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simple automation to remove labor

Started by nativewolf, July 12, 2019, 07:24:46 AM

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nativewolf

Quote from: longtime lurker on July 14, 2019, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on July 14, 2019, 07:57:37 AM
Thanks Ron, very good explanation and after making decisions and getting trials done we'll make a home for it.  Getting a proper home for the mill is going to take some doing, I'm going to see about leasing 2 acres that is just sitting.  If they would give it to me for 10 years that would be awesome.  
My eyes are bleeding reading that. I tell ya a story:
I leased this place for 7 years, then got the boot in 2016 because the owner had (unrelated) financial difficulties and the bank wanted it vacant for sale because it was security for the other stuff.
At that point I had a good collection of toys (pretty much owned the lot outright thankfully) and was really starting to get some momentum up. Finding another place to set up was tough, and I end up in a cow paddock with the Lucas Mill again, only trying to punch tonnage like I had a lot more mill. And I've got  stock and equipment mothballed in sheds for 50 mile around, just holding it in the hope of finding something suitable at the right price. I can find plenty of storage but places I can operate from are not so easy, even to rent.
After 18 months the bank realises it's not going to be so easy to sell due to local economic conditions, so I wind up back here on a month by month arrangement. At least I've got a roof over my head and room to do what i need Start getting my feet under me again and just about get back on my feet and my largest customer files for bankruptcy. I'm not out much at all because he made sure I wasn't... but it punches a mammoth hole in my cashflow and down I go to the bottom again. I hold the lease but Im off playing loggers again to cover it.
I'm just getting over that now and starting to win again, and looks like I have to buy the joint or someone else will. And I'm not ready after the last couple of years but somehow I'll manage it, or buy part which will get the bank shut up and I can lease the other part until I get the mortgage under control on the one piece, then buy the other part.
In ten years here I've pumped a fair bit of $ in. I've basically covered interest and taxes on the joint as though I owned it. And I did a lot of work.... fixed storm damaged roofs, laid a lot of gravel to expand the hardstand into an all weather log yard, electrical upgrades, drainage etcetera etcetera etcetera. No big $ in the improvements individually but it adds up. And now, after paying for those things once, I'm going to have to buy them again.
I know its hard, but you need to find a way to own your ground sooner rather than later. Or at least have an option to purchase at a set price in your contract.  We're all at the mercy of markets, customers, weather and a whole heap of things we cant really control in business; try not to add landlord to the list of risks you face. Bank or Owner, they both want to be paid and at least one way you can borrow against it. My business "assets" comprise logs, lumber, and equipment to turn logs into lumber, it'd look a whole lot nicer with the premises I need to park all that stuff on the balance sheet.
I've worked an 80 hour week for the last three years to keep my head above water with not a lot to show for it, my disposable income looks like a case of beer and a tin of tobacco a week. Had I owned the place I would have worked just as hard with not much different result, except that I'd not be having to find a deposit now at a time not of my choosing.
I wouldnt wish the last few years of my life on anyone.
We all enjoy the post from Down Under and wish you the best of success figuring out the mill side of it.  I've started 4 businesses, 2 went under in market crashes 1 sold in great success, one wrapped up with no profit but paid nice salary every month.  If a bank is in a tough spot...push hard.  Make them finance you, etc.  
Liking Walnut

moodnacreek

L.L. Too bad we have an immigration problem here.   From your description of yourself you have struggled and continue to work hard.  In my eyes this is the recipe to become a wise man. We need you here in the USA.

moodnacreek

Y. Hammer, You are going to force me to learn to post photos. For years, after work, I worked on my [2nd] sawmill set up until I dropped. Therefore I never took the time to learn gadgets like cell phones and digital cameras etc.  Anyhow straight line conveyers have to load green chains remote control or automatic. You don't walk down there until you have to. There are many ways this can be done. A lot depends on the lumber having to l/h, r/h or both ways. With me the sawn boards go left off the kicker table down into mounted loader arms that when full lift and dump onto the green chain but the same kicker table can kick right on to the slab drag [another green chain]. The boards needing to be edged have been spiral rolled onto the floor that is a trap door scissors lift under the floor. The edger has a sweep bar to small green chain. I have no experience with W.M. style band sawmills other than watching people change bands constantly so I can't see how you drop the board/slab on the first conveyer but there must be a way.

Percy



 

 
Quote from: longtime lurker on July 14, 2019, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on July 14, 2019, 07:57:37 AM
Thanks Ron, very good explanation and after making decisions and getting trials done we'll make a home for it.  Getting a proper home for the mill is going to take some doing, I'm going to see about leasing 2 acres that is just sitting.  If they would give it to me for 10 years that would be awesome.  
My eyes are bleeding reading that. I tell ya a story:
I leased this place for 7 years, then got the boot in 2016 because the owner had (unrelated) financial difficulties and the bank wanted it vacant for sale because it was security for the other stuff.
At that point I had a good collection of toys (pretty much owned the lot outright thankfully) and was really starting to get some momentum up. Finding another place to set up was tough, and I end up in a cow paddock with the Lucas Mill again, only trying to punch tonnage like I had a lot more mill. And I've got  stock and equipment mothballed in sheds for 50 mile around, just holding it in the hope of finding something suitable at the right price. I can find plenty of storage but places I can operate from are not so easy, even to rent.
After 18 months the bank realises it's not going to be so easy to sell due to local economic conditions, so I wind up back here on a month by month arrangement. At least I've got a roof over my head and room to do what i need Start getting my feet under me again and just about get back on my feet and my largest customer files for bankruptcy. I'm not out much at all because he made sure I wasn't... but it punches a mammoth hole in my cashflow and down I go to the bottom again. I hold the lease but Im off playing loggers again to cover it.
I'm just getting over that now and starting to win again, and looks like I have to buy the joint or someone else will. And I'm not ready after the last couple of years but somehow I'll manage it, or buy part which will get the bank shut up and I can lease the other part until I get the mortgage under control on the one piece, then buy the other part.
In ten years here I've pumped a fair bit of $ in. I've basically covered interest and taxes on the joint as though I owned it. And I did a lot of work.... fixed storm damaged roofs, laid a lot of gravel to expand the hardstand into an all weather log yard, electrical upgrades, drainage etcetera etcetera etcetera. No big $ in the improvements individually but it adds up. And now, after paying for those things once, I'm going to have to buy them again.
I know its hard, but you need to find a way to own your ground sooner rather than later. Or at least have an option to purchase at a set price in your contract.  We're all at the mercy of markets, customers, weather and a whole heap of things we cant really control in business; try not to add landlord to the list of risks you face. Bank or Owner, they both want to be paid and at least one way you can borrow against it. My business "assets" comprise logs, lumber, and equipment to turn logs into lumber, it'd look a whole lot nicer with the premises I need to park all that stuff on the balance sheet.
I've worked an 80 hour week for the last three years to keep my head above water with not a lot to show for it, my disposable income looks like a case of beer and a tin of tobacco a week. Had I owned the place I would have worked just as hard with not much different result, except that I'd not be having to find a deposit now at a time not of my choosing.
I wouldnt wish the last few years of my life on anyone.

I couldn't warm up to a banker if we were being creamated together.....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

stavebuyer

Problem with any "one product" such as fence boards is that all your low and mid grade logs won't be 16' long, all your boards from  your 16' logs won't be 16' long and neither will all the boards be 6" wide without a large amount of waste. The existing mills that can't give away low grade red oak lumber already know this or would be begging for 16' oak logs to saw and paying a premium for them. You can do well sawing fence boards out of the logs that will yield them but you better have a plan for the overall log or the yield loss will eat you alive.

Automation definitely. Baker and Wood-Mizer both have turn key solutions that will turn out 6-10k feet a day but you will need a chipper and possibly a de-barker as well as a dedicated truck and markets for the trailer load of waste you will generate daily. Think labor is getting tough: try hunting up a reliable CDL driver.

nativewolf

@stavebuyer good to hear from you.  After that barrel storage fire I guess you'll be busy  :D.

Right now if I can't get a 16' log it will likely stay in the woods, just no profitable market.  Lots of biomass will just stay put.  If I can get a 20+ I may saw bridge timbers.  Maybe.  

Waste will be epic  :D, I agree with that but therefore the mulcher.  I can do barn siding and may do some of that which would let me do 3" batten.  

Liking Walnut

longtime lurker

 Operating fixed I've always worked with a greenchain on the outfeed side. Main thing being not to overload it when sawing by yourself so you have room to jog forward or reverse it to get things into the right stack without any more than pulling them off the side. Every time I overload it and end up lifting lumber over other lumber for want of room I say never again but I do it to myself all the time.

I've often wondered about a carousel. Takes up some space but theres no real walking involved - just stand in one place and deal with what the greenchain brings you next. You could I think pretty much shoehorn it into a "corner", in that you really only need to access it from where you're stacking, and on another side with the forklift to pull the stacks off.  Expensive once, but probably efficient is my guess.

Alpine Lumber Carousel - YouTube
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Ron Wenrich

Although it looks efficient, my guess is that it's not.  When I sawed hardwood grade, we would have a lot of sorts.  Generally we had one buyer that took 2 Com & btr, which had to be separated by length.  We also had a casket grade that got sorted out.  For the low grade, we had 1x4 and 1x6 boards that got separated by length.  The blocking was mainly a 3½x6 separated by length and ties.  Then there were the occasional small orders.  Seems you would have to advance the carousel a lot, depending on your log.  By the time the carousel comes to the right bin, you could have the board stacked, and maybe 2 or 3.

We used both sides of our green chain.  Our even end was on the far side of the chain from the mill.  That's where we did the majority of stacking, and we used a cart system.  On the opposite side is where we stacked lumber that we didn't get a whole lot.  That was mainly the pallet boards.  

I think a green chain is the most efficient method for band mill.  It would reduce the amount of walking needed.  The other thing you can put on your green chain are stops.  If you have hydraulics, they're pretty easy to put so they can be operated remote.  I think if the mill has a pullback system, there would be no need for belts or rolls.  You can pull right back to the green chain.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

moodnacreek

Perhaps some one reading these posts is planning a set up.  So I thought that I should say that in my case the logs coming in to the saw are all the same length.[for that run]

twobears

I,ve thought about sorting my logs by length..it seems like it would save alot of time piling lumber.i,am planning on setting up a bigger mill and using the rolls with kickers likes been on these posts...i like percys setup.you could saw say 8 footers until the storage deck was full or you run out of logs and then scoop the lumber up and move it to the area where it would be piled..or if you had help it could be piled as it came off the kicker convoyer then moved to storage.i worked in a big mill that sawed hardwood.they had a green chain with carts beside it for lumber.the way it was setup all you did was run all day long one end of the green chain to the other end.plus when they filled the carts you never knew what length lumber went where because they kept changing how the carts where lined up.
 I,am thinking about using percys rollers/kickers and a mix of woodmizers ideas like they had at boonville off the sawmill would be a two way kicker to my edger and a resaw then the roller convoyer would go to a set of green chains with a two way kicker slabs going into a chipper or shear.the lumber would go left on the green chain dropping into a rack that can be picked up with forks.

nativewolf

Quote from: moodnacreek on July 15, 2019, 08:28:49 AM
Perhaps some one reading these posts is planning a set up.  So I thought that I should say that in my case the logs coming in to the saw are all the same length.[for that run]
Indeed that's the purpose of the thread, seemed several posters recently were asking the same basic questions: sawmill shed design, mill layout, etc.  I am considering a mill layout and wanted to specifically understand processes that might help address my biggest concern: labor.
Liking Walnut

Ron Wenrich

We always sorted logs by length and by species.  I would saw 8' logs for a couple of days.  I might saw oak for a couple of weeks.  All depends on how it is coming in from the logging crew.  We also would run our log piles down in the summer to help prevent degrade from stain.  In the fall, they would pile things up so we had about a months worth of sawing.

We were doing about 2½ MMbf annually as well as about 500+ cds of split firewood and 500 Mbf veneer.  We were working on 4 acres.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

twobears


RON when I worked at the big commercial mill we sawed hardwood and did it by species.we would saw say hard maple for a week or so then switch species.but we didn't sort by length and I think we should have.the log yard used a 210 log loader to unload trucks and cat wheel loader to feed the debarker it would have been easy to sort logs in the yard each load was layed out on the ground so the logs could be scaled then piled.i saw mostly white pine with my mill but I think I,ll try sorting by length and see how it goes. 

longtime lurker

I'll toss this picture up because it was in some stuff I saw advertised for sale today, and its relevant. Different kind of roundabout... would work pretty well with a dragback I'd say.



 
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Hilltop366

Simple automation: Mill, log deck and dragback rollers up high enough to use gravity.

Make the rollers in two sections end to end, roller frames pivot in the centre of the ends so material can be dumped off either side.

This gives you 4 places to sort (5 if you use the end of the roller): waste, finished size boards, slabs to be edged, odd stuff to be sorted later. Everything dumps off the rollers on a rack to be handled by forks. 

Very little power needed to dump the roller, could use a manual leaver, air, electric tarp motor, or hydraulic. Power the end of the first roller to send stuff down the line that you want to go to the second roller. 

Thinking about what you want to sort at each drop and design racks to suit the purpose to reduce footsteps and manual handling.

moodnacreek

Because of existing conditions not every body can dump both ways. I had to get outside the mill building to do it. This is why I make the remark 100 feet long. Many will want to be able to dump, flip or sweep 20 footers . It wouldn't take long to get 50' plus from the end of the building which is 70' +- from the saw. I can't see that far to even end [ when to push the button] but it sure beats carrying .  The only way to sawmill or firewood proses is with conveyers and decks, the more the better.

customsawyer

Many here have seen my place either in person or in pictures and videos. I would like to get it set up with less manual labor but most things I come up with works great when you have help but adds steps when sawing alone. For everything I gain I lose something in another spot. 
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

twobears

@moodnacreek I,ve already thought about seeing everything in a long stretched out building.i plan on having some carmera's and the monitor at the sawing station.you can get a four camera system fairly cheap.

moodnacreek

There is no limit to automation.  A big problem when you first do some automation is that if it doesn't work it is in the way so what ever you put 'on line' must operate as wanted or better. Most any conveyer or chain deck should have forward and reverse. My slab drag only goes out to the slab wood saw, what a mistake. A camera would be good for me when turning cracked logs on the carriage [as opposed to a mirror]. I should look in to it.  Thanks

twobears

@moodnacreek your welcome.i never thought about reverse but I can see where it might be handy...del makes a note. ;D guys I,am doing a lot of research on mills and I,am thinking about building my own right from scratch..sawmill and everything else and I,ve been doing a lot of reading on here and the web :P..you folks sure have been busy sharing knowledge and good ideas...thanks i,ve learned a lot.

longtime lurker

The problem with all these 4 and 5 way drafts as you go down a line is more than just being able to see when to pull the lever to dump left or right 50 foot away... it's knowing what lever you're supposed to pull when it's 50 foot away. If I'm running a saw then I'm sawing... and with a good circle saw those boards are coming off fast most of the time. My attention is on the saw and the log, the board that's already left is not in my consciousness, and I'm not stopping sawing long enough for a piece of lumber to travel to wherever so I can sort it correctly before I cut the next board.

All I ever want is two ways, maybe three ways, coming off the mill. Wood and waste is critical, because handling waste twice gets expensive fast. A third direction is to split the wood somewhat... maybe to pull off stuff to come around again or for an edger... but thats about all I can really handle. I can always sort boards when the mill isn't running.... ie on the greenchain, or at the docking saw.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

twobears

two wipers and four directions should take care of everything.first left resaw,and right would be edger...then straight thur to a green chain..left on the green chain finished lumber,right slabs to a piling rack or chipper..boards off the edger would go thur the edger then be carried back onto the rolls to go to the green chain.the deck carrying the edger lumber should be higher then the rollers so the lumber from the head saw can go thur along with slabs and not get hit by the edged lumber and pushed off the rollers.

YellowHammer

Quote from: customsawyer on July 17, 2019, 03:19:07 PM
Many here have seen my place either in person or in pictures and videos. I would like to get it set up with less manual labor but most things I come up with works great when you have help but adds steps when sawing alone. For everything I gain I lose something in another spot.
@customsawyer is right on the mark.  Every time I add, or try to add a piece of automation, it stretches my line out, adds footsteps and begs for a helper.  I want the automation to make sawing by myself easier and more productive, not force me to get a helper.
For example, I've tried a few home grown ways using roller tables and such to dead stack sawn lumber on a pallet, nothing seems to work as good as by hand.  If the lumber is being carried away from me, down a line, I have to chase it down and then stack it.  Kickers, three ways, etc will eject the boards off the line, but how do you neatly stack them on a pallet?  For less than $10K? 
Even boards coming off a green chain need to be hand stacked onto pallets, don't they?  How can a sawyer do that and still be efficient sawing?  Unless they feed into a high dollar auto stacker? 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Southside

I don't think you do get a cheap fix.  Maybe cheap-ish if you are not sawing grade and use a vertical edger like 4x4 has.  Seen any big mills pop up for $150K lately?  Yes rollers, kickers, green chains reduce the total physical component to the labor, but at the end of the day if you want to produce what the line of mills we run can produce then you still need some decent labor back there who can use their brain and their back.  There is no sense in making a pile by the edger, just to have to pick those green flitches back up to run them through, you need that guy there to decide just what to cut off.  Sure, use a return so he is not running around the thing, but he is still in the equation.  Even a half decent set up will be a force multiplier when it comes to the labor, I know with two guys behind me I can increase my production by 400%, add in a third and it gets even better and I still don't have my conveyors or returns in place yet.  The Baker two man set up works very well, but that is ideally a tie set up first with grade as the second component, and what does it cost $600K?  Not really what a small retail mill needs or benefits from.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

longtime lurker

In this video you'll see a guy run a saw. I'm well familiar with that model saw and he's going at maybe 5% speed for whatever reason, but we're not talking saws here anyway/we're talking sawlines.

Its one heck of a good integrated sawline.... and if that dude cranked her up to speed it would process a lot of logs a day. I don't know what that setup is worth, but I do know that it would be a money maker just because about the only thing old mate isn't doing from the bench is stacking and having lunch.

Probably out of reach for most of us, but worth watching for ideas.

KARA Master - YouTube
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

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