I've been trying for for years to have someone cut wood on my land. 7 years ago I had Someone from our province of New Brunswick come and do up a wood lot management plan for the property. I was totally impressed with the plan and wanted to proceed. Years passed and I couldn't seem to get anyone from the province to move on it so I gave up and figured I'd manage it in my own since I had the plan. I reached out to a friend who was in the business. He was too busy but passed my name on to his friend who came and cruised the property and said he'd like the job. I gave him the plan and said I wanted to follow it as best we can. So that's the background. I need to tell you all that I am pretty meek and mild by nature. Don't like conflict,etc.
So this guy showed up a week and a half ago with a harvester and a huge 8 wheeled porter and proceeded to strip our forest. My wife and I are devastated. This is our greatest joy in life. Walking the family and dogs through the woods. We weren't doing this for the money. We just wanted to be good responsible land owners. We want this land to be enjoyed by our family for years to come. I don't blame this guy at all. He seems like a good guy. But I've called a meeting to get an update so he can show me how he is following the plan. But I'm new to all this. What specifically do I need to ask him. I know there are areas on the plan that called for thinning only. How can you thin with this harvester? It's like a transformer!
Here is what he offered btw.
23$ logs
21$ studs
5$ pulp
8$ birch
8$ popular
25$ per cord of hardwood.
But like I said. It's not about the money. Hope you all can give me some advice in a hurry. Meeting soon.
Yup you made a bad mistake.
Dont know how you can solve it.
Wbrent sorry to hear about your experience.
Do you have a written contract with the harvester? Do you have access to a forester who could come in, read your plan, evaluate what has been harvested so far and give an opinion as to what has been done compared to what is planned?
Not defending or accusing anyone here since we don't have any details but I will say that at some parts during a harvest things can look ugly before clean up has been done. No decent logger will have a problem walking you through the harvest and explaining what he is doing.
Good luck and keep us posted on how things go.
How many acres are involved?
Like others have said, what did the contract say (or not say)? Ultimately that's all that matters. Unfortunately it has become all too common for terms and expectations to be discussed with seemingly everyone on the same page but then that doesn't translate to actual intentions and actions in the woods. I don't want to rush to place blame on the logger because it's also possible he misunderstood your desired outcome because it was poorly conveyed.
Involving a Consulting Forester at this point is a bit of "too little too late" but he or she could look at the plan and tell you where it was implemented or ignored. Similarly they could update the plan to address what went wrong and set prescriptions to restore it though there will be no quick fix. Finally, if there was some violation of the contract (assuming there was one), the Forester may be able to assist with determining restitution value/avenues if legal recourse is needed.
A little "after the fact", but is the forester who did the management plan available to review the situation and determine if your plan is being implemented properly? If not, contact a local consulting forester serving your local area to review the situation and determine if good "forest management practices" are being implemented.
It's hard to cut wood without a "mess".
I had my land cut 3 times so far. I am very,very fussy when I cut on my land. But I can take the time to do it. I get all the money. I haul rocks into wet holes,cut any brush into lenghts not much longer than 2 feet. Run my saw up and down the limbs.
My cutting looks A LOT diffeant than how the loggers do it. Not saying anything bad.
Did you look at any lots that have been cut first?
I am wondering if your contract stated what method of logging was to be done. Sounds like it was cut to length. And for a neater job it should have been whole tree. Iv cut private land for years with the whole tree method. CTL would be a hard sell to private landowners for me.
Logger RK - not to get off topic but I think that is really subjective. Yes, a guy with a 440 JD will have a narrower skid path than a big 6 wheel forwarder, but he will likely rub more trees skidding, and then have to remove them, also more likely to damage crowns by hand felling, than a mechanical operation. In soft ground a skidder will have more soil compaction too, I think a lot comes down to how a guy wants to leave the job looking. CTL does have a higher operating cost so right or wrong production / cash flow comes into decision making a lot of times.
from what i have seen in nb if its mature sp fir often times its clear cut. just because that fir is only 4" dosent mean it isnt 70 yrs old. none of us have seen it so without lots of pictures its pretty hard to tell
Hopefully this gentleman shows back up to acknowledge the input.
Just a quick update. I went for a walk with the MAin operator yesterday. Ran out of time so we will walk more wednesday. So a few things he explained to me. The area he started in was the area most in need of harvesting. So it is the area that will look the worst (clearest). From there on he claims it wont look as bad. He said even though he took a lot of small looking stuff, he took it because it was done growing or starting to die. He determined this by looking at the "Leader" If there wasnt one he claims it is done growing. If left it will blow down now that everything around it has been cut. Regardless it is done growing. Also he cut anything regardless of size if it was covered in green moss. Again he claims these trees are dying and will soon be worthless. He was able to clearly show me many examples of that. He did admit that one of his workers may have been a little aggressive in an area or two and will be sure to speak to him. In the end he said he would do or cut whatever I wanted. Otherwise he would use his discretion as to what he thinks should be cut.
So we are going for another walk in the next two days to outline what I want cut in the next two sections of the property. We may have to do more frequent walks to make sure we are on the same page. Also I am leaving a few small areas that are hands off. These will be my play areas.
What do I need to consider? What do I need to ask? He figures hes cut about 8 acres so far. The property is probably close to 100. So its not too late to make right.
Reading that I see a lot of red flags, in my opinion. Green moss on trees causing death? It's entirely possible those trees were dead and/or dying but the moss certainly didn't cause it. It reminds me of guys around here telling landowners to cut all of their walnut due to thousand cankers disease. It's a scare tactic based on poor understanding on their part or just purposefully taking advantage of landowner ignorance.
As asked before, what's in the contract? Doesn't matter if he's cut 8 acres or 90 but there is little you can do if the contract grants him rights to all of the timber.
It sounds as if you are looking to your harvester or folks on this forum to provide a silvicultural opinion based on your management plan compared to the harvest as it has been implemted thus far. Frankly there's no effective way for anyone to do that on here. And I mean no disrespect to your harvester but he is not a forester (at least from what I gather); it's two totally different skill sets. You need a consulting forester or a government forester (if allowed in your location) involved in this project and sadly it seems like that opportunity has passed.
I see a lot of flags as well. especially the moss remark. if that is the case, many of my trees, as well as my house and cabin out back, our rocks in the gardens and stone wall are all DOOMED!
This guy you are calling a Forester. Are you calling him a Forester for any other reason than he calls himself one?
On the other side of things, keep in mind that a timber harvest is rarely a pretty thing when in process. Kinda like a colonoscopy. :D
Don't believe I've called anyone a forester.
I had a forester who works for the province do up the management plan. But he is the one that went AWOL for the last seven years. I don't know what you call the guy doing the work. A harvester? Lumberjack? Whatever. Doesn't matter. He cuts wood for a living.
We have no contract other than a hand shake. Actually I don't think we have that even. I could run out right now and ask him to stop if need be.
The management plan is back in my possession and I will study it more.
As for the mossy trees and what's been cut so far I will try to take and post some pictures. Not very good with computers so may take me a while. All for now.
If there is no contract then I would re-evaluate your approach to this process. You have a management plan in hand and you're doing your best to follow it with the help of a logger. While the logger may be excellent at his job, he may not be excellent at implementing your management plan. I think it would be very beneficial to put the cut on hold to at least invite a consulting forester out to inspect the property, see what has been done, and determine if it is the best way forward. If your forester determines that a sale is warranted I would allow him or her to handle the harvest. That could put you in an uncomfortable position with the logger but harvesting is something many people may only do once in their lives. It's important to do it right. I think you'll find more success this route rather than trying to manage it on your own. Either way you proceed I hope you're able to find a successful outcome.
Re the mossy trees, the logger may not be correct in his explanation, in that moss shouldn't kill a tree. Heck we would NONE left here if that was the case.
But what it does suggest is that the smaller moss covered trees are quite old, and have been suppressed and stunted by lack of light. Leaving them and hoping they grow is usually futile, as they have been suppressed for decades, and never really recover, or may even die when exposed to the full elements again. In that case it's usually better to remove them, and let something (hopefully better) grow in the open space left behind.
So slightly wrong reasoning, but same end result, and removing those trees is possibly a good idea.
A "Clear cut" isn't always a bad thing, if it's done for the right reasons, and just in the areas that would benefit from it. Looks like a bomb site at first, but give it a few years and all sorts of fresh regeneration starts coming up through the brush piles that were left behind.
I was comparing the 2 different logging methods. CTL leaves all the tops,branches & under size wood scattered where it's cut. Whole tree removes that product & is chipped. We do leave a few piles around a site for wild life. But around my area most private land owners like the whole tree method. Also most Aspen stands are better to be clear cut. You get a better uniform regrowth. And the Aspen chips are made in it to pellets for cow bedding & floor dry & even kitty litter. And the mixed wood under size chips are biomass for a electrical plant.
this being northern sp fir on the east coast its more than likely even aged wood. so it was all cut at one time or a field. count the rings on a 5" stump then a 12" close in age? any red heart? if its already 50 60 yrs old its not going to get bigger better by thinning around it. and then there is wind throw. dosent take much to blow down sp fir. is he cutting it the way it should could be without seeing it or pictures no way of telling
With 100 forested acres, you need to seek out the services of a professional consulting forester serving your area to update your management plan and implement the forest management as intended to meet your objectives.
I'd agree with Ron. If you have 100 acs then you need a professional consultant and a written CONTRACT. A management plan is just that a plan - it has no legal teeth and the logger is in no way obliged to follow it if there is no written CONTRACT to enforce it. I'm kind of surprised that after 7 years of looking at the plan the OP has not explored how to get it implemented. At this point you may want to get a lawyer involved but in any case get the logger to cease and desist and get something in writing before another tree is cut.
While I generally agree that small-diameter moss-covered trees may be suppressed, and I also concur that some of these trees may not do much, there are a couple of caveats I'd like to offer;
First, if any truly shade-tolerant species are present, and here I'm most thinking about white-cedar and perhaps eastern hemlock, those trees will indeed have a bit of a growth spurt once released from shade/competition. That is their very mode of eventually taking over vast swaths of the original northern mixed-wood forest...their ability to bide their time, grow in tiny increments for years to decades if that's what it takes, and then, to.....wait for better times. No species "wait" like these and a few others. This in contrast-obviously-to these same species much more rapid growth when say, invading an oldfield, or colonizing a spot of sunshine along the woods edge.
tom
So a quick response and update.
As I have said already. I had a plan done by my province and I have that person the ok to manage that plan. But after calling every year for seven years I have up on him and decided I need to go at it on my own.
Please don't take this the wrong way. Even though through a forum this may sound offensive. But I am from small town Canada. We do not seek lawyers and lawsuits every time we feel wronged. At least I don't. I have already had discussions with the cutter and agreed on a new approach that I am comfortable with. It mostly involves strip cuts in combination with thinning between the cuts. Each week we will walk the section to be cut and agree on how it is to be cut. I more or less live on this land and enjoy walking the woods so this is no problem for me to do. All for now.
Just curious - is this in Quebec? Word of mouth in small towns goes a long way to making things right. As long as you are comfortable with it. Trees are small and slow to grow up north - mistakes can take a long time to grow back.
wbrent, I am in the medical profession and appreciate that people do not go to an attorney for every bad outcome. If you feel this was a "failure to communicate", then try to work it out. It is not like money can bring the trees back. Or was he incompetent or malicious? You decide and do what you feel is right.
I too am on team "square things up face to face." Thats how men are supposed to behave.
The road to hell should be paved with lawyers.
My advise is for the land owner to visit a wood lot similar to his the prospective logger recently cut and of course contact the owner. No body would ever take the time to do this but they love their woods so much! It is sometimes hard to feel sorry for an able bodied resident who is shocked by his logging job.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 23, 2019, 01:56:52 PM
I too am on team "square things up face to face." Thats how men are supposed to behave.
The road to hell should be paved with lawyers.
And if hell doesn't work out for you, you can lay down another lawyer road to get out. Good use of lawyers :^P