The Best Investment

[Deadwood]

If I was a better Accountant perhaps I could present some of my thoughts in statistical terms. I really can't do that so I will just come out and ask my question.

Can anyone think of a better investment than a tractor?

I know for every kind of implement a tractor has, there is a special machine that can do it better (like a skidder, combine or forklift). Still no machine has the versatility that a tractor has. Pulling out wood, shoveling dirt with a loader, taking Aunt Elenor's couch out to the barn for storage...all these are uses a tractor gets every day.

Perhaps there is a way for a tractor's true worth to be calculated, but I certainly could not do the math. I am not simple minded mind you, but just consider for a moment how impressive of an investment a tractor is. First you would have to consider it's low price tag. My Kubota for instance cost 14,300 bucks in 1999. If that sounds high, look at my old truck, 20,000 for that same year. Guess which one is still being used? Guess which one cost me an arm and a leg for maintenance and is no longer on the road? Then guess which one has not even reached its teenage years in terms of longevity?

Then there is the cost per hour. I am not sure how you could put a price tag on such convienience? It runs all day on 5 gallons of diesel fuel. It has never needed repairs six years. The maintenance is so minimal it would be a stretch to call it 100 bucks a year.

Of course then you would have to subtract it's costs from what it produces. There is the next statistical challenge. How could you put the work it does into those kind of crunchable terms? You would never hire a neighbor to do all the work you do with your own tractor. There is just no way you could afford to do that. There is no way you could afford a piece of rental equipment either. Been there, done that and paid dearly for it!

Then there is the health issue to consider? How many of us would watch TV more if we did not have a tractor to help us get the job done. I for one know I would procastinate if I had to do all that manual labor. Instead I get outside when its 20 below and blowing twenty and push snow out of my yard. Fun? Hardly, but it doesn't kill me either. It gets me out of the house at least.

I think you can see where I am going with this. So perhaps now that I have typed for an hour the answer can be found on that blasted television after all. Maybe the Forestry Forum should ask Mastercard for sponsorship. I can see the headline now...

Travis and his Kubota...priceless.

Any thoughts on this my friends?

[beenthere]

Don't have to convince me. My Deere 4300 with FEL is 6 years now, and has done all the above.

beenthere with Deere and 'priceless'......

[crtreedude]

This year we bought an ATV to and a wagon to move trees, etc. around. It made a huge difference. We would have never finished planting in a reasonable time if we didn't have it.

The ATV was nearly new and we got it for 4,000 USD - a new one is 8,000 USD here. Four wheel drive and street legal. It is a lot faster going across the roads down here than a 4-wheel drive SUV.

[Tom]

I never reallly thought of my tractors as investments.   No, that's not true.  I bought the backhoe to build the road and then get rid of it.  I just can't seem to bring my self around to it.   It's like part of the family.   My little ford was bought to clear the house site.  Actually, I think it was to satisfy a life-long dream.  All little boys play with trucks and tractors and such.  I think I just wanted a tractor and bought the property so that I could have an excuse to drive one.   It's some of the best intertainment I ever invested in.  ........there's that word again. :D

Yep, an agricultural tractor is a real "do-it-all" and an industrial tractor comes in pretty handy too.  I keep coming back to that quote I heard "a tractor has wheels to get the engine where you can use it."  That's pretty true, I guess.  The PTO runs pumps and mowers and all manner of things.  It's the hydraulic pump that I find so useful.  What would we do without hydraulics.?

Mowing, raking, drilling holes with and auger, pounding fence pulling wire, grading, filling holes, carrying dirt, pulling logs, controlling fires, pumping water, spraying fields, pulling wagons, getting over bad roads in the wet season (gotta have 4wd), and my kids used the FEL for a high dive on the weekends. ;D

[TexasTimbers]

Still no machine has the versatility that a tractor has.

.


Now my little Ford tractor is nice and all, but I have to respectfully disagree. There ain't nothin a tractor can do that a skiddy can't do, and *most* everything a skiddy can do alot better and thus more versatile. Although I'd hate to try and plow a field with my Daewoo!
Sentimental feelings toward the old workhorse of modern America is understandable, but when you look at all the attachments available for a skid steer, and after you have perfomed many of these tasks with one, really a tractor can't hold a candle to a skid steer for "most" operations.
Not that the tractor will ever become obsolete, even though on modern computer-controlled tractors that have "auto pilot" capability the Operator has become all but useless.
Tractors are great, but if you give me a list of tasks to do on a farm from drilling holes for fence posts to lifting, moving, cutting trees, skidding them, grinding the stumps, putting them on the live deck, etc. ad infinitum I'm picking the skid steer hands-down and I'll have your chicken fried steak waitin on ya when you get your chores done long after the cows have come home.

Ford Tractor - Inherited
1996 DSL Daewoo Skid Steer $7000 (heckuva deal)
A rainy day enabling me to pluck away at this keyboard - now that's priceless.

[Deadwood]

Sorry Kevjay, I just don't see.

I have to admit, it took me a second to figure out what you were talking about. You see where I live anyway, a skidder is a huge rubber tired machine that has a blade on one end and a logging arch on the other. A skiddy as it may be, but I see now that you were referring to what I would call a skid-steer.

Now I agree that a skid-steer has more attachments available. I mean who has ever heard of a kubota having a cold asphalt planer hooked to it, or a impact hammer like you can get for skid-steers. But the reason I disagree is for the maintenace aspects of it. Being chain drive, under-powered and all hydraulic, man those machines take a pounding in the maintenance department.

I base my conclussions on the one at work, and that thing is always down to Work Equipment being reworked...and other than pushing snow in the winter and moving welders around, the thing just sits there for weeks. I am not so sure the resale value would hold up as well either. I mean when the pumps are shot, well you got one big bill, a lot of headaches and a machine that won't move. In other words, scrap metal. Compare that to a 40 year old Farmall H or something, and a person can get the same price for it 40 years later as they did when they first bought it! Now that is a good investment! (Here old tractors sell in the 1500 dollar range...I make the assumption that in the 40's, 1500 was the selling price of a new tractor?)

Now I do not mean any disrespect by any means. I can see where anyone would fall in love with the versatility of a skid-steer, but as a whole I would not say a skid-steer would be a better investment over a tractor.

[TexasTimbers]

Oh good gosh I don't thik it is even close my friend. But we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't want to start a list of all the things a skid steer can do better, quicker, and more efficiently but I have been around tractors all my life, and skid steers for only the past 7 years and it didn't take long for me to decide there's no contest really.
But of course this is a subjective topic and opinion is just that.
Maybe we aren't on the same page, but when you said "more versatile" I'm thinking in terms of quantity, i.e. the "number" of tasks a skid steer can do better than a tractor is much greater in my feeble little mind.
In my opinion if you assign 100 different tasks to each piece of equipment the same HP tractor (and even greater with respect to some tasks) will still be working long after the skid steer is in the shed.
Like I said of course, you can pick some things that a tractor can do 10 times faster than a skid steer like plowing/discing/harvesting etc but overall the skid steer can do a larger variety of tasks and do most of them quicker.
But of course, I reserve the right to be wrong, because anytime I found out I've been wrong I look at it as a GOOD thing because it means my eyes have opened to something I didn't know before! ;D

[Deadwood]

No, we probably will never agree on this, but one of the best things about forums is that differences can make for some interesting posts. That does not mean I think I'm right either in every way. In many ways you proably are more knowlegeable because my experience with skid-steers is pretty lacking. I never ran one long enough so that I could say I was good with one, and I have run a lot of equipment. I think it's that stupid feet thing. Never could get my hands and feet to get coordinated enough.

In any case I would never have hard feelings on any differences you are I might have. I am not like that. In fact if you lived close by I would invite you up for a few lobsters, shake you hand, probably toss a few skid-steer slurs your way all in good fun, expect a few against tractors and have a heck of a time drinking coffee and chatting about forestry for half the night. That's the way I am anyway. Life is too short to take any opinion to seriously...well except for when it comes to those people that think no trees should be harvested. They get my dander up!

[slowzuki]

I'd have to say the skidsteer makes a better loader machine by far than a tractor.  But as a true tractor for pulling things a skidsteer losses out.  Some basics like pulling a wagon load of logs are just not practical on a skidsteer.

Now to be far I'm halfway, I've got a hydrostatic tractor.  It has the precise movements of a skidsteer for loader work but not the great view.  But I can bale my hay and haul haywagons, skid logs out of the woods, pull a plow etc more traditional farmer type things.

Now if I was cleaning out barns or feeding out bulk stored sileage everyday a skidsteer would certainly be in the stable.
Ken

[Tom]

Skidsteers I've run are claustrophobic little animals that require a lot of constant eye, hand, arm, leg and foot coordination and lack the power or weight to move logs efficiently without tearing up the ground all around them.  Some of that may be able to be curtailed with experience but why?

They lack a good overhead view, seat you too low and high-center in the woods.  It's hard to see to the side and almost impossible to look behind.

A skidsteer's place, in my opinion is to go between the houses of an Urban neighborhood and lay drain fields, perhaps dig small pools or set out plants.    They are quite maneuverable in tight quarters.

Lots of effort has been spent by manuyfacturers to make them a little less distructive, but, they still act like a bulldozer on Golf course.

[Rockn H]

I like a skid steer and they deffinately offer an endless supply of attachments.  The thing that steers me away from them is the cost of those attachments.   Look at northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company for example.  Their post hole auger for a skid steer is $1400.  An auger for a 3point hitch on a tractor is $600.  I have seen the skid steer quick attach on the FEL of several tractors.  Makes switching from a bucket to forks really quick.

[ronwood]

Tom,

I would agree on some of your points. I bought a New Holland LX885 about 2 months ago. It works well for what I need.  60HP engine with a lot of power and 2500 lb lifting capaicity.  Prefer it over a small 4 wheel drive tractor. One of the biggest factors that I look at is safety. Hard to turn over and you are well protected in the cage. Not the easist to get out I admit. My New Holland has a longer wheel base (48 in) than most and is generally more stable.

One thing that my son and I do to avoid tearing up the ground is to not turn the skidsteer on a small radius. Makes a big differnce. Hoping to put tracks on it next year.

Cost of repairs I believe is more costly than a tractor. As for as resale value I think is is decent. Try buying a good used one.

When you get down to it, its really a what works for your situation, much like a bandsaw versues circle mill.

My thoughts
Ron

[TexasTimbers]

Yo Deadwood I never thought we was sideways. People just disagree on stuff ya know. ;D

There's just endless comparisons too. Like RocknH says the skid auger is $1400 and the 3 point is $600 and that's true but it is apples to oranges. a skid auger will out-perform the 3 point by a L - O - N - G - S - H - O - T.  It will drill much faster, deeper, bigger dia., and MUCH easier to keep plumb. I know because I have punched hundreds of holes with both of them.
Even my light duty auger (skidsteersolutions.com) will outperform a 3 point something like 3 to 1 at least.

Ya have to compare apples to apples where possible. Of course, if you HAVE a tractor it doesn't make sense to purchase an auger and skid steer for just that (unless you have a pier drilling business)when you can pick up a 3 point for a couple hundred bucks or less at any farm auction.

If I was going to be biased one way or the other and throw out logic, I would probably lean toward the tractor as I too have had a longer relationship with tractors, and I LOVE them!
But just because you aren't comfortable  with a piece of equipment doesn't render it as a lesser. In fact, skid steer owners who are adept and efficient with them will, as I will continue to ever assert, work cirlces around a comprable sized tractor, and not just in tight, urban neighborhoods .

[johnjbc]

Most new tractors now have a Skid Steer option that lets you take the bucket off the loader and mount Skid Steer Attachments. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

As far as tractors are concerned, it doesn't matter if your using it for farming, if you buy one 60 HP or more, no tax. ;D A nice Kabota of 60 HP is cheaper than a 4x4 pickup truck these days. If you have good, dry level ground out in the back 40 a tractor is good for harvesting and skidding with a Farmi Winch for example. It's a nice place to keep warm when plowing snow and loading logs onto the straight truck. My father had a 100 HP Deere (can't rem model) that he got more on trade than he paid for it. Had it over 20 years, it was hydrostatic. Also, we had a couple skid steers for shoveling spuds, moving equipment and cleaning up dirt around the potato shed. If your operation is a bit more than a part time expedition, it's nice to have both machines around the yard. ;)

[Tom]

It's those adept skid-steer operators that keep coming to the house to get me to pull their machine off of the stump or out of the hole back in the swamp.  They need to stay on high ground where they won't bottom out. 

If I were to be biased and throw out all logic I'd still pick the tractor.

[SwampDonkey]

There's one chap down the road that bought the farm and sold off all the equipment and rents out all the land. I guess that must be how they farm in Holland. ;) He kept the skid steer and uses it to plow snow and move dirt. Most of the time it's idle. I seen him attempt to fix one of his roads with it this summer after a major washout, but it was futile. It was fortunate that the road was a designated ROW my great grandfather set aside from the farm, and I noticed the government sent a grader to fix it all one afternoon.

[Jeff]

We had a bobcat skid steer out in the woods and I had a lot of experience running it as well as everyone else in that woods crew. We were all experienced in its use as we had it for almost a year. It had a small set of tree shears with a feller buncher. We also had tracks for it if it got slimy.

We were forever rescuing that confounded thing with the skidders. If it wasn't stuck, it was high centered. If it wasn't high centered it was flipped over from any simple turn on uneven ground. If you have dry flat ground free of vegetation like trees, they might be of more use in the forestry setting. As it is, you never see them up here in the woods any longer. You will see tractors, or old tree farmers and iron mules run by the guys that don't have the bucks to lay out for a big skidder, but never a skid steer because they know better. Its not because they ain't around, there are plenty here. You can go by the farm equipment dealers and see rows of them sitting there for sale.  Its because they are poorly suited for a logging or forestry operation, but work well on the farm. Thats where they are most beneficial, at least up here in the north. Moving crap.

[wiam]

Can't agree about the skidsteer.  I can mow hay, ted hay, rake hay, bale hay (round or square), load the round bales on a trailer and haul them to the barn (I know the skidsteer can load, but can it haul 12 to the barn over the road at 18 MPH?). Can a skidsteer stack 4' round bales 4 high?  How do you hitch a three point hitch winch to a skidsteer?  I can haul full lenght 18" trees through 3' of snow.  I also fill my manure spreader and pull it though the field.  I have used skidsteers to clean freestall barns, plow snow, move dirt, load manure and feed cows(had a hydraulic motor on the feed wagon)  Skidteers have their place,but not even compairable to a farm tractor.

Will

[TexasTimbers]

Wiam, you are the only one making any sense in that last salvo. Of course I disagree with the last statement but as I said, pick 100 tasks and the tractor will excel in 30 to 40 of them, and the skid steer in the rest.

As far as skid steer operators beating a path to your door Tom to get pulled off a stump, I find this outlandish.  What do they have hanging off their machines - a wet noodle? :D Because that's about the only "attachment" I can think of that i could not use to push myself off of high center, which is not an uncommon situation to find yourself in, in a skid steer as I have found myself their many times, but any driver worth his salt will use his attachment to push or pull himself off of high center or even push himself out of a mudhole in no time.

Jeff your descrition of you and your comrades sounds like a good script for a 3 stooges flick. :D

I will politely excuse myself from this discussion as it is deteriorating very quickly into the realm of fiction. I've provided a link some of you may be interested in. Some of you certainly have the talent for it :D :D :D: http://chicago.craigslist.org/crg/103215900.html

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[Tom]

Yeah, that's probably a good move.  We haven't had a stupid conversation or effort at creating a personal confrontation like this in years.
Sometimes moving on is the best thing you can do.

[TexasTimbers]

[beenthere]

To each their own. Enjoy what you like, want, or have. 

[Deadwood]

Mr Moderator, could I please get this post back to what my orginal intention was? It certainly was not to pit a skid steer against a tractor but to show that a tractor is one heck of an investment. If you read my first few posts I think I tried to make that point.

There are very few mechanical pieces of equipment that do that. As someone mentioned, they bought a tractor, used it for 30 years and then turned around and sold it for more than they bought it for orginally. Not a bad investment by itself. Now factor in the amount of work it did in 30 years and now you have a piece of equipment that means more than your first born child.

Of course I really do not mean that, but they do feel like family. When our old 900 Ford gave up the ghost, well it was like losing an old friend. But just like Granddad, once it's heart gave out (the 3 point hitch hydraulic pump) well it just had to be put to pasture. It was born in 1949 so it was time.

As for the Kubota, I believe I could sell it now for just about what I paid for it. It has been meticulously maintained and would make someone a great tractor. So here is my delimia, do I sell it now, take the cash and buy a new tractor but maybe a size bigger? Or do I just keep it plugging away with it now because it's a good old girl that has a lot of life left in it. Either way, it does not owe me a thing. I owe a lot of gratitude to it.

Maybe there are people out there that are on the fence about buying a tractor. Maybe this post will convince them that the decision is easy to put into fininicial terms.

Buy it, it's a no-brainer as the new generation of kids would say.

[chet]

I bought my little Ford tractor 23 years ago. Easily, one of da best investments I ever made.