Helper on the sawmill ?

[MWS]

    Ha guys what do you do for helpers on the sawmill as far as liability?

[riverswamp sawyer]

I run a one man show............till my wife gets home from work Then its she and me
She complains some but has not sued me yet..... ;D

[riverswamp sawyer]

And let me add......
She is pretty good help.......... AND a good cook !! ;D

[pigman]

I tell them that if they get blood on my mill to wipe it off quick so it won't stain the paint.

[terrifictimbersllc]

    Ha guys what do you do for helpers on the sawmill as far as liability?

helpers have enough liability of their own not necessary to add to it 

[Chuck White]

I don't know, but I would suppose you could get liability insurance to cover them, OR if they had their own insurance, you could cover yourself by having them sign a contract which would let you off the hook, MAYBE!

Probably the best suggestion I could offer would be to supervise the helper closely and keep him out of potentially dangerous areas around the mill!

[terrifictimbersllc]

Sorry, seriously, what is your milling situation, portable on customer's property, or are you on your property, and is the helper your customer or not?

[Magicman]

The last paragraph on my Saw Contract that is always signed by both Me and the Customer.  We each get a copy:


5.  It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous.  Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber.  It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties.  Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___

Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________ 

[MWS]

Sorry, seriously, what is your milling situation, portable on customer's property, or are you on your property, and is the helper your customer or not?

WELL MOST OF THE TIME I AM AT MY HOME BUT SOME PORTABLE WORK DOSE GAT DONE.  THE HELPER COULD BE ETHER THE CUSTOMER OR JUST A HELPER.

[Brian_Rhoad]

If you are getting paid for the sawing the "helper" is an employee and all employee regulations apply.

[isawlogs]

If you are getting paid for the sawing the "helper" is an employee and all employee regulations apply.

And how did this come to be so ???  Are you stating that when ever one is paid to do work the helper is always concidered an employee....  If that is the case, I am sure glad to be where I am to not have to deal with this, over and above the rest of the hogwash that needs be delt with.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Sorry, seriously, what is your milling situation, portable on customer's property, or are you on your property, and is the helper your customer or not?

WELL MOST OF THE TIME I AM AT MY HOME BUT SOME PORTABLE WORK DOSE GAT DONE.  THE HELPER COULD BE ETHER THE CUSTOMER OR JUST A HELPER.

I use an agreement that reads almost exactly as Magicman provided above, pertaining to the customer and his helpers if any.  I also have liability insurance which I believe will cover my business should the customer or his helper get hurt.  I do not have my own helpers, I would regard that relationship as if my helper were my employee, and I have not yet purchased insurance to cover employees.   My insurance rate would be almost double if I had one or more employees.  The insurance I have does not cover injury to me.  That would be under my own medical insurance. Pretty sure if I covered one or more employees under my liability policy then that would provide payments for injury to them as well as cover the consequences of their actions when in my employ.     I guess I would recommend absolutely that you don't allow helpers on your behalf if they don't have their own medical insurance.  And second that you make sure you are insured for their injury as well as for their actions while helping you for which you may be held responsible.  In my case I relied on discussion with a very helpful independent insurance agent.

[Jeff]

If you are getting paid for the sawing the "helper" is an employee and all employee regulations apply.

I don't think so. Depends on who is supplying the helper.

[WH_Conley]

The helper would be the employee of whoever was paying him.

[sigidi]

My point of view on it is if you are paying the helper, then he/she becomes an employee, admittedly I'm down under and it's not a 'legal' standpoint but just my views

[Magicman]

My situation is very simple.  I do not provide help, paid or otherwise.  It's the customer's responsibility to either do it himself or provide help.  That fact coupled with my signed contract, I'm just really not worried about it.

[sigidi]

Magic we don't tend to have 'contracts' down here, just good old fashioned handshakes lookin a fella in the eye. Although much the same on everythin else, I operate myself if the customer helps it's up to him, if customer has someone help it's up to then. I warn them of issues they may come across, but leave it at that  ;)

[Brian_Rhoad]

I asked an insurance agent, an accountant and a federal auditor and they all gave me the same answer. If you are getting paid to do a job, anyone who helps you is to be treated as an employee. They can be a subcontrator, but you better have paperwork to prove it.

I don't know why people think sawmilling is different than other jobs. Can you "help" the mechanic repair your car? Does the plumber let you "help" repair a leaky pipe?

[Jeff]

They are all wrong then.  Case in point. Ron Wenrich is a contracted sawyer for the mill at which he now saws.  What they are saying is that all of the guys working around Ron loading logs and stacking lumber are his employee's?  Bull Puckey.   Clearly you are asking people that don't know what they are talking about.

If I take my mill to Joe Land Owner, and he provides man power to swamp lumber, that help is working for Joe Land Owner, not for me.

I don't know why people think sawmilling is different than other jobs. Can you "help" the mechanic repair your car? Does the plumber let you "help" repair a leaky pipe?

Both professions you quote are regulated and state licensing is required. Not applicable.

[Magicman]

In 2002, when I formed an LLC for my company, I showed my attorney my contract.  He read it and stated that when my customer signed that, I had no legal worries.  He put a copy of it in my file that he retains.  He did suggest that I always have it signed, no matter who the customer was.  That establishes a legal pattern.

Sigidi, I understand a handshake and mine is my bond.  I also understand that when money or a possible injury is involved, some folks may have selective memory.

The contract also serves as a checklist to be sure that the customer understands and I don't forget to cover all of the sawing and billing details.  Business is business.

[Brian_Rhoad]

I'm only repeating what I was told by 3 people who should know what the rules are.

As far as Ron, I think he would be a subcontractor and the guys helping him work for the company Ron is subcontracted to.

Mechanics here in PA don't need a license to repair a vehicle. They need a State Inspectrion License to inspect a vehicle but not to repair it.

Plumbers were'nt required to have a license until about 2 years ago. I think the company needs to be registered but the individual worker does not need a license.

I asked if I don't pay a helper,(the owner of the logs) if that makes any difference. I was told that as long as I was getting paid to do the job the helper was an employee unless there was paperwork to show them as a subcontractor.

I asked how I would figure out the deductions and other paperwork if I don't pay the helper. I was told to use the hours worked times at least the minimum wage at the time. It didn't matter that I didn't pay the helper, the government stilll wanted their money.

[weisyboy]

in australia if you employ someone you have to have "workers compensation insurance" witch in QLD is run by the government.

im just sorting my stuff otu now. for sawmilling/logging it is about 6% of wages.

i am not covered by my workers compensation because im self employed, and i have public liability insurace to cover everyone else around the place

[pnyberg]

I just had a short conversation with my wife on this subject.  She's worked for the Connecticut Labor Department for 35 years.  Her response was that if there was no payment, there was no condition of employment.  

Beyond that, there are clearly situations where there is payment without creating a condition of employment.  When I hire a plumber or electrician or landscaper to do work around my house, they do not become my employees even though I pay them.  Licensing has nothing to do with it.

I can't say that I've ever helped my car mechanic.  But I have helped a plumber, and the guy who installed my kitchen counter tops.  The idea that this made me their employee seems pretty dubious.  I never got a W2 from either.

But, I think this is all quite beside the point on the question of liability.  If someone gets injured near your sawmill, and there's a lawyer within 1000 miles, the question of liability is likely to come up.  Details about whether or not the injured party should or should not be considered an employee is likely to be a minor part of this discussion.

I am not a lawyer.

--Peter

[Jeff]

Brian_Rhoad, The people you asked are idiots.   A sub contractor is one step down from contractor.  These guys need to go back to school.

When a land owner hires a mill and a sawyer, the sawyer is contracted labor and the sawmill a tool of his trade. They are not subcontracted. Subcontracted is when the contracted labor then hires under him. If he supplies the helper, then they are under his employ, if the landowner supplies the help, then they are under his employ. Equal to that of the sawyer and his mill, not underneath.

[Jeff]

I want to add as well, I am not saying that if someone gets hurt around the sawmill, that there may not be a liability issue in some form or other. That's not what I am addressing. I'm disputing the point made that the helpers ARE the sawyers employees in every case. Not so, no way.

[Brian_Rhoad]

Jeff, I agree with what you are saying. If someone hires me to saw up their logs that makes me a "contractor". If they provide a helper there needs to be some way to prove who is working for who. That can and should be spelled out in a contract. I'm only repeating what I was told when I asked the questions. The federal auditor asked her supervisor and showed me the rules in a book about 4" thick.

As far as the subcontractor part. If it is not in writing as to the log owner not being an employee they are considered to be an employee to the IRS because they are helping you do a job you are getting paid to do.

These questions came up during a federal audit over 15 years ago. I was told and shown some other rules that most people would say are crazy and disagree with also.

The insurance agent said the problems usually are when someone is injured and their insurance company starts asking questions. If or when they find out that the injury occured at a sawmill they want the sawmill owner to pay the bill.

[Brucer]

My sawmill insurance covers me for liability. However, there's a clause that says that anyone who runs the sawmill itself (besides me) must be an employee and must be covered by Worker's Compensation.

My part-time help doesn't run the sawmill and she's a contractor, not an employee. All the paperwork is in order to make sure she meets the tax department's criteria.

Rules will vary state-by-state, province-by-province, and country-by-country. In my case the insurance company has the final say.

[Chuck White]

Brian;
That would be covered in the last paragraph in the standard sawyers contract!

That is what MagicMan is showing us in his post.

[Peter Drouin]

Will some one put up a (standard sawyers contract) thanks

[Norm]

Each state handles the liability issue according to their rules of law. I would do as MM and spend the money on a lawyer to find out what yours are.

Labor laws have gotten so convoluted I gave up trying to understand them.

[Jeff]

Magicman has posted his contract in the past.

In another thread I mentioned that I always sign and have the customer sign a contract before any work is done.  I designed my contract to be torn in half so that each of us get's a copy:


THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________  and
Sawyer:  KNOTHOLE  SAWMILL, LLC,   with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:

1.  Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at:  Customer's Site  or  Sawyer's Site  for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut.  Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume.  (Note,  Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer).  A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1".   Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie:  0-1"= 1",  1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc.  Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.

2.  In addition to above,  Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer.  Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move.  In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.

3.  Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber.  All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.

4.  Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________

5.  It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous.  Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber.  It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties.  Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___

Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________ 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________  and
Sawyer:  KNOTHOLE  SAWMILL, LLC,   with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:

1.  Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at:  Customer's Site  or  Sawyer's Site  for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut.  Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume.  (Note,  Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer).  A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1".   Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie:  0-1"= 1",  1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc.  Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.

2.  In addition to above,  Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer.  Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move.  In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.

3.  Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber.  All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.

4.  Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________

5.  It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous.  Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber.  It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties.  Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___

Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________


This is just what I use.  You can re-design and customize it to fit your needs.

[red oaks lumber]

if you own the mill you are self employed, hired to provide a service to the log owner wheather it's cheaper for him to help or not doesn't make him an employee.
far as contracts go they are only as legal as the paper their written on.atleast in wisconsin any way.

[Larry]

It's all roses until somebody gets hurt.  Than the injured party has medical bills, or perhaps smells blood money and hires a lawyer.  Win, loose, or draw its gonna cost the sawyer.  Maybe not big bucks if he is lucky, but lost sleep, time, and aggravation. :( :(

My helpers name are Mr. Dragback, and Mr. Ford.  They rely on Mr. Rollers for a good time. ;D  None of us like travel so were all stay at home types...but we do work well together.

[paul case]

i actually shut the mill off when someone comes in the door just for this reason. i can off bear just fine. if i had help they would probably get me hurt(thats my story and i am sticking to it)so even if my son shows up wanting to help i fix him up with cutting boards to length or splitting wood. oh yeah, when someone is watching me i tend to make more oopses. pc

[sgschwend]

The following is my understanding, so here is my 2 cents worth.
I hope this helps, certainly each state can set their own labor rules and they do.   

In Washington State I can hire a subcontractor to help me at the mill. 

Because the helper is a sub, I do not need LNI insurance or any of the other employee like services. 

The helper would need to meet Washington State's sub contractor requirements; the two main sticking points are the purchase of a $35 license and the ability to demonstrate that the sub has more than one client (not just me). The sub being self employed will likely avoid all of the pitfalls I would have had as the employer.

At the end of the year I would be required to send this sub-contractor a 1099 if the annual payment exceeded $600.

[Ianab]

Another thing to consider is that different agencies will see things from a different points of view.

Inland revenue want to know what $$ is changing hands so they can get their cut of it.

OSH want to try and keep you safe, even from yourself. Who is paying or working for who doesn't concern them, your mill and someone gets hurt you might have an issue.

Insurance Companies want to know is going to pay if something goes wrong. They will try and insure it's someone other than them....

So you need to consider it from all those points of view, and probably some I haven't considered, and make sure your butt is at least semi-covered.

Having a contract does help, but it wont contract you out of legal obligations. Like if you remove a guard from the mill and a broken band pokes some ones eye out you may be in trouble, from OSHA. Even if you warned them of the danger, and some ones insurance is going to pay.

[ely]

larry is correct ,IMO. i dont feel like any of this matters until someone gets hurt, then you may get to find out what that piece of paper is worth or not worth. as the case may be.

to me its like the paper that you sign when you go to some sporting event like a truck pull or mud bog. all is good and well until that blower belt wraps around some poor saps head and they  get a lawyer. :D

[Magicman]

I won't be caught putting my head in the sand and at least trying to minimize any possible legal action.  Contracts will not prevent accidents, and I will not defend mine or my choice to have one.  That's my decision and my attorney and my insurance carrier approve of it.

Jeff re-posted my contract because several members asked to see it and I had previously posted it.  It was for their benefit and not intended to be judged by those that choose to  handle their business decisions differently. 

[AvT]

Woodmizer provided me with a pad when I bought my mill. one side is a custom cutting tally sheet and the other side has a contract on it that looks very much like MMs contract.  It looks like MM made quite a few changes to cover his situation.  one can probably order the woodmizer contract pad from woodmizer Part# C12343/Form# 260/ 9/03.
I'm pretty sure woodmizer thought out the wording pretty carefully.  I was reading somthing the other day that they were sued for somthing like half a million because of an injury.  I checked into liabilty insurance for a sawmill operation after I bought my mill.  I'm still in shock at the cost of it.

[beenthere]

MM
Good comments, and any form of a contract spelling out responsibilities is many times better than none at all.

Lawyers are our #1 problem. Whether there is written info, nothing written, or written by another lawyer...they will still find plenty to spend their time debating an issue just to get paid for their time (and then some).

[Kansas]

We don't want customers helping us. we have one tree service that brings in logs to have custom sawn. Even though we have phased out our custom sawing, we still do some stuff for him. But I know he runs legal and if one of his workers gets hurt, its covered by workers comp.

Remember that workers comp also protects the employer. Unless there is gross negligence, which is hard to prove, you can't be sued by an employee. Maybe its just me, but it seems like I shy away from signed contracts. I always figure if you have to sign a contract, then that means you don't trust the person you are doing work for. I realize there are exceptions. But if I have a customer I feel like might be a problem, and I need a contract, then I would prefer to walk away from the deal. Contracts mean rich lawyers. Again, this is just me and my personal feelings. When you are in business, you get to choose how to conduct said business. That is the way we do it. Doesn't mean its right. Just means that is the way we want to do it.

Plus, if lawyers get involved, it means I can't go and collect or take care of business myself. By whatever methods I deem necessary. Lawyers take the fun away.

[band-it lumber]

don't ask don't tell that's how i roll :D

[Brucer]

... I checked into liabilty insurance for a sawmill operation after I bought my mill.  I'm still in shock at the cost of it.

Go to your friendly local insurance agent. Tell them to contact Underwriting Contract Administrators Inc., and ask about the Woodchuck program. Your agent gets a commission for handling the policy.

I have $2,000,000 liability and $1,000,000 personal injury. The sawmill is covered for its new value for the first 3 years -- after that it's covered for its depreciated value.

[Coon]

Brucer, if you don't mind me asking... What does that policy cost you for the year? Does the policy cover all of your handling equipment and such?

[Brucer]

$1320 last year.

That's for a 4 year old LT40HDG28, 2 - 6' bed extensions, a 7 year old twin blade edger, and a few options I added to the mill.

A good chunk of the fee is for liability insurance -- probably $800 - $1000 (it's not spelled out). The rest depends on the declared value of the equipment.

For the owner of a new mill, for the first 3 years you get insured for replacement cost on the mill, which is a pretty good deal.

It doesn't cover you for traffic damage while towing. In BC it's supposed to be licensed so the regular highway insurance covers it for that.

You can ask them for a brochure.

[Coon]

Thanks for the info.  I'll be checking into it once I purchase a mill this spring. I can live with rates like that.  I talked to one insurance company briefly and he was talking like 2-3 thousand for 1 million liability and prorated coverage on the mill according to it's age and hours. 

Brad.

[Brucer]

The "Woodchuck" program is good anywhere in Canada. It was developed in Atlantic Canada specifically for portable mills. Here's a link.

[LorenB]

to me its like the paper that you sign when you go to some sporting event like a truck pull or mud bog. all is good and well until that blower belt wraps around some poor saps head and they  get a lawyer. :D

ely,

Funny you should mention that one.  Years ago I went to a tractor pull at an indoor arena.  During the competition one of the engines blew up and a piece the size of a softball whizzed over everyone's heads and broke the glass in the box behind us.  It missed me by a few feet.  I estimate it was traveling at about 200 mph, much faster than a baseball pitch. 

Fortunately it missed the fifty or so people who were all just below it and didn't even hit anyone in the box, so no lawyers got involved (I assume).  Even so, I haven't been to a tractor pull since. 

– Loren

[mayor]

Milling is old school and thats the way we like it...however......if you give the boy down the street 20 bucks too offbear slabs for you this evening and he gets hurt......your liable fincancially.
If he shows up and starts offbearing slabs on his own and gets hurt.......then it reverts back too the homeowners insurance or whoever owns the property the mill is sitting on.

If you pay him in any way though......unless he has a legitimate business of his own and produces a 1099 form too you and proof of business insuance on his part.......then you are liable for any accidents.

A good way too do it is too open two businesses....one is a rental business that only owns everything and it rents the mill too the other business which owns nothing.....both are insured but the payment too employees comes from the one which owns nothing.
If a major lawsuit takes place......there's nothing too benefit from a business that owns nothing.  However.....different states have different laws concerning this and one needs too talk with a cpa or lawyer about opening the business.

Another thing is the fact that too keep everyone legal....you will be paying insurance, franchise license, contractor licenses where applicable, unemployment compenstaion, workers compensations, state and federal taxes, business and occupation taxes, and then comes the equipment.......running fuel stickers on the trucks, stopping at all the weight stations, apportioned plates, business insurances, etc. .
Now then....on top of that comes osha....with the logging industry being one of the most dangerous of all industries..some states are incoporating osha standards into all milling operations....so that means your guys have too have osha cards which you have too pay the training for.  Lets not forget the EPA.....yeah...those guys...there comes acid runoff from the sawdust,  standard logging practises,  reclamation of all logging roads and lands. 
It could go on and on for a legal milling operation.
Another thing most folks dont realize is "crane operation".....if you have a boom truck or a log loader.....it will be law very soon and already is in most states that you carry a crane license on you too run the cranes. 

What has happened too this world?.........its crazy.

[isawlogs]

and then some are asking themselves where your economy has gone !!!!   :

[terrifictimbersllc]

What has happened too this world?.........its crazy.

All of this seems to stem from denial that life has ups and downs and one is not going to live forever.

[ely]

i refer to the blower drive belt out of an experience that i had when i was 19 20 ish, kenny beirnstiens dragster disenegrated about mid run and his belt did hit someone in the stands. they hauled them out in an ambulance.

BTW kenny still went thru the lights in what was left of his engine and cage , on fire, backwards, at 203 mph.