had lightening the other night and a couple of fires started over by Scapoose.  So every year I get to think about fire for a couple of months.  I have come to a couple of conclusions.  The industrial forest land adjacent to my property is a fire hazard.  It is @ 20 yr old reprod, heavily stocked, and the lower branches from the ground up are dead. Full of dead little baby tree branches I think fire would climb rapidly into the crowns.  I am adding to one of my sections a 30' buffer of well spaced hardwood.  In other areas I have limbed my trees to 12'.  I left the branches where they fell, they will eventually rot, and my thinking is that they are no worse a fire hazard on the ground than they are attached to the tree where fire could climb.

You guys on the east side have it bad imho.  Everyone seems to understand that decades of fire suppression have only compounded the problem to the point of catastrophe.  If I was allowed (?) I think I would burn my land every 3-6 years if I could do so safely.  That probably means thinning and burning piles of hand cut brush during the winter, which is a ton of work, probably completely unfeasible for a large land owner.  Maybe that guy who used to sit on the side of buildings in Portland needs some hard work, put his labor where his mouth is... yeah right like he wants to work.

enigmaT120

You can log in a riparian zone, it's just more hassle and you have to leave a lot of trees.  We went through it in the Master Woodland Manager program.  I have a Large Fish bearing stream cutting through my place but I don't have any plans to do much except admire it. 

I hear you on the "sea of industrial reprod" as Weyerhauser surrounds my place on 3 sides.  The Alpacalypse people were on the south side, but they got evicted. 

I like WH for a neighbor.  They leave me alone.

Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Piston

DMcCoy,
Thanks for some great information.  I read through the link about chipping wood.  Luckily, I do have a chipper, so perhaps that will come in very handy.  It mentions in the article some pretty specific terms about chipping wood, as well as the types of wood chipped.  I will keep in mind that the smaller hardwood branches are the best chipper material for my land 'humus' recipe  ;D

I currently have a large pile of brush/trees that I am planning on burning.  I've actually put it off though, thinking that perhaps I should leave that pile as shelter for the wildlife.  I"m sure some critters and birds are finding shelter from the weather in there!  I guess that is another way to go, make brush piles for wildlife rather than chip for soil enhancements.  As you said, my site does seem like it has rather "poor" soil.  I've actually always thought that, I've always said to myself that for as long as the trees have been growing undisturbed, I felt that they should look "healthier".  I'm interested to hear what the forester thinks after walking the property with me. 

Since I have so much thinning to do, I'm starting to wonder if I'd be able to do the logging myself, as in, bring the logs to a mill and get paid for them.  I'm not sure if there are any mills nearby, and I'm not sure if they even buy from "non" loggers, or even if it would be worth it financially. 

As far as hardwoods, I tend to guesstimate that the only value my hardwoods would have is cut and split for firewood.  I've been exploring the option of investing in a quality log splitter and making a bunch of firewood to sell.  Of course then, I run into the problem of delivery and lack of anything to deliver the firewood with  :D  I don't imagine I'd really make much money doing this, but perhaps it could offset the cost of my financial outlay. 

At least if nothing else, I'm pretty confident that I can take out all the bent, deformed, poor quality trees and go from there.  As it is, that will probably take me a lifetime in and of itself!   :D

Thanks for all the ideas and advice so far. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

mesquite buckeye

When you thin your hardwoods, especially, you will get an increase in growth rate of the remaining stand. Mostly the increase is from the gradual increase in canopy size since each tree has more space and more sun. What gets overlooked frequently is that there is also less competition at the bottom of the trees (roots) for water and nutrients. Also, if you let the thinnings rot, you will get a general improvement of soil fertility over time as the nutrients are released, also with increasing humus in the soil the ability to hold cationic soil nutrients (positively charged like ammonium, calcium, potassium, etc.) in the soil will increase and those nutrients will be more available to growing plants

Thinning is good. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Piston

How does burning brush come into play?  As in, nutrient wise, are you burning all the nutrients out of the pile? 

Sounds best to either leave the thinning a or chip them, scattering the wood chips.  I'm just curious if there is a benefit to burning also?

Would it be best to burn the pine thinning's and only chip the hardwoods?
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

treeslayer2003


Ianab

Burning leaves the mineral nutrients in the ash, but the organic material (mulch) is gone in the smoke. This is the part that composts down to form the rich black topsoil you usually want. That's the humus that Mesquite is talking about.

My preference would be to drag out the larger stuff that's useful firewood, and then cut up the tops so they lay on the ground and rot / recycle faster.

Of course fire risk may be a factor. Mulching or burning the slash in a controlled fire may be a better option if you have a fire risk locally.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

thecfarm

I cut anything that I'm going to leave in the woods about 2-3 feet long,I try for more 2 than 3. When the limbs are on the trees I run my saw up and down the limbs,than I start to saw the 2-3 feet. Get the brush on the ground and not up in the air and it will be gone pretty quick. This way if I have to I can drive through the brush,it will break up in a few years. Even something 4-8 inches through gets the same treatment,if I leave it. I use to not bother with some of the bigger stuff,but found that I would have to  move it 2-3 times when it was in the way. Hard to have a good amount of wood on the 3 pt winch and than climb over somthing 4-8 inches across. A chipper is good,but need a good size one and I myself would not want to feed a chipper with limbs from a tree 2 feet across. Seems like the limbs has to be picked up in a certain order too. Hard to pick up a 8 foot long limb that is buried under 3-4 other 8 foot limbs.I can cut the brush up in 2-3 foot pieces and that solves the brush problem. Nothing a matter with brush piles.but I have a hard enough time to get around the wet holes,rough parts and big rocks.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Piston

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on August 08, 2014, 06:29:11 PM
happy birthday piston

Thanks treeslayer.  ;D

Quote from: Ianab on August 08, 2014, 06:32:13 PM
Burning leaves the mineral nutrients in the ash, but the organic material (mulch) is gone in the smoke. This is the part that composts down to form the rich black topsoil you usually want. That's the humus that Mesquite is talking about.

My preference would be to drag out the larger stuff that's useful firewood, and then cut up the tops so they lay on the ground and rot / recycle faster.

Of course fire risk may be a factor. Mulching or burning the slash in a controlled fire may be a better option if you have a fire risk locally.

Ian
Thanks for the explanation, that makes perfect sense that the part of the wood that burns is the part that becomes the "humus". 

Now what about pines???  What the heck do you do with a whole bunch of pines that aren't big enough to use as sawlogs?  I mean, I don't mind burning pine (as firewood), but good lord, I won't burn THAT much pine...


Quote from: thecfarm on August 08, 2014, 07:12:56 PM
I cut anything that I'm going to leave in the woods about 2-3 feet long...
That's a good idea also Ray, probably a lot more "practical" than trying to chip everything that hits the ground as well. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

thecfarm

I've been feeding my OWB a steady diet of almost all white pine for 2 years, and before that alot went through it. I think I am just about done with pine. Now onto fir and cedar. Some of it was kinda soft on the outside,but the inside kept us nice and warm. That was one of the reason I wanted a OWB. I needed a way to get rid of my softwood. I tried to burn it,but it would burn for 5-6 days.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ianab

QuoteNow what about pines???  What the heck do you do with a whole bunch of pines that aren't big enough to use as sawlogs?  I mean, I don't mind burning pine (as firewood), but good lord, I won't burn THAT much pine...

Locally we just thin pine to waste, it rots where it lays, and in a couple of years there's no trace of a small (all sapwood) tree. But we are pretty much rain forest environment. If you want it to rot faster, limb it and chop it into chunks like Cfarm suggests. If it's off the ground it will take much longer to rot down. Laying in the soil it stays damper and the fungus and bugs can get at it quicker.

If you haul out some of the best stuff for small sawlogs, and firewood the next size down, all that's going to be left is the tops, branches and smallest trees, the stuff that rots down the quickest anyway.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: Piston on August 08, 2014, 05:29:13 PM
How does burning brush come into play?  As in, nutrient wise, are you burning all the nutrients out of the pile? 

Sounds best to either leave the thinning a or chip them, scattering the wood chips.  I'm just curious if there is a benefit to burning also?

Would it be best to burn the pine thinning's and only chip the hardwoods?

And happy birthday also. ;D

It is, of course more complicated than all this.

Burning results in the instant release of the mineral nutrients. This can be good or bad depending upon the local ecosystem's ability to  incorporate most of this material. A big squasher rain can wash most of it away.

Also you lose all the fixed nitrogen to the atmosphere when you burn, but at the same time you won't have nitrogen tied up temporarily as the material rots which could reduce available nitrogen for a while. Also, even if you burn the tops, the roots are still going to be there to decay.

Nothing in life is simple. Most of the time we do the best we can.

Material that is a fire hazard and hangs around for a long time can be a problem if you are in a high risk area for fire. That is not the case for eastern North America most of the time. Way different story in the dry or seasonally dry West. Fire is much more important in the West and the vegetation is in general better adapted to it.

So there. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Piston

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on August 08, 2014, 08:40:16 PM

It is, of course more complicated than all this.


Seems like that's always the case  :D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Southside

Depending on the final spacing you are going after you could look at running a bog harrow over your brush / tops to break them up and get them in contact with the soil to decompose more quickly, in this way you get the nutrients returning to the soil and benefit of a cleaner floor with less labor. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

DMcCoy

From that Canadian forester's article I understand the value of chipped hardwood branches, and it makes sense that the fertility of valley floors came from the slopes of forests.  But that's a heck of a lot of chipping!  I do like others have mentioned, get the stuff down low to the ground and let the bugs and mushrooms eat it, same effect just a little slower and that's ok too.  Around my house I don't want a bunch of limbs for fire reasons.  I keep my skid roads clear of fallen branches.
Someone mentioned thinning not only allows selected trees more room for a canopy but it also frees up soil moisture and nutrients that competitors would take and that advice is spot on.  Thinning to me is making a decision about which trees live or die that might be made naturally over time,  and I add to that my own values.  I like the diversity I remember from when I was a kid, the woods were fascinating to me and still are.  I save dogwood, cherry, yew, cascara, and mountain hemlock.  I intentionally plant cedar, alder, hemlock, cascara but mostly Douglas fir.  But this is what is important to me and I don't expect others to follow or agree.  I would encourage you to think about what you want your forest to look like 30-40 years from now and then make moves toward that end.
Clear cutting has become equated with corporate evil.  I have left a few big trees in an area I 'clear cut' and replanted figuring I could pull them out later.  I even left a narrow space to fall them.  This was a mistake.  What happened is the big trees I left "mushroomed" so to speak and the canopy went sideways as it had 100% access to sunlight.  Some 15 years later when I went to fall them the damage they would do the the tops of the shorter trees would be horrible.  I was barely able to get them out a different direction.  Never again. Any big trees I leave now must stay put until the next harvest or I cut them.
For me I now favor small clear cuts.  I have tried to selective harvest inside a stand and find that falling trees without damaging others and winching 32' logs is an inexact process using cable.  I can't do it to my satisfaction so I quit.  How big a cut I make is determined by the trees themselves.  I cut until there are no trees leaning into the clear cut I'm making.  I want enough sunlight for the species of trees I plant to grow well. If I'm against any kind of boundary I want to make sure that anything I leave standing can be fell and removed at a later date without damaging the 'new' trees. 
My property is not manicured, but I have decided on a plan that meets my goals and that really helps.  It really is a process not so much a destination.  Some areas I'm happy with, some still need attention, some I haven't touched yet.  I think you have a nice place there and who doesn't like rock walls?  Well I do anyway, and there is plenty to keep you busy for many years and that's ok.  Best of luck in your adventure.
   


Piston

Quote from: DMcCoy on August 09, 2014, 08:37:16 AM
Best of luck in your adventure.
   

Thanks again for your input!
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

John Mc

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on August 08, 2014, 08:40:16 PM
Material that is a fire hazard and hangs around for a long time can be a problem if you are in a high risk area for fire. That is not the case for eastern North America most of the time. Way different story in the dry or seasonally dry West. Fire is much more important in the West and the vegetation is in general better adapted to it.

Folks often joke around here in Vermont that our forests are made of asbestos. We just don't get the fires that happen out west.  I've seen a couple of cases where someone was burning a field or ditch and it got away from them. The fire would burn up to the dge of the forest, maybe go a couple of feet into it, then die out.

That's not to say that our firefighters don't occasionally get a tough workout by a brush or forest fire, but nothing on the scale of what I hear of out west.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

terry f


Peter Drouin

Quote from: terry f on August 10, 2014, 07:49:21 PM
   Why is that?



We in the NE have too nice of trees to burn :D :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

mesquite buckeye

It also rains occasionally. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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