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A Few Swinger Questions

Started by Qweaver, February 10, 2010, 10:29:48 AM

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Qweaver

I've been thinking about buying an 8" swinger and looking at the used adds.  But a few recent posts have me asking some questions.  I watched a Peterson 8" sawing at a forestry show last summer and I did not see him taking two passes to make the 8" cut and he seemed to be sawing full speed.  I don't recall exactly what kind of wood it was and maybe it was just an easily sawn wood.  Oak might have required a different technique.  Taking two passes seems like a lot of walking and time wasted.

Is it necessary to run a water drip when sawing high resin woods?  I can't make 2 passes with my bandsaw on pine without soapy water before the blade gums up. 

Is there a diagram somewhere that shows the typical cutting sequence for a swinger to get the most out of a log?

I appreciate any help on this.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

zopi

y'know, the wording in that post and title on any other website...


:D
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

ErikC

  Taking two passes is seldom necessary in my experience. Not often enough to be problem. Keeping the blade in good shape is pretty easy and is the answer to almost all your problems with how a swing mill is cutting, alignment being in order.
  I guess the water depends on several things, but I seem to need it most on dry logs of any type, wet pine has a lot of resin but cuts like a breeze with no water at all. In the frozen stuff you work in, I have no idea what would be best in this regard ;D
  I think the Peterson website shows a few cutting diagrams, and you can use your imagination if you see one to figure various patterns. Just remember it goes 1 layer at a time, whether horizontal or vertical. Usually a couple horizontal layers first to get into the log, then either way depending on what you want in grain structure, and a horizontal layer or two on the bottom to get the last few boards. That description may not help much, go look at the website :-\

Anyway happy sawing  8)
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Ianab

Here are some common cutting patterns from the Peterson site.
http://www.petersonsawmills.com/mill_ops_patterns.htm
You dont have to stick to them though. You can Q-saw part of a log and flat saw another section. You can change your mind once you see whats inside the log etc.

The Peterson mills, especially the newer high powered mills will do the 8, 10" cuts in one pass, although you would usually slow the feed rate a little, compared to what you can run the 1 and 2" cuts through anyway. My mill only has a chainsaw powerhead to drive it, so although it can make an 8" cut it's usually quicker to run 2 x4" cuts at normal speed. But with more power, just make the 8" in one pass.

The water drip is more about cooling the blade, if it gets hot you do get resin buildup and the blade can deform. Then things go down hill fast.

I think part of the issue that the Lucas mills have with the 8" cuts is that the blade has a thinner kerf. Less waste sawdust, but the blade is not as solid. You cant have everything. So the double cutting is just a work around if things aren't going your way sometimes.

The mills dont seem to have any problems cutting very hard woods, Aussie Eucalyptus is often denser and harder than oak. Sometimes softwood gives more grief with it's dense knots and changes in grain and density. Some of the worst behaved logs I've sawn were knotty Port Orford Cedar. Motoring along in the cut and run into big knot and weird grain.. grrrr

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

sigidi

Qweaver, from my Lucas point of view, I operate my mills as a business, I have three goals in mind when I mill; quality of product, speed (as I charge by the volume I cut) and longevity of equipment (as I have to repair/replace it if I break it)

With this in mind taking 2 cuts for a full width horizontal gives a more consistent, repeatable, higher quality finished board, yep there is more walking, but the speed isn't less as each bite is quicker with being smaller and I'm not flogging the daylights our of my gear so he (Larry the 6-18) and now she (Bo Derrick the 10) will do their job for a long time.

I've got a 6-18 and my new 10-30, all my experience has been with my 6-18 so I am keen to see what the extra ponies and the different gearing do for cutting results and speed. With that in mind I've seen 4/4x10" take 30 seconds to cut in New Guinea timber - not sure if it was classed hardwood or softwood.

As Ian said some of our timber is really dense - I regularly get to cut Ironbark, Spotted Gum, Grey Gum and Tallow wood 1250kg/m3, 1200kg/m3, 1250kg/m3 and 1200kg/m3 I'm not sure what the unit of measure for density is over there (I can convert it over for you once I know) but they are pretty hard, so given their density it is easy to get variable results if doing a single full width horizontal cut, I have to slow the speed of travel down when doing full width horizontal cuts and my gear works twice as hard - doesn't suit any of my 3 goals.

Water - I run water all the time on softwood or hardwood, regardless of green or 'seasoned' logs, immediately upon finishing a cut the blade is cool, no heat at all. I've found heat is the achilles heal of the blades. It can have terrific clearance from the angles on the teeth, fantastic sharp corners to the TCT and cut like a hairy dog because it's got hot and lost tension. Again my 3 goals; keeps me using water.

Cutting diagrams - depends totally on what the cut list is and what it is going to be used for. Depending on usage, backsawn is the only way the timber should be cut, so in this case the top 1/3 of the log is cut with the timber 'lying down' the mid 1/3 is cut 'standing up' and the bottom 1/3 cut 'lying down' again
Not the best diagram, but it gives you the idea. Most often through the mid 1/3 I take 1 row of full depth boards. So if the customer wants 8/4x5, then I start the 'mid 1/3' 2.5" above heart, so a full 5" drop is evenly centered on the heart. If the log is big enough then sure two rows of 5" drops is okay,but even with our 'big gums' I don't get many of them.


So I mark the heart of the log at each end, then line the blade up to the vertical mark at each end of the log. This means vertically the blade runs parallel to the heart throughout the log. Then I flip the blade to horizontal, slide if off to the side of the log and then from the side of the mill I eyeball the tracks with the horizontal marks, once the tracks are in line with the horizontal paint marks the heart the blade runs parallel to the heart of the log both horiz and vert.
Always willing to help - Allan

scsmith42

Quinton, if you feel like taking a little drive, you're welcome to come down to Raleigh and try out my Peterson.  Although I have not replaced the garage appartment, we have a very comfortable camper that you can stay in and you and Sarah are more than welcome to visit.  Come to think of, I wouldn't mind getting some "professional welding instruction" from you while you're here! ;D

Some comments....

My Peterson is a 10" 27 HP WPF.  I cut oak extensively, and almost always make two passes for a 10" board (or 4 passes for a 20" board).  Sigidi has a great post, and I concur with a lot of his comments.

My cutting pattern varies per log, based upon the log size, shape, and defects.  I saw a lot of 30" - 60" logs, and my approach to them is different than when I'm sawing an 18" log. 

The nice thing about a swinger is that you have a great deal of versatility to work around defects for the highest yield of FAS/Select, or you can go for the highest possible yield of all grades.

Some things that I've learned... more HP is better, have a good metal detector handy and use it, and it's a good idea to have a tractor, skid steer, or some type of loader to assist with handling logs and boards.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

sigidi

Quote from: scsmith42 on February 10, 2010, 05:01:50 PM
Quinton, if you feel like taking a little drive, you're welcome to come down to Raleigh and try out my Peterson.  Although I have not replaced the garage appartment, we have a very comfortable camper that you can stay in and you and Sarah are more than welcome to visit.  Come to think of, I wouldn't mind getting some "professional welding instruction" from you while you're here! ;D

Aint the forum just grand! ;D 8) Gotta love bein involved with fella's who are happy to help out - good onya Scotty.


Quote from: scsmith42 on February 10, 2010, 05:01:50 PM
My Peterson is a 10" 27 HP WPF.  I cut oak extensively, and almost always make two passes for a 10" board (or 4 passes for a 20" board).  Sigidi has a great post, and I concur with a lot of his comments.

My cutting pattern varies per log, based upon the log size, shape, and defects.  I saw a lot of 30" - 60" logs, and my approach to them is different than when I'm sawing an 18" log. 

The nice thing about a swinger is that you have a great deal of versatility to work around defects for the highest yield of FAS/Select, or you can go for the highest possible yield of all grades.

Too true, I guess it's summed up by 'reading the log' and experience, knowing what you can and cant do and using that swinging versatility to get the most for your customer 8)

Quote from: scsmith42 on February 10, 2010, 05:01:50 PM
Some things that I've learned... more HP is better, have a good metal detector handy and use it, and it's a good idea to have a tractor, skid steer, or some type of loader to assist with handling logs and boards.

Yeah, for sure the extra ponies are always good, get as many as you can afford, it's a lot easier to take advantage of the extra ponies you have, as compared to upgrading them if you find you want more.
As for a loader.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYFkGjNFoI

take a look at this! I just saw it on pnybrg's post about his new business https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,42055.0.html

Great bit of gear I reckon!!
Always willing to help - Allan

Firebass

IMO think it depends on how accurate you want to cut your boards when cutting horizontally.   I like having a stack of boards that measure + or - 1/32" on the thickness.   Maybe a little hard to do without making a guide cut....   I never do a double cut on the vertical cut because the blade normally won't wander.  I'm not exactly sure why but I think it has to do with gravity pulling down on the blade vs in the vertical position all gravitational forces are evenly distributed to the rim.   On full (8" horizontal ) cuts I will make a quick starter cut this keeps the blade from rising or diving and makes perfect boards even in rough stessed or knotty wood.  This cut is a extra step but it insures that your boards will be nice and consistent.   You really don't have to cut more than a inch or two deep to give the blade a guide to follow.  Even if you make a 4" guide cut you can rip thought the log like butter since your only cutting so little.
like others are saying if everything is in tune and your in good wood.... not a problem with full cuts in both horizontal and vertical.

6" deep is a whole different thing and I never have needed to make a guide cut.


sigidi

So I got some better pics from my Lucas manual to show backsawn and quartersawn on a swinger;

Typical backsawn pattern using my Lucas;




Ideal quartersawn pattern, to maximise amount and size of QS boards using my Lucas;




An easier method of still producing QS boards using a Lucas, but less messing around;



Qweaver, I reckon they are better pics than the one I chucked up earlier and hopefully much easier to understand the cutting sequence using a swinger.
Always willing to help - Allan

Qweaver

Thanks for all the good info everyone.  I've passed-up a lot of excellent logs over the past four years that I could have easily sawn with a swinger.  I have several 30" logs right now that are just to big to handle on my LT15.
I'm considering where I would locate a swinger on our property.  I hate working in the mud.  Does it make sense to put the saw on a concrete pad under a shed roof?
We'd love to come visit Scott (especially if we get a swinger) but this weather will have us hunkered down for awhile. :(
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

ErikC

 I wish I had a concrete pad with a shed for mine when it's on my place....Go for it.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

sigidi

Quinton, I'd love a shed/roof over mine at home - then I could use my laser sight attachment ;D

I'm not sold on concrete as a base for a Lucas - not sure about a Peterson as there track/endframe setup is different. With a Lucas the bottom rail of the endframes 'roll' when the tracks are being raised and lowered - I operate on my own so you can imagine the geometry when you raise one endframe then raise the other, they both finish in the same spot for cutting so it makes no difference to cutting. Also on concrete when you do wider horizontal cuts you get a degree of side bounce which would keep moving the endframes and would then make things rather difficult to keep square.

If you designed a 'stop' into your slab so the end frame was against the stop while milling, this would alleviate any sidewards force generated in horizontal cuts. Admittedly the stays are there, but when the quality of each board relies upon the mill staying in place; I'd design some stops
Always willing to help - Allan

scsmith42

Quote from: Qweaver on February 11, 2010, 09:42:43 AM
Thanks for all the good info everyone.  I've passed-up a lot of excellent logs over the past four years that I could have easily sawn with a swinger.  I have several 30" logs right now that are just to big to handle on my LT15.
I'm considering where I would locate a swinger on our property.  I hate working in the mud.  Does it make sense to put the saw on a concrete pad under a shed roof?
We'd love to come visit Scott (especially if we get a swinger) but this weather will have us hunkered down for awhile. :(
Quinton

Quinton, no problem on the visit - keep it in mind when the weather clears.

Re a saw shed/floor, yes to the roof, and "perhaps" to the floor.  If I had to choose between fabricating a log leveling/turning/dogging / height adjusting system for my Peterson, versus a concrete slab, I'd opt to the ajustment system every time.

A significant portion of my time is spent getting the log correctly positioned in the bunks, and the pith centered from end to end and side to side.  Additionally, if there are any defects in the log sometimes I have to shift it around - all of which is time consuming. 

With your fabrication skills, you could easily knock something out that would really speed up the operation.

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

ErikC

 As far as the concrete goes, I have the low track setup, and i have cut on asphalt a lot, it was the best setup I ever had. 8) 8) The Lucas, or Peterson high-lo setup, would likely bounce around more on it I think. Scott is right about the log adjusting, I also have considered building a better way.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

sigidi

Quote from: scsmith42 on February 11, 2010, 11:10:47 PM

...Re a saw shed/floor, yes to the roof, and "perhaps" to the floor.  If I had to choose between fabricating a log leveling/turning/dogging / height adjusting system for my Peterson, versus a concrete slab, I'd opt to the ajustment system every time...

...With your fabrication skills, you could easily knock something out that would really speed up the operation.

Quote from: ErikC on February 12, 2010, 10:49:01 AM
...Scott is right about the log adjusting, I also have considered building a better way.

You could just use a Lucas :o Not trying to be cheeky, but with having the two endframes independent of each other; leveling and adjusting the rails to match the logs, match the lay of the land or account for large tapered logs is pretty simple. I know I spend a good deal of the day loading and lining up logs, but I'd expect it is much easier to adjust the rails rather than try to adjust the log.
Always willing to help - Allan

Captain

I thik Eric as well as myself do a bunch of sawing on our own without any help.  In my opinion, the single point sizing on a Peterson WPF far outweighs the ability to adjust for taper in the occasional log.  A Lucas is just way too much walking to lower the rails for one person to operate.

Captain

ErikC

 I'm never alone as long as my backhoe is onsite. ;D The one log adjustment I never seem to need to make is for taper. I take a guess, and adjust the bunks with a block under one end or the other, usually 2 or 4 inches, works easy and fast. From the rail to the center of the log I have to bump almost every time, but it's pretty easy. The measuring takes as much time as the adjustment, but it all adds up, that's where a frame type bed would save time.
I would not care for the two point sizing, but that's just my opinion. And apparently Captains. ;)
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

sigidi

Captain you made me smile :D too much walkin ;D we walk all day on any swingers unless you're using an ASM and you still have to walk a fair bit then too ;D

I operate almost exclusively on my own, probably more than 95% of the time, even for log handling no machinery to help out, lift logs etc. Erik has already got an adjustment system to make things easier on his mill - his backhoe. I've got a two part adjustment system on my mill - iron bar and cant hook;D

On adjusting the rails - I finish the current layer over the right hand side and at the far end of the log (referenced to the operators position) I flip the blade to horizontal, wind it over to a spot around the left side of the log, as I draw the head back over the log, I visually check the first edge for the next board, adjusting as needed. Then I'm at the other end of the rails/tracks, I adjust the depth of cut at this end frame (so 1-2m walk) Then on my way back to the far end of the log, I shift the blade back to the left on the set works and off to the left side of the log, roll the carriage back to the far end of the log and adjust the other end frame to suit my depth of cut (again 1-2m walk) so now I've lined up my first vertical cut into the next face and seen exactly where it will cut (so I don't get part way through that first vertical and the log may have a slight reduction in diameter and the cut goes into thin air or end up cutting a board with a heap of wane) plus adjusted my depth of cut for the next layer at the same time using possibly 12-14m of walking (maybe 16-18m if I've got my 8m tracks on) To line the blade up for the next cut I'd have to roll the carriage over the log anyway needing around 12m (or 16m with 8m tracks) of walking anyway, or I could just guess and maybe jag it and get it right or more likely be too far left and need to slide a bit more to the right and do another 12m of walking or worse still be too far right to begin with and waste a chunk of the customer's log. I find this method gives me the best quality/result and speed, plus doesn't promote any more maintenance on the gear - suits all 3 of my goals when milling.
Always willing to help - Allan

ErikC

  Here's one thing we are all sure of--Lucas or Peterson, two passes on a wide cut or one pass, adjust the rails or adjust the carriage.....It all beats a manual bandmill for big logs :D :D
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Qweaver

The reason that I asked the question about a shed and concrete floor is that I started out sawing out in the open, on dirt with my bandmill and keeping the rails level and dealing with weather(both sun and rain) was a constant problem.  Once I built the sawshed and poured a 4'x24' concrete base for the saw, sawing, stacking and cleanup became much easier. I can't see why that would not hold true for the swinger also.   

But what do I know? I haven't operated a swinger so it is just a WAG on my part.  Would it not be practical to bolt the framework down to the slab and carry the log in with my FEL forks?  I think that my JD 110 will lift any log that I want to saw.  But again,  that's why I asked for input from the experienced sawyers on this forum and I appreciate  your replies.
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Captain

The best sawing surface is a flat and level one, asphalt or concrete.  Eases the cleanup, and keeps the sawdust free from the dirt to be used for other purposes (like animal bedding)

Captain

sigidi

Quinton, correct me if I'm wrong, with your bandmill you dog the log to the mill don't you? with a swinger the log stays still and the regularity and consistency of your boards relies on the log staying still and the mill frame staying still.

The concrete floor is a great thing for cleaning up and you can make it as level as you like in the beginning, my only concern with a concrete floor and (in my case a Lucas) is the 'possibility' of the bottom rails of the endframes sliding on the concrete when doing larger horizontal cuts. I'm not saying it will, but it's an area which may give grief, so that's why I mentioned putting some kind of shoulder for the bottom rail to butt up against nothing big maybe something 2-3" high where the bottom rails would sit. the support arms come out the side and peg into the ground somewhere off the slab and the rails would be held by the shoulder built into the slab.

I've not milled on a slab before, but figure a bit of gal pipe sitting on a concrete floor would slide easily, it may not as I said, but it'd be something easy to put in place at the time of pouring to make sure it didn't slide. Or hey you could try it without and if it did slide, then bolt a couple of sections of angle iron to the floor...

But otherwise I can't see any issue with a concrete floor for a Lucas
Always willing to help - Allan

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