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1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting

Started by jemmy, August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM

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dgdrls

Jemmy,

what did your 55 degree and sunny test cut reveal?

D

jemmy

It revealed I am more lost than I thought I was. Haha... As for being embarrassed, I have a hard time being embarrassed only when I know better. Right now I am in state of ignorance, and I will need to study how to properly remove, sharpen, reinstall, and swage. And any other aspects that need addressed in the process. I thought I would get away with not messing with it too much at the start and get at least a couple hundred brdft attempted and iron out issues with blade alignment etc, these are the initial flights. I have run maybe 20bdft through it and each time I run it something goes wrong. I just need to cut 12 4"x6"-12"s that are 36" long to lay out the track extensions. I was going to do rough cut beams on two sides so I could finish of the track. So pretty much need to cut 72 bdft. And I really only need like 6-8 beams. Butttt that seems to be more challenging than I originally thought it would be.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Ron Wenrich

Its been awhile since I've put cable on a carriage.  I do remember when my cable started to get long, it was ready to break.  But, it wasn't getting as long as yours.  It would just be losing its tautness. 

There are 2 ways of putting on cable.  Most of the older mills used a single cable.  Other mills used 2 cables, one for the front and one for the back.  The cable drive depends on friction to drive things.  Your cable should have at least 4 or 5 wraps at all times.  I always run my cables over the top of the drum.  That's because the pulley was laying horizontal on the track frame.  Some run vertical, and those would run underneath.

For the single cable system, start at either the front or rear of the carriage.  Probably best to center your carriage between the two pulleys.  If you connect to the back of the carriage, you'll go to the front pulley before you start putting wraps on the cable drum.  Pull things tight as you go along.  Then, you'll run cable to the back pulley and to the front of the carriage.  You'll then use your tighteners to pull the cable tight.  Run your carriage back and forth which will take the slack out of your cable.  Continue to tighten until your cable is taut.  That should take care of your cable. 

You need to find someone who has a mill setup similar to yours.  Get in touch with a local mill or even a local forester.  You just need to ask if they know of any circle mills in the area.  Usually, they'll be more than happy to give you a lead.  Follow up until you find one.  There are usually several in any given area.  You're about 400 miles from me, and that's a bit too far to drive.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

miro

Sounds like my adventure with an under powered circle mill 7 years ago.
In order of priority I found:
1) I HAD to learn how to make each and every tooth SHARP and the same height . Learning what a tooth looks like when sharp and when dull is major importance.
The best way to learn this is to file by hand  with a new file, good lights, and steady strokes. Tooth corners need to be SHARP SHARP SHARP. File only the face of each tooth.
If a tooth is too high, file the face until it is the correct height.
I made up a jig ,using a dial indicator to measure each tooth and made them all within about 0.020 inch - less than 1/32 variation.

I routinely felt the saw blade ( just after shut down) to see if it was warm - never was.

2) I had to get the engine to deliver enough power to keep the blade RPM constant ( 500 in my case) . I fussed with it until a made up a tach that I could see from the sawyer position . Ultimately I made up an electronic tach with an analog meter display  so I only had to glance at it . I found digital meter displays need too much of my attention to read them.

Eventually, the engine governor was found to be "lazy" - that is, it didn't respond well , so initially the feed was "mild" until the engine throttled up - you could tell by the sound it made. Even then, on a 15 inch log, I had to feather the feed to keep the RPM up.

3) The US Forest Service document became my toilet tank reading material - kept at it until I learned to apply to the mill, what I had read ( and thought I understood)

4) I didn't give up and , yes I found an experienced sawyer - and visited him to see how he operated and got him to explain his way of "reading" the teeth and how his mill was working.  He would sharpen after every second or third log - did it in about 6 - 7 minutes.

bandmiller2

Miro, good solid advice. I have found its best to start out with good shanks new bits and a freshly hammered saw  to reduce the variables. Everything solid, plumb and level with no play. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Old Iron nut

Jemmy, If I was you I would get rid of that 2 stroke joke and get a 4 stroke motor with the right governor on it to run your mill. A friend of mine had a similar situation and he got the right governor for his 2 stroke joke and his mill started to run right. His motor was out of a truck and it did not have the right governor on it. Only thing I can see wrong on his setup is that he is standing beside the engine! Those stupid engines make more noise than one can imagine. Screaming demons. If you get one that doesn't leak oil, it is sick! That is what all my GM diesel friends say. Good luck on your venture! Old Iron nut.

Don P

I can understand a small amount of stretch in a new cable, and some more for it finding the shortest running path, but I'd also check to make sure the pulleys at the ends aren't drifting or being pulled out of whatever they are running in. On a Belsaw they used a pipe for an axle across each end of the mill. I bent those with heavy logs or when I got into a bind and have noticed on others the same thing. You're basically running a winch and the snatch blocks at either end need to be firmly anchored. I was also using cheapo eyebolts at each end of the carriage and pulled a couple straight before I welded them closed. Now if I get into a bind the roll pin in the drum axle shears which is the intended weak link. I'm sure yours is set up different but maybe the same idea might apply.

moodnacreek

When I started drilled a hole in the end of the mandrel and jammed a speedometer cable in it that ran to a '55 chevy speedo. If memory serves, 45 mph= 600 rpm. Also had no governor, sawed with a 'string'.  Have seen 3-71s do a good job on a sawmill. Wonder if belts are slipping.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

jemmy

No belts are slipping I am going to play with the pins, gears, and cable again here soon. Talked with the previous owner so I am going to try a few things. TBC I am committed to this thing haha
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

hacknchop

I had trouble with a saw once until an older fella came along and told me to remove every second tooth and I did and it made the difference I think your just underpowered every tooth draws .Check with some of the other guys like Jeff  they will know what I'm talking about.
Often wrong never indoubt

moodnacreek

Quote from: hacknchop on February 09, 2019, 11:59:54 PM
I had trouble with a saw once until an older fella came along and told me to remove every second tooth and I did and it made the difference I think your just underpowered every tooth draws .Check with some of the other guys like Jeff  they will know what I'm talking about.
Worth a try, slow feed in knots or cross grain. Of course you can't just take out teeth or the saw will curl. Have to blunt or have every other tooth short. I have seen old solid tooth saws with every other tooth sawed off, must have been sawing with a fordson.

Ron Wenrich

The problem with using a skip tooth method is that you have half the gullet space for dust.  That means you have to slow your feed down or you'll hang the saw.  Hanging the saw puts a lot of stress around the eye of the saw, and you'll need to get it hammered.  Probably okay for a hobby operation.  But, its just putting a band aid on the problem.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Hanging a saw is an experience. I can almost guarantee if it happens to you, the first words out of your mouth will be "what the he....!"
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

hacknchop

The experience that I had was we had worked on this mill for about a week every day , checked first to make sure everything was level ,made sure the lead was right bought a brand new jockey grinder and stellite teeth ,messed with the governor did'nt help because the saw was underpowered when I would start into a cut I would have to really watch my feed speed because the motor couldn't keep up. Not after remove every second tooth I would cut on average a tandem load a day, the only other thing that made a difference was in big spruce we would try to saw from the butt end which was new to me as before that I never paid attention. I'm just a sawyer not a millright but a fella does learn a few things along the way.
Often wrong never indoubt

hacknchop

The only other thing I want to add is I was a somewhat experienced sawmill operator hired to resurrect this moth balled butchered mill and when I couldn't get it to work I reached out to older more experienced ones and they saved my job and reputation,I didn't know about the forestry forum or it may not have been around then 1998 but it was the same type of experience so reach out to your    closest saw filer and ask that's what I did .
                                                    All the best Terry Ferris 
Often wrong never indoubt

Ianab

Reducing the number of teeth should allow you to cut better, at a reduced speed. 

The problem is that each time a tooth bites in it has to cut though all the wood fibres in it's path. Now whether it bites in 1/32" or 1/16", the load on the saw is similar.  So slowing down the feed doesn't help as much as you might think. 

Now if the saw has less teeth, you can keep up the 1/16" feed rate per cut, which will only be 1/2 the speed of a full comp saw with heaps of power.

Same way a swing blade mill with only 4 - 6 teeth can cut OK, and throw decent chips (not dust). Because each cutter on the blade needs 2-3 HP to keep it working properly,. So 6 cutters on my mill with 13 hp works. 50 teeth on a circle blade, then you want 100+ HP pushing it. Drop it back to only 25  teeth, and 50 hp should drive it, but at 1/2 the feed speed. Each tooth is taking a proper bite, throwing out chips etc.  But you have to watch that feed speed, and not stall the saw.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

sharp edge

Start with cutting 8"-10" white pine logs, then work your way up. The knots are even soft in white pine. 
That board you cut would be hard to do on a good mill.

SE
The stroke of a pen is mighter than the stroke of a sword, but we like pictures.
91' escort powered A-14 belsaw, JD 350-c cat with jamer and dray, 12" powermatic planer

dgdrls

Jemmy

did you figure out what pattern you're saw is?
How many teeth?

D

jemmy

I can get some photos from things Ive cut along with over all photos, I believe the motor has at least 100hp, and I was told that it had plenty of power but I could be wrong, Im fine with switching out motors. But I dont think thats the issue as of right now. Im gonna start with the teeth, blade alignment etc, leveling, etc then try and cut next. I got a decent list going now. And I am in school full time till may but i want to be producing something in 2 weeks or less, and by 3 months have things decently fluid.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Jeff

Circle sawmilling is a science, it is an art, and it is witchcraft.  You need to get the science part straight first.  You will get no where unless you procedurally go through the setup and alignment of the mill, the power and transfer of power to the mill, and the blade and teeth. All of these have to be correct to run a circle sawmill.   Go at it halfassed and try and skip the important stuff and you are destined to fail.  Once we get past the science stage, we can then help you with the art and then the witchcraft stages.  :D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

jemmy

Update:

I have a lot of irons in the fire and this thing has been on the back burner of the rotation, I've compiled easily about 24hrs of work to do before I do any test cuts. Currently I am in school full time, 500 egg laying chickens to tend to, a full time job, and many other projects inherent to a farm, sawmill, business, or being a student. (designing and building 3 buildings and one property development to name a few of the projects I am dealing with) I have exams and homework for the next month and my egg layers will start giving me eggs. I've got welding, cable issues, and overall assembly/building to do. I have been researching, and talking with people when I can. I am going to knock out the projects and eliminate many issues before running. But it is going to take time and things aren't very straight forward. Like I have to run 400 feet of extension chords for a welder and level everything out. Well I have not given up on this project, it is just apart of many other projects. I think I am going to do a cheap band saw mod, but before I do that I am going to mess with this thing. A lot to be done, but I am busy, and hopefully it all works out in a timely fashion. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

jimparamedic


Woodpecker52

You have learned well what the joys of owning a older circle mill is like.  More like restoring an antique tractor painting it and looking at it.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

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