MO Trees

[OH logger]

mesquite not to hijack the thread just jumpin in way late but I didn't know you were from oak harbor. done work in oak harbor nice area only problem is they have skeeters the size of small cats

[mesquite buckeye]

I grew up near Helena. I have lots of relatives near and in Oak Harbor. Many people don't know that Oak Harbor produced the world's finest oak from the nearby Black Swamp and environs in the day of wooden ships.

And no they are not as big as cats. There are just so many that the ones biting you weigh as much as a cat. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Something I've been thinking about for some time but haven't mentioned. There is a plant that grows over a lot of my open areas that are being converted to timber called sericea lespedeza or Chinese lespedeza, Lespedeza cuneata. In Missouri it was originally called Korean lespedeza. The plant was introduced in 1938 to the US to control erosion and provide wildlife food in the SE states. It had been grown at experiment stations since the late 1800's. This plant was government introduced and recommended for CRp (sorry, my wife got the keyboard wet last night and some of the caps don't work now) up until the 1990's. The plants are very well adapted to about the southeastern third of the US and have invasive tendencies, which now have placed them on the government bad list even though it was originally released by them. The plant is now listed as a noxious weed in several states.

Here is a USFS info thingy www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/.../all.html

Pretty good writeup but there are mistakes. (Ain't no plants germinating at 194°F.)

Of course, things are never that simple. Once a plant makes the bad list the piling on commences, with the research directed at showing how bad an organism is and all of it's faults. Turns out that this plant has good features as well. The plant is one of few that will grow in poor, eroded acidic soils like old coal mines. As a legume the plant produces its own nitrogen and enriches the soil where it is growing over time. The plants are very drought tolerant and provide food for herbivores and birds in bad times.
It turns out that this Lespedeza is very good food for GOATS (probably even old ones) and sheep. In addition, The condensed tannins which are generally considered bad for forage, actually contribute to more efficient digestion in ungulates and more rapid weight gain. These same tannins also have been found to be as efficient in the reduction or elimination of worms and other intestinal parasites in sheep and goats as chemical treatments, eliminating the need for chemical wormers.

Check this out: simsbrothers.com/ourProducts.htm

Now I would like to add my two cents to the discussion. As posted earlier, I replanted the treeless parts of my CRP last year.  I had a lot of introduced Lespedeza present in my planting in patches. The person in charge of CRP aforestation for the county said I would have to treat the Lespedeza as part of the planting. I, being the nice guy that I am told him only if you guys pay for it. You were the ones who introduced it in the first place. He backed off at that point. Besides, I liked the fact that it grew in some of the poorer soils and helped return fertility to those soils. I had also noticed that inside the heavier Lespedeza stands the deer didn't bother the trees as much, allowing them to start to put on height growth instead of just growing as deer browse. The stuff acts as a natural fence inside the patches. When we just visited a couple weeks ago I noticed that one of the places where the ground was a little better and had walnut and cherry planted 16 years ago were showing walnut and cherry shoots sticking up about 6 tall in the most recently formed lespedeza patch. Before this year they were stuck in the grass/weed layer, never getting over a couple of feet tall because the deer munched them every time they tried to grow.

When the canopy closes the lespedeza gets sad and gets replaced by native shade plants. ;D

Maybe invasive, but the best thing that ever happened to my young trees. ;D 8) 8) 8)

This could be a good tool for aforestation, especially if it is already present in the area, you aren't going to be introducing a new problem plant. I wish I had planted it in my initial planting.  I think I would now have an even stand 30 feet tall by now instead of popcorn mounds where the deer happened to leave the trees alone so they could grow.

Any thoughts?

[gww]

I have a 4 acre feild that I disk and planted white clover.  The white clover lasted one year and the lesadiza was there before and after.  It was what made the hay for the last 20 years.  I agree with the poor dirt comment and the drought comment.
gww

[mesquite buckeye]

Better to have something than to have nothing, isn't it?

What animals do you feed with it and how do they like it?

;D

[gww]

My neibor was cutting it for goats and sheep and sometimes minature horses and he liked it.  The very few years he fertulize, it did double the hay out put but mostly he just cut it.
gww

Ps I was kind of hoping bees like it cause I know they like clover and I am trying to get a few hive going.  My neibor is finally getting old enough that I will probly just be bush hogging it from here on out.
gww

[mesquite buckeye]

One of the things I read said it was also a good honeybee plant. You could check that out by visiting the plants to see if the bees are using them. I would check several different times during the day as lots of honey plants only have nectar at certain times of the day. ;D

If you are looking to have a hive, you can help them out by having what they need within a mile of the hive. If it is further away than that it takes more nectar to fly and get it than they take back to the hive. Some good plants for bees are corn and other grasses (for pollen, they use that as a protein/nutrient source), sometimes soybeans have nectar, black locust, honey locust, maple, fruit trees, alfalfa, various wildflowers, clovers, buckwheat, cucurbits like squash, pumpkins, watermelons, cucumbers, melons and a wide variety of other flowering plants.

The best conditions for honeybees to thrive and get you plenty of honey are:

a decent mix of flowering plants in the early spring which allows the colony to recover from winter and get the number of bees up for the main honey flow.

one or two honey plants in sufficient quantity to provide a big honey flow maybe 5 weeks or more after a spring buildup honey flow. This will provide most of your honey.

Hope this helps. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Bees especially like basswood flowers.  ;D

[gww]

I planted 15 fruit trees last year and have a garden every year though this year it really really sucks except things in boxes.

I about killed off my first hive due to a couple of mistakes and robbing and sent it back to the guy I got it from cause to live it is going to need resources from other hives.  Next Year! 

I had watched them and they left plant alone this year that they just mobbed last year.  I have all kinds of flowers but they seem to be the ones bumble bees like more then honey bees.

I had to look up the basswood tree but still would not reconize one if I saw it.  Tree species is not one of my strong points though I am doing my best to pay more attention since building the mill.

Mesquite
I read this whole post yesterday cause I am from MO and found it interresting.  I didn't know it was here untill it came up when I hit "new post".

I didn't mean to take the thread off track but thanks for the advice on the bees.

Bees where the reason I built my mill.  I had scavanged a bunch of boards and built a few hives and was frustrated that I was having a hard time finding more that would work for hives.  Somebody got a mill on one of the bee forums and the rest is history, here I am.
I still don't have bees however now that I about killed my first hive.  I do have a mill though 8).
gww

[mesquite buckeye]

There are a lot of things to learn about bees including nectar plants, diseases, pests and general management. I have some experience with these things, so if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Basswood honey is supposed to be fabulous BTW. ;D 8) 8) 8)

A couple of great references: American Honey Plants, Frank C. Pellet. Last publication date I have is 1976.
       
                                           The Hive and the Honey Bee, Dadant & Sons. Last date I have for that one 1975.

Both of these are must haves if you want to be successful at beekeeping. The Hive and the Honey Bee may have been updated since my copy. There is no mention of Africanized bees or the diseases/pests that came in with them.

[gww]

mesq...
I have did a lot of reading.  I have only been in a hive 4 times.  I do think at some point reading is not enough and you just have to jump in and see what is happinning in person.  My first hive had eggs and larva but never capped any.  I misjuged the flow and did not feed soon enough and when I did I caused robbing.  I sent the hive back with the guy I got it from cause I had no resources to help it out with.(no other hive to steal stuff from) 

I guess if it takes off I will get it back this year or he will give me a nuc next year.

I tried trapping before getting this hive but had no success.  I built everything and only have about $220 counting bees in it and want to keep it that way.  I am not a seller and so I will probly use or give away anything I make just like I do eggs and I am sure boards also.  I like my hobbies but need them to be self sustaining and not money pits so I can keep doing them.   I may someday ask your advice on bees and thanks for the offer.

I could sell if I could just put it by the road with a can for the money but don't want to market anything and mostly want things I will use.  I am running out of places to stack wood so maybe I need to build a couple of more hives not that I have anything to put in them.  Winter is comming and I intend to be busy.

I have three acres of trees coming, so should have plenty to play with.  I am burning and trying to give away and have some for sell along the road, the bark and slab wood from what I have already cut and still have tops and some cut fire wood laying in my woods.

I am retired now and enjoying not having a schedule that I have to meet and so learning some of this stuff is really great.  I really thank you guys that are willing to help in my education.
Thanks
gww

[mesquite buckeye]

Depending upon how much work you want to do, I would start with at least 3 colonies. It will give you a better idea than just with one what is going on, as you can compare them to each other. Also gives you flexibility for management if one colony is getting too big and ready to swarm, you can steal brood or comb and give it to a weaker colony. I leave the political considerations for you to cogitate. ;D ;D ;D 8)

[gww]

Mesq......
I am on a fixed income and my wife does not like my hobbies near as much as I do.  Add that to the fact that I am a cheep bad word.  That is why I only bought one hive.  The guy only had one he wanted to get rid of also.  I didn't by packages from out of state because I thought I might need a little help.  I paid a bit more for these bees ($200) and only got one hive but I also got a little help and though the guy might be a tiny bit put out with me I believe he may yet save my bacon.  If things go well for the spring flow I may be able to split and from that point have the resources you talk of.  The alternative may be that I was penny wise and pound foolish and may lose it all.  I have about 10 medium hive bodies and two long langs built and about 200 frames and a whole bunch of board drying.  If it works out I am hoping for 3 or 4 hives with in a couple years.  I then may be in a position to not have to relie so heavily on others.  I will still be trying to trap to help with this.  It is hard for me to spend $500 knowing I am not going to sell honey even though not doing so may cost me $200 and I end up with nothing.  I have read of people losing 14 hives over winter.

I don't know what is smart.  I am cheep though and it has bit me before.
Thanks
gww

[mesquite buckeye]

if you make your own hives boxes and frames you can save a lot. I used to have 3 hives and the honey I sold paid for all my equipment and then some. It wasn't hard to sell it and honey is worth more now than when I was doing it in the 80's.

You can put up notes around the area and generally let people know you will remove swarms of bees for free and get them that way.

There was an old saying I learned as a kid:

A swarm in May is worth a load of hay.

A swarm in June is worth a silver spoon.

A swarm in July isn't worth a fly.

[gww]

The way I did it, the glue and staples and nails were what cost the most.  The bees really cost the most and have the most risk. 

I will get it right one of these days.
Thanks
gww

Ps I did not put myself on any swarm list or craigs list.  I did tell my family to call if they saw a swarm.    I have never saw a swarm in my whole life and mushroom hunt every spring.  I am watching closer now.

[Ford_man]

If you see a swarm flying clap your hands and it will confuse them and they will normally land close by
then you can get them into your box.

[Ford_man]

You can subscribe to http://www.americanbeejournal.com/ It is a very good educational paper that come out once a month I thing. When I had my Bees I could hardly wait for the next issue.

[mesquite buckeye]

That was very good. When I had bees, I read it every time it came.

[gww]

Ford...
I will check into that, thanks
gww

[SwampDonkey]

I imagine it's an 'association' type of journal or magazine to keep everyone informed. 

[beenthere]

SD
See reply #116... for the link to http://www.americanbeejournal.com/

[mesquite buckeye]

Dadant & Sons is a major provider of beekeeping supplies. FYI ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

If I actually lived in MO, i think I would have bees again. Lots of wildflowers, a big stand of black locust, honey locust, redbuds, wild cherry, wild plums, blackberries and all pretty close. Also corn and soybeans nearby. Would be even better if somebody close grew alfalfa. That one is a great honey plant. I wonder how much honey my invasive lespedeza makes?

Unfortunately, beekeeping is not something that works from a distance. If you want them to do well you have to check them regularly. :(

[gww]

I haven't got a subscription but am looking at the web content of the link that was posted.
Thanks
gww

[mesquite buckeye]

Back at it in MO. My nephew and son, Thomas. He has grown a bit since last time. Here he is with his first log. ;D

 

Seems like Missouri is the tick and chigger capital of the universe. Fortunately they seem to be asleep at the moment, but we are also known as the sticktight capital of the universe.

 
Here are just a few. :(


Cutting/thinning/pruning black locust.

 
Lichens are purty.

A bunch of these poles will become a tree house/deer stand. ;D 8) 8) 8)