So....I gotta make a decision

[CCC4]

Cutting on a really super nice LO, he loves everything I have done so far. Turned me loose on a mixed oak and pine set. He wants everything that can make a log tree cut. All was going great till I got heavy into the oak...it's running 75% rotten. Timber is gorgeous...IDK what to do. On one tank I cut 5 trees, 4 were complete loss. I cannot financially cut timber like that due to I'm paid by the load. I don't feel as if the LO should suffer seeing his timber cut and left, the stand will stay for years producing acorns for the deer the LO loves to hunt. I talked with my boss about it, told him if things didnt change pretty quick I was gonna suggest pulling out.

What do you guys think? What would you do? Mature timber stand, rot in the butt, rot from the top down, rot in the middle in some cases...very frustrating when I have trucks on my butt and minimal timber hitting the landing.

[lynde37avery]

cut 5 more if no change I'd bail. 

[treeslayer2003]

they were left to long or sick? idk, maybe jump around and see if you run out of it. it will be a mess either way.

[Nemologger]

I would show the landowner how they are cutting and explain the way it is to him. Then I would shake hands and move on.

[CCC4]

I ran test strips to see how wide of an area I am dealing with...I am going to try one more area and if its is running bad, I'm gonna have to call a meeting. !

Mike that's a good question, at first glance I said there was something wrong before I even cut it. I would sort of like to say it's past it's prime but I have been cutting waaay bigger timber in the same region. So I am gonna say its the soil....however some of the timber is dying from the top down. It's jacked up...a timber buyer's night mare...gorgeous timber standing...junk when on the ground. My boss is just paying by the ton so he has no money in it.

[treeslayer2003]

I ran test strips to see how wide of an area I am dealing with...I am going to try one more area and if its is running bad, I'm gonna have to call a meeting. !

Mike that's a good question, at first glance I said there was something wrong before I even cut it. I would sort of like to say it's past it's prime but I have been cutting waaay bigger timber in the same region. So I am gonna say its the soil....however some of the timber is dying from the top down. It's jacked up...a timber buyer's night mare...gorgeous timber standing...junk when on the ground. My boss is just paying by the ton so he has no money in it.

every tree every where won't get huge. some of the biggest sticks i ever cut were not nearly as old as folks think, they just grew in a good spot. but......top down is strange, i hardly ever see that and never a whole stand.

[longtime lurker]

I don't know much about oak - or that type of Oak anyway - but we cut a lot of one species that's prone to what's called black heart, it's a fungal decay thingy that annoys some in a stand but not others.

I bore the bar in vertically in the scarf area to look at the sawdust. If it's good the cut isn't in the way or costing any log. If it's bad a single vertical cut doesn't seem to hurt/ weaken the tree much and we move on.

Dunno if that type of wound would harm an oak of course, but if it doesn't it's a quick way to see what's inside.

[MJD]

Sounds like the last timber sale I bought(years ago), mine was hard maple and my log buyer was drooling over this stand when I showed him. Turned out 1 out of 10 trees were good, the rest made good bear bait logs. Worked over a month there and almost made my stumpage payment back after selling all the firewood and what few good logs I got. When I talked with this land owner about how poor the timber was running he said we have a contract and it was not his fault the timber ran poor and he wanted it all out including the firewood which was stated in the contract, I just didn't think I would have so much of it. That was the nail in the coffin in my timber buying.

[grassfed]

So your boss is paying the landowner by the ton and paying you flat rate right? The landowner is better off getting the low grade timber cut. Even if he likes deer the new regrowth should be attractive to deer and if you leave shelter wood oaks there will still be some acorns. As a landowner I have learned that it is better to get the low grade wood cut asap. A forester would be VERY helpful in determining the best course of action for the landowner. It sounds to me like you are the one that is getting a bad deal and maybe you should talk about an hourly rate with your boss. My point is that the work should probably be done if your boss is willing to pay you a fair wage.

[CCC4]

longtimelurker, I do the same thing only horizontally so if it's sound I just use that as part of my face. Problem I am running into is I can't feel the void with this type of rot sometimes...or just miss the void completely. Another problem I am having is the butt cut can be sound and the small end of the double sound but hollow in between. One load went to the mill yesterday and the boom operator snatched a double and cut it with his buck saw...hollow.

Mike, I totally understand what you are saying with the size timber. This stuff has the general appearance that it is older than its size. I would attribute that to over crowding. Like you say though, dying from the top down seems typical oak bore kill....but it is in the white oak also. Another strange thing is the water oak and hickory are running sound! Now for here that is very strange to me and never happens. There is some large diameter sweet gum on this tract, I'll bet ya it's good also...due to the simple fact that everything that ought to be good and high grade is crap.

Grassfed, yeh you are right, I am the one gonna take the beating...I'm not happy about it either.

[treeslayer2003]

is it a wet site Clint? i have seen red oak all be crap in a wet site while water oak and gum are fine. white oak will usually tolerate wet ground around here though. the hollow makes me think its not a bug but some aliment or possibly an old hog lot. i have seen old hog lots produce hollow stems. yeah almost every one of um.

[CCC4]

Its on a slope Mike, a little rocky, should have good drainage. Where the sweet gum is, it looks like it could hold water, timber is thin down there, just briars and buck brush. Funny you say hog lot!!...this timber reminds me of a job I did about 20 years ago that was a hog lot back in early 1900's. Oh what a pain, went through a chain every 3 days due to the rubs from the hogs years ago. It was an ERC cut, don't remember it being overly rotten, just a PITA to cut. There was a few pine the other day with wild hog rubbings...the mud was so old it looked baked on....yeh I hit it with my saw...omg

I cut on the top bench today and everything is running sound, I'm thinking this timber is pretty old, just had a rough life. Really tight grained. One odd thing I have noticed in the big pine...something happened when it was 15 to 18 years old, they were growing super fast, massive growth rings. Then on the 18th year, a large thick ring was produced and all growth rings were tight from there on out. Not on one tree....ALL the big ones! So...if you take that and say, well something happened to the pine in this area,,,then something may have very well happened to the oak also. There is a ring on them that is wide....maybe just a fire but not seeing much fire scar. Maybe Aliens landed in Prim and jacked up the soil! !   

[coxy]

aliens that what I was thinking you should go with that and tell ever one you found parts of the mother ship stuck in the trees  :D :D

[killamplanes]

Probly a combination of both. The alien ship started the fire that scared the trees that is the proof we needed. I'm sure of it.. :D

[RHP Logging]

Sounds like when those pine were young the site was put into pasture. Serious ground compaction will slow nutrients getting to the trees and majorly slow growth.  I bet that's why the oak is the way it is too.  Probably nearly quit growing around that time.  I've cut jobs like that.  Such a waste. The job I'm on right now I've quit cutting the red oak for the same reason.  Luckily the white oak is fine and makes up 90% of the job. I think the reds are just too old in this one though. Red oak should be cut 30-50 years before white in my opinion.

[grassfed]

I was thinking the same as RHP about the pasturing of cattle. The compaction that kills off the small roots and the trees lose vigor. I have places just like that; good soils and many hardwoods but they are low grade and full of defects. Add to that any good trees were probably high graded by the farmer and you wind up with a bunch of firewood. On my land the damage is not permanent and if I do patch cuts the young trees can do very well.

[treeslayer2003]

Sounds like when those pine were young the site was put into pasture. Serious ground compaction will slow nutrients getting to the trees and majorly slow growth.  I bet that's why the oak is the way it is too.  Probably nearly quit growing around that time.  I've cut jobs like that.  Such a waste. The job I'm on right now I've quit cutting the red oak for the same reason.  Luckily the white oak is fine and makes up 90% of the job. I think the reds are just too old in this one though. Red oak should be cut 30-50 years before white in my opinion.

i agree with that Bob. except rock oak [which the forester says is a white oak] and cherry bark oak. those two seem to grow at about the same rate as white oak, and usually on sandy ground.

[CCC4]

Makes sense about the old pasture land, I don't really see what else could be the problem except maybe over crowding.
One piece of timber I cut for the guy...the TSI pine thicket...was surrounded by a rock wall, this tells me it was planted in cotton, so there has been farmland in the area for sure.

[RHP Logging]

Sounds like when those pine were young the site was put into pasture. Serious ground compaction will slow nutrients getting to the trees and majorly slow growth.  I bet that's why the oak is the way it is too.  Probably nearly quit growing around that time.  I've cut jobs like that.  Such a waste. The job I'm on right now I've quit cutting the red oak for the same reason.  Luckily the white oak is fine and makes up 90% of the job. I think the reds are just too old in this one though. Red oak should be cut 30-50 years before white in my opinion.

i agree with that Bob. except rock oak [which the forester says is a white oak] and cherry bark oak. those two seem to grow at about the same rate as white oak, and usually on sandy ground.

What kind of oak you all have over there?  For white we have true white oak, swamp white oak, and burr. For red we have northern red and black.  North of me they have pin and scrub.  The stand I'm in the trees seem to be 180-210 years old.  The red oak is junk but the whites are just fine. The reds are all spider cracked if usable at all.   I've junked maybe two dozen whole trees on this job. Big ones too. Should have been 500-800 bfers.

[treeslayer2003]

Sounds like when those pine were young the site was put into pasture. Serious ground compaction will slow nutrients getting to the trees and majorly slow growth.  I bet that's why the oak is the way it is too.  Probably nearly quit growing around that time.  I've cut jobs like that.  Such a waste. The job I'm on right now I've quit cutting the red oak for the same reason.  Luckily the white oak is fine and makes up 90% of the job. I think the reds are just too old in this one though. Red oak should be cut 30-50 years before white in my opinion.

i agree with that Bob. except rock oak [which the forester says is a white oak] and cherry bark oak. those two seem to grow at about the same rate as white oak, and usually on sandy ground.

What kind of oak you all have over there?  For white we have true white oak, swamp white oak, and burr. For red we have northern red and black.  North of me they have pin and scrub.  The stand I'm in the trees seem to be 180-210 years old.  The red oak is junk but the whites are just fine. The reds are all spider cracked if usable at all.   I've junked maybe two dozen whole trees on this job. Big ones too. Should have been 500-800 bfers.

alot lol. at least a half dozen of each. so many different types of soil grow all different kinds of timber. white oak, chestnut oak [both swamp and high ground. northern red oak, southern red oak, pin oak, willow oak, cherry bark oak,rock oak, bur oak, jack oak......i am sure i am forgetting some. sweet gum, black gum, tulip poplar, black cherry, black walnut,beech, at least 4 different pine......lots and lots of freakin holly. i must have left out a bunch of stuff. we had alot of very good timber before all the housing developments.

a 200 year old white oak here would be about 5' wide under good conditions.

[treeslayer2003]

i forgot sassafras and black locust 

[RHP Logging]

Primary merch species here are the oaks, red and sugar maple, green and white ash, cherry, shagbark and bitternut hickory,  beech , elm , big tooth Aspen (popple), butternut,  walnut when you get a little farther south. Occasionally black locust too. Every once in a while a hackberry that is big enough for saw logs.  No sassafrass, gums, sycamore, or yellow poplar around here. 

[treeslayer2003]

i forgot ash n hickory too and soft maple

[CCC4]

Got culled on 16 tons this week because of this timber. My boss didn't take it out on my check or anything but it is pretty bad to have that much culled. Solid on butt end and tops...rotten in the middle. If we were a bucking operation it would be handled at the mill but we only use pole trailers and double bunk trailers.