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Treating and storing logs

Started by kboilers, September 15, 2004, 10:49:54 AM

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kboilers

  I'm planning on building my first hand scribed log sauna this spring.  I'll be using 60, 12-14 in mid span dia, 20 ft white pine cut this winter.
  Should I get all the logs peeled before the snow melts?  What are some chemical treatment options?  I'm planning on doing a rough peel and a final peel, should I retreat after the final peel.
  If I'm lucky, I should have the walls up in a year.  Do I need to keep the logs covered?  Is there an inexpensive way to keep the logs off the ground and keep them covered?

Thanks, Kurt

beenthere

Welcome to the forum.
From your questions, sounds like working with green logs is pretty new to you, and you have little to no experience. I don't say that to be offensive, but just trying to establish the 'framework' within which we can have some good dialogue.
If the trees are cut already, then peeling will be work. Do you have in mind what you will use to peel these logs?
'Chemical treatment' would be for what purpose? Bugs? Stain? Drying? Checking?
Getting the logs covered and off the ground would likely be a good idea. A couple sacrificial logs on the ground with the others laying across them will get them off the ground. Cheap tarps will cover them. Staining of the white pine happens with warm temperatures, and depending on how long since cutting the trees, may already have taken place.
Tell us more, if you would, and we should be able to help you along with this project, I am sure.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

raycon

If I read it right trees will be felled in the winter and yes it'll be best to peel the logs in the winter as well.
Once there peeled I'd shield them from the sun and weather but let air flow through the stack. Seal the ends.
I cut blocks around 10"x10"x10" cubes put  6"x8"-8'  timbers spaced 2' on centers and stack large (milled)  timbers this way. Its not as labor intensive as it reads.  With non-square stuff (round logs) I'd probably just stack them and watch for staining when the weather warms.
Last winter I peeled a few pine logs and to scrape/chisel the bark off one log took between 10-30 minutes. Used an industrial looking ice scraper with a sharpend chisel like cutting edge.
Lot of stuff..

kboilers

Little to no experience with green logs is an accurate statement.  I took a log home building course last fall, so I've peeled logs, cut notches, lateral grooves, flattened logs, scribed, and hauled a lot of wood chips.  
  Not alot of info at the course regarding treating and storing logs.  Just looking to get some other opinions.  Assuming the chemical treatments would be for bugs and mold.  I would be interested to know more about staining of white pine.  Is that to be expected of red pine as well?  Are there ways to prevent it?

Thanks
  

Jeff

Red pine will stain too. Ya gotta get those logs decked well off the ground. It dont take long at all before the boreres will be in business.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Philip

I had a similar situation in that I needed to cut some trees immediately, but could not mill them for at least a year.  Now, I'm from NE Louisiana, and I know you will not have the potential problem we have with mold, fungus and bugs, but I'll tell you what I did and how it turned out.

My trees were all SYP.  I cut them in late August /early September (still hot & humid).  Within 1 1/2 weeks, I stacked the logs off the ground, left the bark on and put a water sprinkler on top of them to continuously keep them wet.  In the winter the water froze several times, but it caused no problemsl.  After 18 months I began to mill the first logs.  The bark literally fell off with just the least amount of persuasion.  When milling, the lumber looked like I had just cut the tree down.  They were great looking boards, but very wet.  Since it was hot (late spring), when I first started milling these logs, I found out right quick that I had to put some fans blowing on this freshly sawn/stickered lumber to keep the mold and fungus down.  Most of the lumber did have a slight brown stain to it after drying, but virtually all came off when planed.  And no evidence of any bug activity.  That water sprinkling really did the trick.  If I hadn't done this, I know the logs/lumber would have rotted very quickly.

Anyway, this is my very limited experience with trying to store logs.  Hope it helps.

Philip

Norm


Philip

Thanks Norm.  I've been watching and reading for awhile.  Sure a lot of helpful, knowledgeable people hereabouts. Tomorrow, I heading over to Gilbert, TX to join Joey Lowe and Jim Rogers for a timber framing school.  Heck, I might even learn something, if I'm not too careful.

Thanks again, glad to be here.

Minnesota_boy

You should definitely peel the logs before the snow melts.  The bark will come loose from the wood easier if the temperatures are above freezing, but you want them all peeled and off the ground before it warms much above that.  The bacteria that causes blue stain begins to work at about 40 degrees but won't do much until the wood reaches near 70 degrees.  By then you want the wood to be too dry for the bacteria to work.  This means covering the logs, but don't just hang a tarp over them.  Make a framework to hold the tarp above the logs to get good airflow or the logs will stain.  

Friends that built a house from red pine used a water/bleach solution sprayed on the outside of the logs to limit staining.  I think they used 10 parts water to 1 part bleach.

  Once the bark is off and the logs are off the ground, you shouldn't have any trouble with borers.  The beetle whose larva make the holes lays the eggs in the bark after sensing that the tree is dying and if there is no bark, there will be no beetles laying eggs.  Plus, if the logs are peeled before the snow is gone, the logs will be starting to dry on the outside before the beetles arrive.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

beetle

I am far from having any knowlege of timber and logs, however, I do have some experiance with white pine timbers and blue stain, it is a pain in the rear and once started it is very hard to control. I took delivery this spring 3000 bf of white pine timbers for my current timber frame barn project and sure as heck, once the temp climbed up in May and June it started. I would recommend treating the surface of your logs upon removal of the bark to kill any blue stain spores that may be present and do what you can to get the surface dry.

 After much research I learned that a borax/borate solution is the best way to treat for blue stain spores.  I will find the mixture that I obtained from our US Navy and post it under this thread later.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

beetle

Found it.... This is per US Navy specifications:

65% water.
20% Borax.
15% Boric acid.

Heat the above slightly to dissolve, this will give you the maximum solubility of borates in water. I bought the Boric acid from McMaster Carr., the Borax from Giant Eagle, and water from the city of Hiram.

It did work.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Buzz-sawyer

I have also seen recipes for using anti freeze and borax as anti fungal preservative.......... :P
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Timberworks

We have been using white pine for house logs and timbers for the past 25 years.
If the logs are wintercut, they can remain bark-on until the sun melts the snow off the bark, in the spring.
Then peel the logs right away, as the weather permits.
Several log home stain companies sell a millwork treatment that will protect the logs for about 3 to 6 months. Sansin Corp is one supplier whose product works well.
I agree with other posters that it is best to protect the logs from UV light and damp conditions (wet dry cycle).
Once the warm weather hits, keep checking the logs for failed treatment ie: signs of mildew.
Timbers are usually easier to keep in good shape, as the sapwood has mostly been removed.
We treat our logs and timbers as soon as they are peeled/milled and then add more millwork treatment when the wood begins to show signs of drying (checking) or if water soaks into the wood.
I hope this helps. I have often said that trying to keep white pine logs looking good, is like trying to keep celery crisp in a sauna.
Peel 'em, treat 'em, and keep 'em outa the sun. ;D

Philip

Beetle, thanks for your 'recipe'.  I've been looking for something to coat my fresh cut lumber before stickering.

I suppose you can use a typical pump-up sprayer to apply?  What about toxicity during spraying, and later when further millling the lumber?  Anything to worry about?  

Any other ideas or suggestions for safe and effective fungi and insect prevention would be surely appreciated.

Thanks,  Philip

beetle

Phillip,

I used a standard pump up garden sprayer, just make sure you get the solution dissolved real good, the Borax and Boric acid are granular.

As far as toxicity, Borax and Boric acid are pretty inert. Of the research I did it is about as safe as you can get, however, I am not a expert in chemistry so read all appropriate MSD sheets and use the appropriate personal protective equipment.

Punch it up on the web and you will get all kinds of info on the toxicity of this.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

JoeyLowe

Here is a couple of links to a site that sells a prepared product for use in killing those nasty pests that inhabit our pine beams:

The first product is for bora care and the link is:

http://www.pestproducts.com/bora_care_info.htm

The second link is for Timbor and the link is:

http://www.pestproducts.com/timbor.htm

Now, I'm not affliated with these companies, but I have bought the boracare product and am very pleased with it.

Good luck!
--
Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

beetle

When I had the Blue Stain issue on my white pine timbers, all the research I did pointed to the above recipe as being equal to commercial products listed, just 1/4 the cost.

Now I did not or can not confirm that claim, but consider the trade names; " Bora", " Bore" etc. Sure sounds like Borates to me? That recipe is a US Navy spec. The cost to make was about $5.00 Gallon.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

UNCLEBUCK

Hello, I never had any success peeling a frozen by hand but just from my experiences I peeled on the first warm days of spring or anytime above freezing , I layed all logs out on old junk logs and then you have room to turn and ride the logs while you peel , when the temps got warmer I sprayed usually after a rain or when I noticed the logs were growing a new hide with "organiclear" and a hand sprayer and I have even left logs laying unpeeled all summer off the ground and in the fall I could fling the bark off with my hands and the logs had some beautiful worm lines on the surface and I would aim my garden sprayer right into bigger worm holes and give it a good flooding and watch it come out a few feet down the log in another hole, the logs off the ground is the only way and you can turn them once a week while they are really oozing sap out the ends and I really didnt want to seal the ends because I was looking for massive rapid drying during summer . As for covering I never did because I always need to pick and choose from the piles and never messed with it , I never really had much success getting a good deep peeling and always left the cambium layer on which looks like tiger stripes and that kind of helped protect them but after a hot summer the cambium pretty much dries up and blisters off or you can lightly sandblast it when its all done . just my experiences. lots of luck with your sauna project . I guess you will be breathing in fungicides in your sauna if you dump on too much organiclear . good luck now !
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

UNCLEBUCK

Here is pictures of how I layed logs out and off the ground but never protected them from the weather because of being in a high wind area . One important lesson I learned twice is that it is easy to peel bark off in the spring and leave the reddish cambium layer on the log but if you decide to not peel until later in the summer or fall the log does not have that pretty reddish look of the cambium layer ,more of just one solid color tone of the wood and worm lines . When spring peeling of bark the cambium layer will dry up and blister off after laying in the hot sun after a few months and make your beautiful cabin logs look really raggy but I have seen a few cabins placed in shady areas where the sun never tortured the cambium layer and it looked beautiful just like the day it was peeled so I guess the sun can be your worst enemy if you let it . I still have 2 of these white pine logs in the photos that ended up peeled and layed on the ground 20 years ago and I still use them for setting logs on but I would consider them half rotten so all in all white pine or the norway red pines are great cabin logs especially working with green freshly peeled logs is a treat because being wet your indelible pencil scribe lines really stand out bright and its much nicer to gut out the laterals without having pieces tear out . I watched a married couple build their log cabin over a 4 year time span , their craftsmanship was impeccable but when it came time to get the roof finally closed up they started poking on their beautiful log walls and noticed what they had was no good . Their logs had became too rotten to continue the project and the whole house was cut up for firewood . They had gotten carried away with fancy workmanship and oh how mother nature dealt them a whopping blow . I will post the 2 pics of my peelings first thing in the morning as I am having some computer problems right now
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

UNCLEBUCK

UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

JimY

 ??? ???
One more time might be the charm.  ;)

UNCLEBUCK

UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

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