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Competition

Started by jph, December 29, 2009, 11:27:14 AM

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jph






I see Woodmizer uk are now offering a contract sawing  service.
I am far enough away from them  for it not to worry me, but I think if I had been closer, having bought my mill from them,
I would  see this as abit of unfair competition and be abit annoyed.
What do you think?

John



http://www.ecolotscms.a-i-s.co.uk/index.php/classifieds/advert/4-Services-&-Opportunities/10-Business-Services/15795-Contract-cutting

southpaw

Did the economy get them that they felt they needed to add to their business? Free enterprise at its best, competition is good thing it keeps everyone onest, does seem they have some advantages but there over head is probably higher. Do they seem to charge the same? Is thier custom sawing back logged? Is it a selling/ marketing idea to sell more saws? I do see see your point though, good luck.

Jeff

Wow, this seems like an interesting choice. I wonder how much thought and research went into deciding to do that.  I'm not saying its good or bad, because I don't know, it just seems there would be a whole multitude of ways to look at it, and knowing what the deciding factors to go ahead and do it were would be interesting.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Brad_S.

If true, that wouild seem to be a VERY bad business decision! I can't imagine how the income generated by a sawing business would be enough to offset the bad will garnered. I could understand if an employee had a side business but for WM themselves to undertake it? Bad idea!
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

jamesamd

The words "cut throats" just popped right into My Mind's Eye!

I doubt they will ever dare,that kind of underhandesness on this side of the Pond :-\

Jim
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

Cedarman

The ad is not even in good English.  Looks like something thrown together.  I would hope someone calls them up and asks them what the deal is. Just ask why are going into competition with your customers. 

I won't comment until I know the whole story for sure.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

woodman58

 If this is true, then I believe they will regrete it. I am in the flooring trade and several years ago Shaw Industries (the largest carpet manufacturer) bought the largest retail flooring chain in the USA. Within 6 months they sold all of the stores AT A LOSS. A large number of the stores they supplied had stopped buying from them.
I believe that WM will see a drop in sales if they do this.
i LOVE THE SMELL OF SAW DUST IN THE MORNING.
Timberking 2200

LOGDOG

Guys,

   The last time I checked WoodMizer has had a "wood products division" for years and years - at least as long as I've been doing business with them and that's 17 years gone by already. Up in Indianapolis they buy logs in, mill them, dry them, and turn them into any number of custom millwork products which are offered for sale. Now if I lived there, had a millwork shop, and wanted to be sore over it, I could say that they are competing with me to buy the same logs I am and are trying to sell to my same customer base. In fact, I'm pretty sure at least one of our members is a customer of WoodMizer, lives in close proximity to the headquarters where the mill and millwork shop are and is (or at least was the last time I checked) in the custom milling and millwork business. I've never seen him complain once about it. It's a big, big world out there. Plenty to go around. Even if WoodMizer opened sawing services at all of their locations it would still put the people in close proximity to me too far away from them to make it worthwhile for them to make the trip. I'm not the least bit worried about them taking food off my table. They're an awesome, honorable company that for the most part makes well thought out business decisions. I'd buy another mill from them in a heartbeat -even if they were in the milling business.

    I will say this though, I've noticed a few things that the UK has over there that I wish we had here. I dig that "power" roller toe board and the hold down clamp. Anyone know if they can be gotten here in the States?

FWIW ... you may also want to look around at some of the other mill manufacturers and their Regional Distribution Center Reps - most of them offer some sort of sawing service to the public as well. Never heard anyone cuss them. 

LOGDOG

Bibbyman

Wood-Mizer has always had and has some mills running.  A few years back we visited their facility in Madison, Kentucky where they were running two LT300s in full production sawing grade oak lumber.  They have always had some mill running at their Indianapolis headquarters. 

They have a wood products division where they make moldings and such.  So it's not a departure for Wood-Mizer to be in the sawing part of the sawmill business.   

http://www.woodproducts.org/

I may add,  Baker has a large pallet operation right behind their sawmill headquarters.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Brucer

If you want to make a top quality product, what better way to learn about it from the customer's perspective? And what better way to gain the know-how to help your customers with their sawing problems?


Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

customsawyer

I don't know if this includes portable milling or not. I do know that one of my best friends is also the one I compete with the most and it don't hurt us at all.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

junkhound

When ANY manufacturer takes ANY end user profit from ANY of thier customers, they have taken an unfair advantage of that customer. This is just my opinion and I have done business at the retail and wholesale level for 30 years. Everyone seems to be OK with this, (except the poor guy that is trying to pay for one of their mills just down the road) and will be until they move in down the road from you.





Dave Shepard

Seeing as how WM makes mills, kilns, moulders, etc. I'm not surprised that they are running them. Selling those products is a way to recoup some of that experimentation cost, thereby reducing the cost of the end product. ;)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

backwoods sawyer

I had the sawyer that I bought my mill sign a non compete agreement so that he would not run a mill with in 100 miles of my location. Are there other sawyers in that area? Quite a few, just not the sawyer that I bought my mill from. I work with all of the small mills that are with in 50 miles and we all not only compete with each other but also share each other's strong points. One mill has a Vacuum kiln, another has a store front, another has a 24" planer and a 36" belt sander, I am the only one that is 100% portable and seeking those hard to saw over sized logs, and I got a boom truck. Not to mention that there are close to 20 mills in the county that are producing 100,000 bft a shift, three are over 1,000,000 bft per day.
Competition is not always a bad thing when the competitors play by some basic ethical rules.   
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Tom

I've known woodmizer to have custom sawing operations and other wood processing operations since my involvement in 1990.  In my opinion, the "competition" is good.  There is more sawing out there for good and determined sawyers than there are sawmills and sawyers to handle it.  The sawing business increases dramatically when "someone" takes it upon their self to educate and market-to the public.  Woodmizer has kept on the bleeding edge of the industry by staying out in front of the public and studying their mill's performance against the opposition as well as the challenges of the industry.

Portable  sawmills are in their own little niche of the log-sawing industry.  What works for a big production mill doesn't necessarily work for a portable or transportable mill.  There are challenges as to towing, stability, alignment, maintenance performed in out of the way places, special blade tracking engineering, lubricants, as well as a multitude of other points that can only be learned by getting out there and doing it yourself, or copying someone and hope that they are right.

When I was attending my blade sharpening class in Newton Georgia, There was a Woodmizer employee preparing to go to a job in Atlanta that weekend.  I don't know if it was his mill or the companies.  I don't know if the money went to him or Woodmizer.  But, he did have to report on everything he did and how the mill performed.

I found, in my meager little business, that I got busier as more mills were added in the area. Why?  I think it was because more people heard about sawing and wanted it done.  When these other operations would give up, I would be so overloaded for 6-8 months that it would almost make me sick.

I'm not talking about the cut-throat warfare that most people think of as competition.  I'm talking about there being enough mills out there selling that more customers are reached.   If I had a manufacturer in my county, I would welcome his involvement.   It would not only mean more work but better equipment.  As much as we would like to believe that manufacturers listen to our every breath, it isn't true.  The truly good and competitive mills are produced by companies that go out there in the front lines, making their mills do what we, the customer, expect a mill to do; proving that it can do it day after day after day, for years on end.

Until there is an operational mill in every garage, I wouldn't worry a bit about manufacturer involvement.   Why, Woodmizer's operations manual even has information on how to run a sawing business.  Where do you think they learned that?

Your competition isn't going to come from the manufacturer.  It isn't going to come from the man with the new mill that undercuts prices to get customers.  It isn't going to come from the man who is BSing about his sawing knowledge.  Real competition is going to come from the man who has his finances in order, charges based on what he and his business needs to make an honest profit, and who possesses the best attitude, customer service, friendly operation, producing a quality product with the customer's success in mind and who is willing to work harder, longer and over a greater distance than any other mill owner.

The first man out there has the advantage.  He can pay off his equipment and be working toward a replacement while the laggards are fighting through new-mill financing.  He can work cheaper because he has longevity and a bank account to buffer him.

So, if you want to compete, don't worry about the other folks.  Get out there and be the fastest and the best; be there the f'ustest with the mostest.  It'll be a long time before you run out of customers.

Cedarman

My understanding that WM is sawing because they do it for testing purposes.  What better way to test blades than to run them in controlled conditions.  What better way to test new mill designs than to run them under controlled conditions.  They do not do portable custom work that I know of.  IMHO their sawing is a very legitimate and is for our benefit in the long run.  That is here in the US.
What say you east of the pond?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Jeff

QuoteWhat better way to test blades than to run them in controlled conditions.  What better way to test new mill designs than to run them under controlled conditions.

I say in an uncontrolled condition. And that would be in the field. That's where you find the things out that a controlled environment can't replicate. Real world is where the real and unexpected stuff happens.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Chris Burchfield

I may not have seen it but, their site did not show the dealerships across the country the way it does down here. Then again, it may be that there is not a mill in this part of the country. The unit shown is mobile. Could be taken to a potential customer's place if the customer could not come to them to evaluate the product on site.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

Cedarman

By controlled, I mean they can saw and change one variable at a time and see what happens.  Such as saw at diffenent tensions, amount of set back for rollers, different blade tilt, log species etc. This is where they test the different tooth angles and blade thickness, I believe. All they have to do is to go out back to the mill and get to work.  Once they get their info, they can pass it on to the customers and then listen for feedback.
I call what they are doing R&D.  I am sure they find lots of things not to do too.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

LeeB

I recon if what they are doing is wrong then car salesmen should ride horses to work?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

jph

I have no problem with WM contract sawing as I am far enough away. My mill stays in our woods and cuts mainly spruce and larch. Occasionally I am lucky and buy in a large Welsh oak. I suspect Woodmizer are not selling many mills at the moment, not only due to the general economy but because we havn't had strong winds to  here to  cause any windblow. It is very difficult here to make a living by contract sawing, there just aren't the logs available. Some of the very large estates would have a policy of harvesting hardwood, but most of the small woodland owners would only  do a bit of thinning,  they  would not fell any of their larger trees. Most of the hardwood that I mill  comes from  hedgerow trees that have died for one reason or another.
I have owned my mill for 4 years now and have done virtually no sawing for anyone else, mind you I have not advertised. I either saw our own logs ,buy in or  saw for half the timber. I would say I am not much more than a hobby sawyer.
However if I had been closer to the WM dealership and didn't have my own trees , I think the fact that WM were offering  a contract sawing service with the very latest mill would certainly make me think twice before investing.

T Red

I have read with interest this thread.  I'm very surprised by the responses.

I relate this to my business.  If 84 Lumber (where I purchase building materials from) decided to start building houses in my area then they would loose my business completely. 

Yes competition is good.  But I refuse to give my hard earned money to a company that can use that same money to take business from me. 

Kinda like biting the hand that feeds you.  Not good.

Tim

Kansas

I think there is a fine line you have to walk. We build some skids and boxes and a very few pallets most of which have to be heat treated. They are mostly very large and specialized, all custom sizes, and the nearest other heat treatment chamber is 90 miles away.  We build and treat those in house. Anytime someone calls and wants normal pallets, I pass that on to one of our pallet company customers. I don't want to compete with them building pallets. Its good that Woodmizer  cuts lumber-they have to just to test and understand their equipment. And they have to do something with that lumber.  That being said, custom cutting is starting to push it.

ARKANSAWYER

  I do not know about the UK but here you call WoodMizer and they will find a sawyer close to you.  So they in fact help you get customers.  I can also see where someone will bring in some logs and get the bug and buy a mill.  I just don't see them running a mill just to put you are any one else  out of business.   Also a large part of the mills they sell are to people who saw very little and are not in the business of sawmilling.
 I let WM come to my mill site last Spring  and do a show here and sell mills.  One of the men who bought a LT15 brings me logs that are to large for him to mess with.  So I gained a customer.  Matter of fact I got alot of business from them selling mills right here in the yard.
ARKANSAWYER

beenthere

Quote from: T Red on December 30, 2009, 01:36:02 PM
....I relate this to my business.  If 84 Lumber (where I purchase building materials from) decided to start building houses in my area then they would loose my business completely.  ......

Not a good analogy of what I see WM might be doing. IMO  :)

WM makes a machine to do a job. To have trained people on the sales staff and mechanics that know the machine, seems they would want them to do some log sawing to learn the many different things that can be encountered. But buying logs for sawing and not using the lumber from those logs, would seem wasteful and counter-productive. Offering a custom service to saw up logs for the practice of sawing just makes good sense (to me, and prolly sells these customers on some mills like Arky suggests).   Now, this is the way I am reading what WM is doing. So just an observation.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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