I better get a lot faster.

two saw · February 28, 2006, 02:18:51 PM

Well, I have been sawing away and I believe I am getting better and a little faster with the mill. To make this a profitable venture for me I need to be able to saw at least 25 logs into ties and the side lumber as 1X6 for a local major sawmill, each day. They appearantly have a large market for the 1X6 lumber as fencing boards. I talked with the owner of the mill and he gabbed with me for over an hour about all the things I should know about the business. He was really a great help to in realizing the true aspects of the market and not just the inflated expectations I had for myself. After we ended our conversation I felt a little discouraged but a lot more educated.
It is taking me too long to saw up the logs to make a profit for the month, so I either need to get faster or maybe I purchased the wrong mill for what I am attempting to accomplish. I was hoping to be able to saw 35 - 40 logs per day. But I don't think that is feasible for a one man operation.
My figures lead me to believe 25 logs a day for 4 days a week would net me about $700.00 to $800.00 for the week profit. depending on the logs I get and what all goes wrong during the week. In reality it will probably be less. I hope not. I came into this knowing it would actually be work and I am fine with that. I actually feel better than I have for years using the mill. I don't know how many of you all work or have worked in a production factory but it makes for a fat, lazy, slow death experience. I work 12 hrs. 6:00p.m. to 6:00a.m. for 3 days one week and 4 the next.
I know I should be happy I have a job, because that is what they keep telling me. I do about three hours worth of work in 12 hours and the nights can get pretty long and mindnumbing. Other people tell me I am crazy for wanting to leave that job but I can't stand sitting there like an idiot all night and then sleeping away a good day the next morning. I can't wait to get my place set up so I can saw in bad weather.
What is a reasonable number of tie logs to saw in 8 hours time. What are some of your numbers for a days time? Do you think I am not being realistic about the production expectations?
I am looking at a used scragg mill, two 40" saws and a sharp chain feed. Anyone had experience with this kind of mill. I think it might be better suited for what I am trying to do here. I found one for $9,500.00 but I would need to buy a generator to run it.
Your thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated.
Thanks for reading, two saw.
Hey, I just thought of something, If I get a scragg mill I could still be TWO SAW!

IL Bull · February 28, 2006, 02:26:07 PM

How large are the logs you are sawing? ??? Most mills are rated by the board foot production. :P

two saw · February 28, 2006, 03:57:58 PM

Logs I am getting are from 11 to 15 inches in diameter. 9ft. long. Tie logs.
Mill is rated for 1000 to 3000 bft per day depending on the size you are sawing.

Dan_Shade · February 28, 2006, 04:08:15 PM

what is your mill?

does it have toe rollers/lifters on it?

do you have support equipment?

how do you load your logs? do you have a log deck the same height as the saw frame? or do you need a hydraulic lifter?

my saw is pretty slow, but if I had the right setup, I could saw a lot of 6x9 cross ties out of 11-15" logs.

figure out your material handling, and you will be able to get your production up. there are a lot of people here that can help you with your material handling if you'd like. How much room do you have around your saw? can you unload the logs right on the log deck to saw them up? how long does it take you to get the trucks unloaded? are you sawing at your place, or at a sawmill? having some rollers setup so that you can easily move the ties will help dramatically. I can't imagine moving dozens of green crossties each day by hand.

Ron Wenrich · February 28, 2006, 05:36:17 PM

I wouldn't jump into a scragg mill. They're fine for making pallet stock, but I wouldn't use them for ties, unless it could handle longer lengths.

I am assuming you have a band mill. This is probably a slow go for making ties. I'm running a circle mill. You are not going to recover that much more from your reduced kerf to make up for your extra time.

When I was running a hand circle mill, I would cut about 1500 bf/manday. Our crew was a total of 3, and we used dead rolls and had an edger. If you don't have an edger, get one. It will greatly increase your production.

I find the average tie log has about 50 bf on average. You're looking to cut only 1250 bf/day. That sounds like its doable. But, if you're bulling those ties around, you'll be about 3 inches shorter by the end of the week. :D

For material handling, I have one rule. Gravity is your friend, work with it. Sawdust, slabs, boards, everything falls down. After its down, then you can move it. Dead rolls, conveyors or a variety of other ways will work. You don't want to be lifting things. You want to be sliding or dumping.

two saw · February 28, 2006, 05:59:51 PM

Sorry, I should have described my mill a little better. I have a live infeed deck for loading the logs onto the mill and I can put about 7 tie logs on it at one time. I have a machine coming to unload and load trucks and move other stuff around the sawmill. It has been paid fro for about two weeks and I have not seen hide nor hair of the thing. The dealer assured me it would be delivered shortly. The mill is a circular mill with the horizontial edger so I can cut a good board or cant without an external edger. Have to heave the ties off the mill though and it takes me a few minutes to do that.
It is a D&L full hyd. mill. Log turners , dogs, lift posts, and power feed as well as power set on the head unit.
Thanks again.

sjh · February 28, 2006, 07:02:35 PM

It sounds like you need a unscrambler deck at your off feed. That way you push the tie off the mill and go to the next log.

Ron Wenrich · February 28, 2006, 08:01:45 PM

How about a ramp off of the side of the mill to slide those ties down and then stack. A tie weighs about 250 lbs. With a cant hook and ramps, you should be able to stack them pretty quick.

I think you should be able to get that 25 logs/day you're looking for. You might need a little more practice, but you should be able to do that.

How long does it take to saw a log? For my mill, I know the average log is going to take 3 minutes. That includes loading, turning, sawing, and a little time off during the hour. On longer logs, it takes a little more.

Firgure out where you're losing time.

doublecut · February 28, 2006, 08:59:16 PM

We now have a new timber tote that is over head that will take the lumber from the mill and remove it on a overhead trolley system. We have just delivered one to a fellow in alaska. He is now setting it up and will send some pics as soon as he sends us some. Works really good and is easily stored out of the way over head when one is not using it.
doublecut

Sawyerfortyish · February 28, 2006, 10:10:41 PM

Two saw Ron is right on with his time on sawing. I've watched the clock and I can load,saw,turn saw and finish any reasonably straight log 8-12' in 3 minuets. I load my live deck 18+ logs(depending on size) and empty it with one man helping me in about 1 hour. I have a rubber belt for an offbearer that leads to rollers. My helper just pushes the slabs into another conveyer and stacks the lumber in one pile or stacks the boards to be edged on another deck.
You mill sounds like its pretty close to what I have. You just need to work on how to get the lumber and waste away as fast and easy as possible. How in world are you running this thing by yourself?

Bibbyman · March 01, 2006, 03:22:59 AM

Your first statement "Well, I have been sawing away and I believe I am getting better and a little faster with the mill." says you've already been seeing some improvement. Maybe there is a lot more to gain in just working on your sawing skills and methods.

Way back in the dawn of the Forestry Forum I started a tread about improving sawmill production by just how you approach sawing. A lot of good ideas were generated on this thread.

Here is the link to this post.

Least expensive way to increase sawmill production

I also pooled all the comments and made an entry into the Information Base. Here is the link to that.

How to increase band sawmill production

DanG · March 01, 2006, 07:22:55 AM

Two-Saw, you didn't pick the wrong mill. The one you have can definitely do the job. You just gotta give yourself time to get your legs under yourself. You won't achieve that kind of production right out of the starting gate, but as time goes on you will learn little tricks that will save time.

One thing that is jamming you up is log size. To overcome that, you need to tailor your infeed operation to the size logs you're dealing with. How are you supplying the logs to your infeed deck? How long is that taking? Take a look at the organization of your log yard, too, and study on ways to make it smoother. Mine is a shambles, and that really kills me with small logs because I have to go so far to get them. It's less of a problem with larger logs.

I can see where off-bearing the ties is a challenge. Will the dragback handle them? If so, you just need some strategically placed rollers to channel them to a place your machinery can get to them. If not, the add-on that Lindsay mentioned might be worth a look.

Another thing to look at is on the business side of things. If you commit to tieing up all your time cutting for that one guy, you can't expand into more lucrative markets. Try cutting ties and fence boards for half days and cut some nicer stuff the other half.

Norwiscutter · March 01, 2006, 10:25:39 AM

I think a big factor could be the speed at which you are making your decisions between cuts. I saw your setup on the other thread and am pretty sure that your expectations are well within reason. I got my mill about 6 months ago and have run about 20,000 feet with it so far, but I know that my next 20,000 will be processed twice as fast as the first. Also, you have to consider the time you are wasting handling all the boards yourself. It seams to me that your efforts will merit the hiring of a full time board puller to help you keep the blade in the saw. Find out where the backup is in the flow of materials then specifically address that issue. I think that your mill as you have it set up now is fully capable of out producing your support methodology.

Ron Wenrich · March 01, 2006, 05:56:23 PM

Maybe you could adapt one of those DanG-Deadheader log lifter to lift those pups off of the mill.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=17613.0

A set of tongs on a chain would work pretty to grab the tie.

Percy · March 02, 2006, 08:50:26 AM

Heya Twosaw.
All the above suggestions are great. They all point to the best way to keep production up and that is to keep the saw in the wood(cutting) as much as possible as the buck starts there..heh. When ever Im at work but not sawing, I ask myself,"How can I improve/streamline/eliminate the task Im performing at the time thats keeping my saw out of the wood??" Its a simple premis but it works in spades, after a while, its hard to not think about upping production. Also, I remember thinking " Ill never have a better day, priduction wise, than this. Only to eventually superseed it with experience. I been at it 9 years now and am still tweekin, lookin for idears, building allsorts of neat crap that helps me with my work.

woodhick · March 03, 2006, 08:53:51 PM

Hey two saw welcome to the forum. Your production job sounds just like mine! Where are you located. ??? as for production keep at it it takes a while to streamline the process but it will get better.

Bibbyman · March 03, 2006, 09:35:15 PM

Two Saw, How thick are you making your slabs? That is, how big of an opening face are you trying to make?

If you're making a lot of short 4" wide boards or boards shorter than 8', you may want to think about if they are really worth it.

We don't saw railroad ties but we saw a lot of fencing lumber and some heavy blocking (6x6s and 8x8s mostly) and the smallest marketable board for is a 1x6x8'. I can't remember when the last time (if ever) someone has asked for a 1x4 – we get an occasional request for 2x4s.

We one time bought a bunch of old oak logs from a sawmill that had went out of business. I was going to chunk up the bigger ones on the sawmill so I could run though our firewood processor. Then I noted that there was a lot of good sound wood inside. So I started heavy slabing them and knocking 2x6s out of them. I was amazed how fast the lumber stacked up!

Norwiscutter · March 04, 2006, 12:11:37 AM

I don't mind those thick slabs at all. They burn real nice in the outdoor wood burner. My brother/ board puller always looks at me funny when I tell him to save those slabs with 4 feet of usable wood on em. When I argue with him he puts it in the burn pile anyways and tells me if I want it stickered I should do it myself. :( He's right though, I mean at a certain point things are not worth your time. I know some people here do exceptional things with small cut offs and such, but I just can't afford to be dealing with the small stuff when I am cutting #2 pine and have an order to fill.

Sawyerfortyish · March 04, 2006, 06:55:23 AM

If I can't get at least a 6' 1x6 out of it I dump it in the grinder. I just counted the 6' 1x6 packs a couple days ago I got 22 packs with 72 in a pack. Guess it's time to be a little more selective on boards and make a little more mulch out of some.

Ron Wenrich · March 04, 2006, 07:13:45 AM

For me, a lot will depend on my markets. I can sell a 1x4x7 low grade to pallet makers. I can also sell a 1x3x4 in clear red oak to one particular buyer. But, for most species, I can't sell anything less than a clear 1x4x6.

I usually try to open to a 6" face. I know a lot of rules state a 4" face, but I can't sell select lumber. I can sell F1F, which means I need a 6"x8' board. So, that's what I'm trying to start with.

Where I develop the 4" is pulling that extra board on the back side of a marginal log. A good log that only has a 4" face, I will lose that board and go for grade. I then take a shim cut on the last cut, which throws all my waste to the inside.

Sometimes dollar yield and volume yield aren't the same.