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New Home In-Floor Heat

Started by mitchstockdale, December 31, 2017, 11:53:00 PM

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Corley5

  I bought a pex stapler to attach my lines to the sub floor.  I used pex-al-pex because it is supposed to transfer heat better and isn't noisy like regular pex.  I've got two runs of 1/2" tubing in each 16" space between the 2X10s and installed 8" thick foil faced fiberglass insulation with the foil up to reflect the heat up and leave a two inch air space.  My supply manifolds are in the basement with flow meters.  We didn't insulate the tubes going upstairs.  They're in the wall between a closet and the stairway.  Both are very warm.  We leave the closet door open.  The system is set up for thermostat controlled pumps and zone valves but we never installed the thermostats and adjust the temp with isolation valves on each zone.  The components are on the shelf in the mechanical room.  It's on my list to finish that part but until it then it works very well ;D   
  I'm considering putting some tubing in a wall of each room in the old part of the house to supplement the baseboard.  It would be hooked into a separate loop and pump and only used on the very coldest days when the baseboard falls behind.  I've got enough tubing left over and taking off the T&G and putting it back on wouldn't be too bad.
  I got my supplies online.  Shop around.  Pex Universe and Pex Supply were two sites that come to mind.  They offered free shipping with a minimum purchase 8)  I ordered some 1/2" ball valves a while ago because they were way cheaper than Lowe's or Home Depot.
  I don't know what you've got for a crawl space but I'd seriously consider putting your manifolds somewhere you can easily access them like a utility room or a closet on the ground floor if possible.  Installation as well as maintenance will be much easier.  If a pump or something needs replacing it would a whole lot more pleasant :) :) and it's easier to monitor the system.  Not that it needs much :)

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Stoneyacrefarm

Great input guys.
I'm currently working on the same kind of project.
Radiant heat in the basement floor and the first floor as well.
Work hard. Be rewarded.

Corley5

 

 



 

This is the pex stapler I've got.  Worth every penny.  It was used to install the potable pex as well.  We use the standoff clips.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Peter-Mangone-RB-5-Manual-Clip-Gun-5226000-p?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItpC56-vS2AIVFb3sCh1AIQ39EAQYASABEgJ_3fD_BwE 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

KamHillbilly

I have an 1 1/2" of concrete ( regular concrete with smaller rock and an additive which name I can't think of ) on my main floor covering pipes I just added an extra bottom plate on walls , most of main floor is 3/4" maple hardwood glued directly to concrete with Bosticks Best urathane adhesive . Wood has been down for 15 years with no issues , My friend has his stapled underneath sub floor with radiant plates and it seems to work well also but he ADL-Org insulated the under side between floors . Mind you we may be in a different climate we are in our 3rd week of -30C temps .
Homemade Bandmill ,Clark 664b ,Case 780b ,Jonsered 670,630

John Mc

KamHillbilly - mine is a similar setup to yours: A lightweight concrete slab poured on the subfoor (like you, I can't remember what was added to the concrete). I had sleepers nailed down before the slab was poured. The tubing runs in the gaps between the sleepers (the sleepers were left a bit short on the ends to create a gap fo the tubing to go through). Slab was poured on that between the sleepers. Instead of gluing, my hardwood flooring was nailed to the sleepers. It's been working well for 15+ years now, and I really like the thermal mass of the slab.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Crusarius

that is a great idea. I just don't want to add anymore to my existing floor

mitchstockdale

Quote

This is the pex stapler I've got.  Worth every penny.  It was used to install the potable pex as well.  We use the standoff clips.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Peter-Mangone-RB-5-Manual-Clip-Gun-5226000-p?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItpC56-vS2AIVFb3sCh1AIQ39EAQYASABEgJ_3fD_BwE

Wow!  I need this stapler... running the pipe is going to be a horrible enough job, this would sure make things go a little easier instead of swinging a hammer overhead.  Thanks Corley5 much appreciated.

Any particular reason you would use the stand off clips as opposed to the flush clips??

Does anyone know of an online supplier that carries this product and will ship to Canada I tried the online portal at supply house and it seems they don't ship to Canada.

Corley5

http://www.petermangone.com/Canada%20Distributors.php

The standoff clips hold the tubing away from the surface so it doesn't wear with expansion and contraction from rubbing.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom


clerkick

I have an ICF home, actually my first house, radiant heat on both floors, in slab and stapled to second floor subfloor with what is basically foil faced bubble wrap placed between the joists. This seems to work well, aside from the master bed/bath zone. Master bed has the only carpet in the house and is on the north wall of a home designed for passive solar. This I think costs me more money than the type of tubing attachment would. Carpet and padding provide a lot of resistance to heat transfer. Currently 14 degrees and this is my slab vs bedroom temps.  Edit: the original owner ran tubing in the garage slab but never hooked it up. Something the wife and I think about adding every winter. A lot easier to add a thermostat and a tyco valve than to add tubing after the fact. 

  

 

50 Acre Jim

What's your boiler set at? Temp sure looks low coming into the house.
Go to work?  Probably Knott.  Because I cant.

mitchstockdale

Does anybody have any recommendations on whether insulation is needed on the zone piping that runs from the manifold to where the zone loops start.  In my case the approximate pipe length is going to be about 20+ft from the manifold outlet to where the loop starts. Is this something to consider or does it matter in the grand scheme of the system?

mitchstockdale

Quote from: 50 Acre Jim on January 24, 2018, 08:20:08 PM
What's your boiler set at? Temp sure looks low coming into the house.

I wonder if this is because he has an ICF house? my friend built an ICF home and he can literally heat the place with a candle...lol

Corley5

  When I was in the planning stages for my in floor heat it was recommended that I read Dan Halohan's books.  I got these  "Pumping Away"; "Hydronic Heating, Practical guide for the Nonengineer"; and "Primary-Secondary Pumping Made Easy".
Dan's website https://heatinghelp.com/about-us/
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

E Yoder

Quote from: 50 Acre Jim on January 24, 2018, 08:20:08 PM
What's your boiler set at? Temp sure looks low coming into the house.
This is mixed down water, correct? Not the full temp boiler water.
HeatMaster dealer in VA.
G7000

E Yoder

Quote from: Corley5 on January 25, 2018, 09:17:58 AM
  When I was in the planning stages for my in floor heat it was recommended that I read Dan Halohan's books.  I got these  "Pumping Away"; "Hydronic Heating, Practical guide for the Nonengineer"; and "Primary-Secondary Pumping Made Easy".
Dan's website https://heatinghelp.com/about-us/
Agree, great info- well worth the money and entertaining too.
HeatMaster dealer in VA.
G7000

E Yoder

Quote from: mitchstockdale on January 25, 2018, 08:51:01 AM
Does anybody have any recommendations on whether insulation is needed on the zone piping that runs from the manifold to where the zone loops start.  In my case the approximate pipe length is going to be about 20+ft from the manifold outlet to where the loop starts. Is this something to consider or does it matter in the grand scheme of the system?
depends on whether it heats the area you are trying to heat or somewhere else. It will reach off some heat, not a lot.
HeatMaster dealer in VA.
G7000

Randy88

I'm not sure what climate you guys are living in, but I'd have a basement under any home I own, put in floor heat in the cement floor, then forced air ducts in the house for both forced air heat and also cooling in the summer.     I'd run a radiator in the plenum off a boiler to heat the house.      

This gives options for other heat sources, and cooling sources later on down the road.  

With any in floor or under floor hot water heat system, you only have a certain amount of BTU's per square foot and in severe extended weather conditions, depending on the insulation and a host of other factors, many in my area found out it wasn't enough to keep the house or shop warm without an added heat source.     



John Mc

Quote from: Randy88 on March 12, 2018, 07:17:18 AMWith any in floor or under floor hot water heat system, you only have a certain amount of BTU's per square foot and in severe extended weather conditions, depending on the insulation and a host of other factors, many in my area found out it wasn't enough to keep the house or shop warm without an added heat source.


It sounds as though the radiant heat systems to which you are referring were improperly designed or sized for the house in question. In a well insulated house, with a properly designed system, you will have no problems.

I have radiant heat in the floor of my home here in Vermont. I have zero problems keeping my house warm with my radiant floor heat. In fact, my first floor is a mostly open floor plan made up of two zones. I can keep it comfortable (by my wife's standards - which is 72˚F) running just one of the two zones in all but very unusual circumstances. When we have a couple weeks in a row of -10˚F or lower, I might have to kick the second zone on.

I will grant that my house is very well sealed and insulated.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Randy88

Yes your right with proper sizing, but you didn't take into account when a problem arose with the in floor heat, forcing a shut down of a part of the house, or most of the house or in a few cases, the entire house.

You also never took into account something most heating experts neglect to discuss, its called heat recovery.

A few years back we had a long cold snap, wind chills 80 or more below zero, weeks on end, little to no snow cover, frost pushed 8 and some cases 9 feet deep, far deeper than any water lines or buried utility lines, water lines were simple to keep from freezing, just leave the water run, till the frost heave sheared them off, same for electric and even heating and gas lines, private septics froze solid, many municipal sewer lines sheared off or froze up as well.    

About every heating person known at the time became public enemy number one overnight, they never took into account heat recovery in any heating equation, from houses to shops and everything in between.    Many were abandoned or froze up because there were not enough man power to go around soon enough to get everything hooked up in time to keep the house from freezing up, top that off and those not affected, had their heating equation changed from the inside to outside temps or what some called heating differential or degrees of heat rise were more than doubled, meaning even running 24/7 most heating systems could not keep up, add in complications even slight ones and houses froze up with properly operating heating systems and even additional electric heaters hooked up and running.       

Electric, gas and even heating lines were easy to hook back up and get going, most were laid over the top of the ground, which is what was done, the issue that came apparent very fast was the time factor, coupled with the sheer volume of work needed doing for everyone everywhere and in hours, houses, shops and livestock buildings froze up, those that didn't, used every possible heating option and source available to keep them above freezing.     Myself, I used electric, forced air propane, wood boiler and even in the shop, diesel fired torpedo heaters to keep things thawed out.

Most heating equations are figured at a certain degree's heat rise, then once there, its a maintenance heating requirement.     Run the figures but double or triple the heat load, then recalculate it with that same heat load starting at zero or below in the house, see if your heating system can not only keep up, but get it above zero and if so, how many hours will it take to do it.    

After that ordeal, I'd recommend having options, one being forced air heat, so instead of using 100 degree water in the in floor heating, you have the option of using 180 plus degree water with forced air to hasten the heat recovery in the house, or have a backup gas furnace to kick in to help recover or maintain if needed, especially if a portion of the heating source needs to be shut down for repairs or even if the whole system has to be shut down for a day to do repairs.    Just tossing out problems some of us have encountered and never saw coming or were told not to worry about, after all its never happened before.......................

E Yoder

I would agree that having multiple heat sources is good. A backup plan is always a good idea. The other thing is that with two (or more) you can size them for the normal load so they don't short cycle, then turn them both on once in a blue moon for quick recovery. One system sized for recovery would run in short bursts and not function well quite a bit of the time.
Of course two systems adds cost.. most folks feel like they can't afford it.
HeatMaster dealer in VA.
G7000

John Mc

Randy -

What you are describing sounds like a problem with any type of heating system: if it's not sized to handle the load (including recovery, if you lose heat for a time), you are going to have problems. It's not just a matter of the temperature of the water you are pumping, it's also a matter of the surface area. With my entire floor warm, I'm able to put just as much heat into the room as I could with baseboard heaters running at 160-180˚.

Our boiler and radiant floor heat is probably oversized for how well the house is insulated, given that most winters if we are not using the wood stove we can heat the two main stories with just half the first floor's heating area turned on. I suspect the guy doing the calculations for the design used calculations based on stick-built 2"x6" walls. (We have a timber frame enclosed by 6" thick SIPS, which insulates far better than 2x6 walls, since there are no thermal breaks - except for windows.)

We did have a winter as you described several years ago. We had repeated instances of well below 0˚F for extended periods (my recollection was regularly in the -20's and staying there), bare ground, so no insulating effects from snow cover, high winds. We are on a deep well, and had to keep a slow drip going to keep the line from our well to the house flowing. Two neighboring towns have city water. Some of their main lines were freezing up - lines that had never frozen in anyone's memory. During that spell, we turned on both our downstairs zones. Upstairs bedrooms ran occasionally (programmable thermostats were set to give them a little kick before it was time to get up each morning). I may have also turned the basement slab on during that spell, just as insurance so we'd have some thermal mass up to temperature to buy us time if the power went out when we were away.

We are fortunate that our house is extremely well sealed and insulated. Most of the time, we're using a 60,000 BTU Hearthstone woodstove to heat the two upper floors (about 2200 sq ft, though some of that floor area is "missing" since we have a cathedral ceiling area). If I'm around to keep it stoked (I do a fair amount of work from home), it will keep the house comfortable in all but a prolonged very cold spell. We don't heat the basement much - occasionally we'll kick the heat on in that slab, if someone is going to be down there for a while.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Randy88

So how do you cool the house in the summer?

John Mc

Quote from: Randy88 on March 16, 2018, 05:42:04 AM
So how do you cool the house in the summer?
We don't really need to. Typically, we get a week or so that is above 85˚. If I leave the awning extended over our big south facing window, and pull the other shades/curtains during hot, sunny days, the house will stay cool enough through that spell. If it gets too bad, we have an 8 or 10,000 BTU window air conditioner that we put in to take the edge off. Most summers, we don't need it. The last two, we did pull it out - the couple of weeks in the 90's, with occasional highs around 100 were too much for us, and the house eventually absorbed enough heat to get uncomfortable.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Randy88

Here the norm is pretty much central air for the whole house and to cool it to at least the mid 70's or lower, we try to keep the house in the low 70's year round.      Forced air is the only way to achieve it, guess there is a huge difference in area's and their needs.      

    


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