Breaking Bands

[Gary_B]

I have a timberking 1220 mill and seems like every log I saw I end up with a broken band  be I finish the log, I was having this problem got the manual out and went thru everything as far as adjustments go, checking my wheels, guide bearings.....etc. still breaking bands, the lumber that I do saw looks perfect, no wave, I know my bands are getting old, and I do need to replace soon, but Id like to know what is causing the bands to snap, most of the time its after I have made a cut and theres no pressure on the band, next thing you hear a bang, there goes another blade, any idea to where I should look. I still keep the same amount of pressure on the old bands as I would a new one, the 1220 has a handle that you turn which puts pressure on a spring that tightens the band, it has a mark that you line up.

[Brad_S.]

Take a good look at the gullets of the bands you have broken. Chances are you will see micro cracks in them. You may possibly find them in the used but sharp blades you are about to put on as well. If all your bands have been used and sharpened equally, they may all be approaching the end of their lives together as well. I have had that happen often.

[ladylake]

 If your wheels have v belts and they are worn so the blade hits the metal on the wheel your blades will break fast, I beveled the edges of my wheels with a angle grinder so the blade doesn't hit the wheel near as soon. Other than that your blade should track the same when turned backwards, also a good chip deflector helps but you should get 5 or 6 sharpenings even without one.   Steve

[customsawyer]

I don't know about a TK but if your belts are a bit loose and you get something under them at one point it will make a hammering effect on the blade. This is why I run belts that are tight.

[tyb525]

Make sure your guides aren't too far behind the blade.

[LeeB]

Check your bearings on the drive and idle wheels.

[Gary_B]

Thanks for everyones suggestion, I think the weather should be descent tomorrow, so I am going over everything and see if I can find out the problem, my hats off to the builders that build there own mills, its hard enough at times just to keep mind up and running

[barbender]

A friend had a TK that he said broke a lot of blades, it ended up being a bad bearing in one of the band wheels.

[LeeB]

The idle side is prone to failure.

[Gary_B]

whats the best way to check the bearings, would trying to move the wheel in and out to see if theres any slack in the bearing

[kderby]

Back when I was still learning....now I know it all :D :D :D...  I was breaking blades and called the dealer.  He asked "how long are you running them?"  I said. "until they are dull."  Wrong answer!  Perhaps you have pushed the blades too hard?  I do not know how to say when a blade is dull. I notice the wavey cuts that you mentioned.  That is blade pushed too hard.  If I think a blade might be needed, that little voice of experience speaks from within.  I try to listen .  I also look at the tooth and if a shine is visible on the tip of the tooth, that indicates a dull blade.  If someone has a better way to say that or other ideas on blade life, I hope they speak up.  Not that I need to learn anything... : : ;D

[Gary_B]

I agree about the dull blades, but I use to be able to cut atleast 3 logs before dulling blade, but now I cannot cut 1, and the lumber is perfect coming  off the mill. no wave or black marks. You can tell when the blade is getting dull, just doesnt go thru the lumber like it should, specially with a manual mill.

[kderby]

If you are not getting one log cut when starting with a sharp band on a manual mill,  I see your issue.  Let us know what you learn.  I don't have knowledge specific to your mill, so I am not much help.

[Wrangler55]

When I was running a Timberking B-20 I had several episodes of band breaking.  One was caused by the belt being too lose on the wheels. The previous operator couldn't get the right belt installed so he used the next bigger size. Sawdust and chips built up under it and when I replaced the rubber belt with the right one the blades stopped breaking.  Another time the belt was worn and blades broke.  Yep, new belts and no more broken broken blades.  Both times the band would break when it wasn't cutting.  Another time the bearings in the idler wheel seized and blades started breaking.  That one was easy to spot.  I'd try changing the belts.  The first time I changed the belt I had no idea how to do it... A phone call to Timberking resulted in some ideas, but a video on youtube would have been a much bigger help.  My new 1220 came with a video that shows how to change a belt.  Timberking (and other manufacturers) would sell more mills if they'd put more videos of their products and how to use them on the Internet! If I'd seen the video that came with my new mill, I would have bought one years ago. Might have even upgraded to a more automated mill by now too.

Hal

[Gary_B]

Thanks again the belt on the mill is the orginal one that came on the mill and its about 7 years old. Just not sure how the belt going to the electric clutch and then to the band wheel would affect the band, but I will check it out.

[Wrangler55]

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was talking about the V-belt (B-56) on your bandsaw wheels. One time breaking blades was because someone put B-57 v-belts on and sawdust and chips built up in the V on the wheels.  The other time they just wore down and the blade was contacting the metal.  Changing the V-Belt both times stopped the blade breakage.

Hal

[pineywoods]

Cheap and easy way to tell when a blade is getting dull. Get yourself a cheap ($10) bicycle speedometer and put it on one of the bandwheels. Most of them run on a button battery and shut themselves off when there is no motion. What the readout shows is actual speed of the band through the log, which will show a small drop when the band starts to get dull or you push the blade too hard. Might not work quite as well on mills with the bigger diesel engines.

[Gary_B]

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was talking about the V-belt (B-56) on your bandsaw wheels. One time breaking blades was because someone put B-57 v-belts on and sawdust and chips built up in the V on the wheels.  The other time they just wore down and the blade was contacting the metal.  Changing the V-Belt both times stopped the blade breakage.
Oh okay Hal, thats a real good suggestion, one place I have'nt checked, and thats a good idea with speedometer, pretty much bullet proof of knowing when to change blades.
Hal

[Gary_B]

I spoke with Mike Alexander from TK and he suggested replacing the wheel belts, and suggested to replace like every 2 years or 300 hrs of use, the mill is 7 years old, so I think I had better replace them. Seems like Hal had been down the same road, appreciate all the information. I dont know what I would do if it wasnt for this site, saved me on a bunch of problems.

[isawlogs]

I think you may be experiencing two different issues that are combined. One , your belts may need replacing, two , if your bands are all of the same age and have about the same amount of resharp times, it could be that ytour bands are approaching there usefull life span.
  Hope you find whats causing you grief and let us all know  :P

[Gary_B]

Well I ordered two new belts this evening Goodyear b56, so soon as they come in I will put them on and double check everything, guide rollers, wheel alignment, etc. In the mean time I am going to try and order a few new blades, and that will tell the story.

[redbeard]

Gary I hope Mike filled you in on the tricks to changing the B-56 belts, I soak em in warm soapy water and have a assortment of well worn smooth flat head screw drivers, couple of C-clamps and another person is most helpful. They are tricky the first time you change em. It gets easier each time. I,ve tried all the belts the B-57 are loose and easy to put on but they have there issues more vibration and sawdust gets under them especially the drive side, I,ve also had good luck with the Orange neo-preme belts but there tough to get leveled out and trued up but once you do your mill is alot quieter and runs really smooth. But the Good year B-56 is the best belt for the TK mills I agree my saws last longer and the tracking stays true for along time.

[Gary_B]

Im sure the wheels will be well blessed by the time I get the belts on :D, looking at how tight they fit around the wheels, barely enough room to get a screw driving between the belt and the wheel. Mike said look on utube and he thinks theirs a clip of someone changing it out, he said the first one you do is going to be tough.

[Wrangler55]

The DVD I got with my new Timberking 1220 has a much better video on changing the belts. PM your address and I'll mail you a copy today.  They should put the entire DVD on youtube! I would have bought a mill much sooner if I'd seen the video they sent me.

Hal

[TLahti]

Hi All:
  I hope you don't mind me jumping in, but I have a small Generic push mill, and I bought it used with no info, and I can find nothing about it on the internet. It is called WoodWizard, made in California. I have used it about 100 hours, and have had some blade breakage, but I am using used blades I got with the mill, so they may be old.
   My question is about the drive belts on the band wheels. When I got it, the belts on the wheels were loose, like too big. You mean they should be a tight fit? Like they must be a stretch fit, so there is no play between the "V" and the belt?
   Thank you very much...
Terry

[Gary_B]

I know on my TK 1220 they are very tight fit.....so tight that yesterday when I was attemping to change one of the belts on my wheel, I was stretching the new one with a screwdriver and broke the new belt, I was trying to avoid trying to get the twist out of the belt before installing.... :(   As I was struggling with the belt I was thinking about Obama stating we need better education......all I thought about was we need a better design on these wheels..maybe our technology could inprove :D

[Tom]

Loose belts were used and are continuing to be used by Woodmizer, the industry leader of thin kerf band mills.  Tight V-belts are a "re-invention" by the public and a selling tool of other manufacturers who have used every opportunity at their disposal to try to unseat Woodmizer from their position of having created standards.

It's not that tight belts won't work and not that the looser belts won't work, it's that the looser belts do work and provide easier belt changes and maintenance.   If there is any one thing that tight V-belts do, it is to help prevent sawdust from getting beneath the belt and into the wheel groove where it can form a hard lump and cause the spinning wheel to be out of balance.   Those of us who have used the loose belts on the wheel will experience this problem from time to time, but find that its frequency isn't enough to warrant fighting the difficult changing of belts that a tight-belt system causes.

It's best to follow your manufacturer's recommendation first.  Then you can experiment with other things if you find that your manufacturer is full of bull.

[TLahti]

Thanks for the clarification, Tom. I never liked the loose belt concept. I will consider a tight belt the next belt change...
    Terry

[Kansas]

Everything Tom says is true, but I do want to add one thing. Tight belts last a lot longer than loose belts. We have done it both ways. We are back to the loose belts, just because its easier to put them on.

[Gary_B]

Do you think I could run a B57 instead of a B56 on a Tk 1220....if so I will give it a try,

[Peter Drouin]

Your right Tom loose belts work just fine. 8) 8)

[pineywoods]

This argument (loose versus tight belts on bandwheels) has been going on for years. Truth is, the loose belts just don't look right, but time has proven them to be a highly successful approach. My wm calls for B57 (loose) belts and they work just fine. I once put a B58 belt on the idler side. Talk about loose, but it worked just fine. If you have trouble with stuff getting under the belt, most likely have another problem that's causing it.

[Magicman]

I just replaced my B57's last week.  I looked back and they had sawed over 200mbf.  That's a lot of turning.  The idle wheel started making a rumbling noise.  Investigation showed that the belt had thinned, actually mashed flatter and stretched.  The band was not contacting the wheel, but was very close.

I had not realized how much the belts had stretched until I put new ones on.  Anyway, that took care of the noise.

[ladylake]

 1000 hours or so on a belt is good, it makes sence that loose belts can get junk under them once in a while , also that they  will wear faster with the belt going in and out of the groove all the time.  I'll stick with my B56 Goodyear belts and learn a few new words once in a while.   Steve

[Magicman]

The ones that I just replaced had been on the mill 1000 hours, which is remarkable.  In the past, I've had a broken band to slice a belt.

Since this thread is about breaking bands, I'll add that a badly worn belt allowing the band to contact the wheels, will break bands.

[Gary_B]

Well I finally replaced both belts on the wheels, replaced the guide bearings , went over everything as far as adjustments, had do alittle tweaking, I had to resaw a couple pieces of 2" lumber, seems to be cutting fine. Until the weather breaks and I can give her the real test we will see. Sometimes problems can be a bit of confusing, when you get  frustrated, but I guess when you step back and look at the way a manual band mill works its not that complicated, not alot of moving parts, but if the maintance is'nt  kept up, it comes back and bites you. When I was changing the guide bearings I also noticed one of the bearings had froze up, which could have lead to my problems. The new bearings I installed, I drilled a 1/16 hole in side of shield so I can shoot some grease in on a daily basis.
Thanks for everyones help.

[ladylake]

 Give us a report after you run a few new bands for a while, you might still be breaking the old ones as they might have been cracked already.   Steve

[Gary_B]

Well here is the latest update.....I replaced both belts....what a job that was...I cut down a hard maple over the weekend and wanted to see what it looked like on the inside, so I loaded it on the mill, I was using another older but sharp blade, made one past, flipped the log over, started on the second cut and bang, the blade both in two places and at the same time cut one of the belts on the wheel.... I ordered a box of new blades Saturday, bought another belt, after 3 hours, finally got it on, went down and checked the mill for anything that didnt look right, checked the new guide bearings, ran a string line from wheel to wheel that was perfect, I put another old band on just to see what it look like when I spun the wheel several times, looked perfect, when I get the new blades, I will give it a try and see what happens, the only thing left is the idle and drive bearings. I didnt know sawing could be so much fun.....

[Paper Maker]

   I run a TK B20 with solid steel wheels. Mine was doing the same thing. After I would make a cut is usually when the blade would break.After making a few adjustments I couldn't keep a blade on. I realize that they are different style wheels and the fix for the problem may not be the same. But after a machinest checked my wheels he found out that the drive wheel had a .025 runout. Thats not much. I don't know how it would affect a belt type wheel, but it may be something to look at. Good luck. 

[isawlogs]

 I am confident that dee new blades will solve your problem. Older blades that have been sharpened over time gets cracks in dee gullet of the tooth and even if you don't see them with your eye you may be able to see them on dee broken blades with a magnafying glass. Look at thee crack/break line and see if you can locate new /old crack.

[ladylake]

 i agree, try new blades as most of the old ones are cracked.   Steve

[Gary_B]

Thanks for all the confidence in the new blades we will see 8), maybe hindsight, when I picked the blades up from the amish fellow after he sharpened them said he was selling blades now, just let him know what size I need.
  One other thing ive noticed seems like I have a bit more saw dust built up in the wheel enclosure, like its not throwing the dust out...thinking maybe the blades might not have much set, and its more like a powder. The very little of cutting I have down the lumber is very smooth.

[ladylake]

 
Depends on what kind of logs your sawing, some sawdust sticks some doesn't.  With too little set there wont be much sawdust left on the log, the more set the more sawdust left on the log. Steve

[Gary_B]

New blades arrived today....tomorrow will be the test, I have assortment of logs to start sawing, the first will be some white ash, that should be a pretty test, followed by cherry, locust, popular, pine.

[isawlogs]

If I was having issues with my mill, I would not be using white ash as a test log.   ;)  If it is possible to work out, reverse the sawing order of your logs  :P

[ladylake]

May as well test on tough wood, you'll get the results quicker.   Steve

[Tom]

The results you get might not have anything to do with the mill, but rather the log.   One of the best ways to start solving a problem is to back yourself up to a point in history where the problem didn't exist, then go forward, changing and examining things one at a time.

One of the biggest problems people make, when they are trying to solve a problem, is to change a whole bunch of things at once.   If they get rid of the problem, they don't know what solved it.  If they don't get rid of the problem, they don't know if one of the fixes is causing it.

Problem solving has to be methodical.  Getting in a hurry and "shotgunning" the problem with assumed solutions will often just hide the problem in deeper and murkier water.

[Jerry]

You tell them Tom the older generation has already learned our lessons. Take it one step at a time is always the best solution.  :D :D :D :D :D

[ladylake]

 Those ash logs will have to be sawed sooner or later, if the mill works in them it should work in most wood. Far as breaking blades that can sneak up on you or hit like a hammer like when I got that bad batch, I broke 4 in 1/2 hour.  Steve

[Gary_B]

Tom I cannot agree with you more at this point, I think I did everything opposite of what you suggested :( First of all I really dont think the problem was in the v belt....due to no sign of wear on the wheels where the blade would be making contact...I tried it out today with a new ripper 37 blade, I sawed about 60 bd ft. of ash, and decided the log was'nt worthy of sawing, changed over to a cherry log and sawed around 80 bd ft of cherry, I didnt break a blade but still things dont seem right with my mill, On my TK 1220 I can observe the top of the blade as the mill is running, I can see the back side of the wheel it self so I was keeping and eye on that today and when the blade came in contact with a small knot I could see the blade flexing at the top, it looked like the teeth were dipping down atleast a 3/8 of a inch after leaving the drive side wheel. I increased the tension to see if that helped, no change I shut the mill down every other cut just to see how the blade was tracking on the wheels, they remained the same time after time, the lumber I cut today was perfect, no waves, no black marks but I still am not sure, I thinking something isnt right Im not sure if other mill owners can see the top part of there bands as there saw is running and if this is normal. I wish there was another 1220 mill close by. I noticed in another post someone was comparing a TK and Woodmizer mill and someone suggested maybe purchasing the one that is the closest, Im starting to think thats a good point in buying a mill. Its not like you can have a service tech come out and correct your problem when you are 800 miles away. Thank God for this forum.....

[red oaks lumber]

when i had a tk b20 changing belts i boiled water anb carried to mill put alittle soap in the groove. using tongs to get the belt of the water it slipped right on. hot water just wasnt hot enough. but,boiled made the job very easy.

[Gary_B]

Just wanted to let everyone know shes back and running again without broken bands.......I now think my main problem was the old bands..and I just added to the problem by incorrect adjustments, I listen to Tom and went back at it this morning with a bit of more patience  :P First thing I did was called TK and spoke with Mike and he gave me some suggestions to try. First thing realized my band was not riding on the proper location with the wheel, needed to align  the edge of band with the edge of wheel, and the drive side was out of plumb alittle, double checked everything and sawn about 300 bdft of cherry with no band snapping. 8)
  Thanks for everyones input, I really appreciate the advice
Gary

[isawlogs]

Your welcome.    Anytime you need an opnion, bygolly we will be honoured to dish it out  :P ;D

[Magicman]

Never under estimate the manufacturer's R&D that it has spent designing and building a sawmill.  Adjustments are for a purpose and so are the factory representatives and support that they give.