Thinking about a grapple skidder...

[danbuendgen]

I am thinking about picking up a cheaper/older Timberjack grapple skidder 350 380 450 ect, I want a older machine, so I can pay cash and not have a payment, and avoid electronic issues. I have a few grapple skidder operational questions for anyone who has one and wants to chime in.

Basically, all the jobs I am looking at are all heavy cuts and heavy into firewood and lower grade logs, and I would like a way to pick up the wood mechanically as to not have to deal with pulling cable and setting chokers. First I was looking at a few cheaper 6wd forwarders, but they are all very very leaky, and just worn out, and I worry about electronic issues with a high hour forwarder... they have advantages, but they are much more machine and more expensive to buy compared to a grapple skidder of the same age. So I have been looking at a few grapple skidders with half the hours as the forwarders and all under 30k and they are all in far better condition.

1, I would be hand cutting for one and am wondering how they do when not following a feller buncher?
2, I feel like I could pick them up off the stump and skid to the main road, drop, and go back for more, until I have a full hitch. How time consuming is this? Would I be better off to grab what I can, and head to the landing and not handle the wood twice? I suppose it would depend on the skid distance. It has to be much faster then pulling cable and hooking chokers...
3, My 240 with DD uses 5-8 gallons per day, I know a little larger machine will use more fuel, how much can I expect to use in a full day of skidding? 15, 20, 25 gallons??
4, I hear the dual arch is the way to go... I am looking at a machine with a dual arch but no winch, and also a few machines with a single arch with winch, Which would you go with? I am leaning towards a skidder with no winch, but dual arch, because they are a little less money with out a winch, and I will be keeping my 240 around, so I can use that when needed.
5, Other then checking arch and grapple pins, is there anything I should look into as far as grapple skidders go?

Any info or tips would be great. THANKS

[mf40diesel]

I really can't add a whole lot...  although I do know a guy that is a hand cut guy with a pretty sizeable deere 648E.. grapple.  Prior to the 648 he had a 540 cable.  He was a little older and happy to have the grapple.  However last I talked to him, he was complaining that he wished he hadn't gotten rid of the 540. I think that big 648 used a good bit more fuel.

The real reason I am writing you is about your thumbnail pic.  I swear I saw that TJ for sale on craigslist just the other day.  Might be wrong, but I thought so. I cut wood for myself, parents and do a little work for guys around my area, but only with my 4wd tractor.  Would love to have an old TJ230 or Clark 664... someday

[danbuendgen]

Yep, I had it for sale all spring, and I guess I will keep it. I have thousands into it, and I didn't get any serious offers that I liked. I just sold a 4wd Franklin Forwarder, and wanted to sell the skidder also, and pick up a decent 6wd forwarder, but I couldn't find a good one in my price range. Im thinking about keeping the 240 and adding a grapple skidder to the operation.

Honestly, I hate to say it, but the cable skidder and chainsaw is becoming ancient technology and demand for them is dropping right off fast. Here in southern Vermont there are still a lot of old TJ's around, but more and more guys are getting mechanized...and it seems that foresters are giving jobs to mechanized operations over hand cut cable skidder guys....

[danbuendgen]

I just re-read your post, I would go for a 240 over a 230 big time. Its not much larger, but its much more stable and a lot more power. The 4-53 has much more power then the 3-53. The 4-53 also has more power then the 3.9 4bta cummins, and used less fuel. I operated my 240 with DD along my buddys 240 with Cummins, and my 240 would pull a bigger hitch all day long. I have operated all the 200 series skidders, and I wont ever buy a TJ smaller the a 240.

[RHP Logging]

Most of this state is mechanized which actually works out for me. There aren't many hancutters out there anymore that can cut jobs and timber most equipment can't.  I'm in demand here.  I run a Franklin forwarder tho.  So I can do pulp with some efficiency which is a must.

[danbuendgen]

RHP,
Just sold my Franklin forwarder, It was a good machine, but I live in the mountains, for cut to length it was not stable enough. And to "bunch" with the skidder seemed to take to long to handle the wood twice. I like forwarders, but all the 6wd ones are all out of my price range, and the few that are $30k or so, are total junk...

[BargeMonkey]

Here's my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
Dual arch is the only way to go, not just for grabbing bunches but also pushing yourself out. A single arch grapple is helpless doing that. If your hand cutting you can still do pretty good with a grapple, just need to get good bunching. Grab 2-4, grab 2-4 more, pull alongside the others and go. I put 200 trees out today on a 3/4 mile uphill both ways skid, chokers lay in a milk crate in the back rusting away. My help wants to sell the winch off my skidder.
Everyone talks how bad the newer electronic stuff is, yeah they suck to fix but they are so fast. I have a 460C, if you want to come try a grapple before you buy one I'm 1hr from albany. They like fuel, but it's a trade off. I go thru 100gal every other day between timbco, slasher, grapple and now delimber. Wouldn't go back to cable and a chainsaw for anything.

[Spartan]

My TJ 450a uses about 15-20 gal a day working pretty hard, but its a cable.  I usually run behind a buncher.  Can't say much for the grapple in your situation as I have never run one hand cutting.  I do know this.  If you are pulling steep pitches, don't get one without a winch.  we have a d6 crawler with a grapple and there are drags it can not get up certain pitches.  Line skidder can run circles around it all day long in that environment, even sometimes have to take some of it's drags from it.  You don't want to have to be switching skidders all the time.  especially if you are moving landings often. 

also, if you would save any time hooking individual logs with a cable skidder, you will lose the time you saved when you get to the landing and have to get out and unhook all of them, and have one get stuck and have to have the delimber operator pick it up for you so you can unhook it.  and have to hang up your 14 ft choker so you don't run over it and break it in your chains.  bla bla bla...

Grapple machines are heavier which has some advantages and some draw backs. 
You need to pick whatever you think will work for you and just make it work.  Never a perfect machine for everything.

[killamplanes]

agree dual arch. I run a cable skidder. But i'm around grapple skidders. U need to make sure it's big enough to be equipped for a grapple. like the 548. there alright but for massive cottonwood white oak etc. day in day out 648 would be better. my opinion watch ur neighbors see what there using and copy of them.  I like the smaller skidder for what I do. I can easily trailer it and I tend to do smaller jobs. Couple 100 trees is a good size job for me. And remember theres a lot of rotten apples on the tree u will need to dig pretty hard to find one worth pickin. good luck

[mills]

I agree with with Spartan. Grapple with a winch will be more efficient. There will always be logs that can't be reached with a grapple. Especially on select cut jobs.

[danbuendgen]

I agree with with Spartan. Grapple with a winch will be more efficient. There will always be logs that can't be reached with a grapple. Especially on select cut jobs.

I job that I am on now is a heavy cut, and all the jobs that I am looking at are heavy also. The foresters are seeing the need to mow down the low grade and keep a few nice trees here and there for seed. Thanks for the replys. Im looking a lot of them online but am liking that look of these to tell me what you think:

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/11817051/1990-timberjack-380b?dlr=1&pcid=388824&sfc=0&ssc=0&src=0&sps=0&ftr=0 They would take 11k for this one. They emailed me and it sounds like all the pins are lose, and it was a fair amount of leaks... I like it because its cheap and a dual arch. I have 25k cash to work with, this would give me over 10k in cash after for fixing up the grapple skidder or putting tlc into my 240.

https://syracuse.craigslist.org/hvo/5575512856.html I offered him 15k cash and he is thinking about it. I like how this has the detroit diesel. My skidder mechanic says no way does it have the 471 and its gotta be the 453 and they dont know what they are talking about. It looks clean too, good tires, but no chains...

http://binghamton.craigslist.org/hvo/5603428724.html This guy is thinking about his bottom dollar price. He says it starts and runs good, centers have a tiny bit of play.

I am looking at a little smaller machines, I would like a 460 TJ but cant find on in my price range,  I need something in the 25k and under price range. The plus with a smaller skidder would be that I have it moved with out a semi and low bed if possible. I have a guy that moves my 240 with is tandem dump and flat bed trailer for cheap.

Any input would be great, thanks for the replys so far!

[danbuendgen]

They like fuel, but it's a trade off. I go thru 100gal every other day between timbco, slasher, grapple and now delimber. Wouldn't go back to cable and a chainsaw for anything.

100 gallons for 4 machines in 2 days, that seems pretty good.

I work alone, cant find anyone that works hard, does good work, wont beat on my skidders, and that I can get along with day in and day out. So I chop for about 1/2 the day and pull hitches for the other half. Or when I had my Franklin forwarder, pick up/forward for half the day.

I am also looking at this Rottne Rapid SMV forwarder, Its leaky, a/c is not working, and Nortrax cant tell me much about it. It started right up and moves around the yard good. I have a tight landing, and have 3 or 4 years worth of work on this one job (500 acres), and 1/2 my operation is split firewood, so a forwarder would be good to keep wood clean and sort a small landing, I would like a forwarder, but I am worried about the thing is a piece of junk and I would be having electrical issues and too much downtime... But, Its the only 6wd forwarder in my price range. This is why I started looking at cheaper grapple skidders...Anyways,
Heres the link:

http://nortrax.com/getdoc/0cf4bc00-62f3-4301-a5d5-8fefcbdc152b/Rottne-SMV-RAPID-1995-106183

I am currently trying to find there bottom dollar for the machine..

[HiTech]

For what it is worth. I know a guy who has a TJ grapple skidder and he took the grapple off and put a winch on. Where he cuts, the trees were marked too far apart for the grapple to work efficiently. He then bought an 8 wheel forwarder and that cost him a ton of $$$. Used and needed repairs. He said that still wasn't the answer so he sold that. Back to his skidder and cable he went. He told me if he was following a cutter that laid the trees in piles then the grapple would be great but for a tree here and there it was a pain. Personally I always wanted a 548 grapple/winch setup. I know where there is one and it is like factory new yet. The paint hasn't wore off the tire chains. The old guy that has it pulls a few saw logs and some fire wood every year and that is it. If he gets a little mud on it he washes it off. lol I don't think there is 500 hrs on the machine. I drool every time I go by it.

[Mountaynman]

my buddy has an older rotttne at wing truck and trailer up your way did a bunch of work to it before he sent it up for sale not sure what they are asking for it but give them a call

[RHP Logging]

Dan-I was just pointing out that you may have more of a niche then you think.  There is still a place for hand cutters in the world regardless of how the wood gets to the landing.  I think you'll be wrenching on that rottne you posted a lot.  We've got all kinds of 6 wheel forwarders here but you're going to spend 40+ to get em.  I'm sure that's what you've got out there.

[danbuendgen]

my buddy has an older rotttne at wing truck and trailer up your way did a bunch of work to it before he sent it up for sale not sure what they are asking for it but give them a call

Thanks for the info, but....

I looked at it twice, and Im not interested for the price, the door wont close its all smashed up, no heat or a/c, lots of leaks, the whole engine compartment is one huge mouse nest and there are burnt up wires all over it, the engine panels are held together with a bungee cord... the air filter looked like it has never been changed, when I ran the loader, it would swing left fast, and right very very very slow. It only reaches 16 feet. The radiator leaks, The first time I looked at it, it would not start up with out starting fluid at 70*! And has a fair amount of blow by for a motor with (supposedly) 700 hours. No tracks or chains and poor tires, no blade, the in cab wiring is all over the place just hanging out. It has lots of leaks under the belly pan, and they are firm on 22k. If I could get it for 15k, I would, but they wont take it. Talk to your buddy and see if he would go for less... then I would pick it up, I have cash to work with.

[danbuendgen]

Dan-I was just pointing out that you may have more of a niche then you think.  There is still a place for hand cutters in the world regardless of how the wood gets to the landing.  I think you'll be wrenching on that rottne you posted a lot.  We've got all kinds of 6 wheel forwarders here but you're going to spend 40+ to get em.  I'm sure that's what you've got out there.

I know there is a place hand cutting, I still plan to do so, I just want to way to mechanically handle small, low grade wood. Forwarder or grapple skidder.

I understand the niche thing, but there are a lot of cable skidder guys in S. VT still, but more and more are going mechanized, cable guys are not a niche around here and the mechanized guys can pay a lot more then cable guys for low grade wood dew to the volume. And there is so much low grade wood to remove, its hard to make a living with a chain saw and cable skidder cutting pulp and low grade logs.... And "good" jobs are getting very rare. Thanks for the input though.

[RHP Logging]

I get that. Low grade and small wood sucks with a cable machine.  Add hills and I bet its tough to make money handcutting.

[Spartan]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but a grapple would probably have a better resale if you ever got rid of it.

[Big Rooster]

Can't believe no one mentioned a swinger.  Find a TJ 450c or Deere 648 with an Esco 212 swinger.  Most times they have a winch too.  For hand sawing and skidding it is the only way to go.  It can't pick up huge buncher piles but you can bundle up 3-10 hand cut trees and off you go.  One thing to remember your gonna burn way more fuel not because it is a grapple machine but due to the fact that you will be running non stop while skidding.  Think of how much time now on your skidder is idle time while you hook and unhook chokers.  Don't worry about the fuel as that means you are moving wood.  My TJ 450 uses about 20-25 gallons a day on handsawn wood and 30-40 gallons a day on buncher piles.

[finding the trail]

 I have both a cable and grapple machines (540, 548 )   Both machines have their pros and cons but if I were to pick one for the type of wood I cut, it would be the cable machine.  Both machines are 2013 models with low hours the only difference is the 548 has 28L rubber. Like you, I always wanted to experiment with a grapple machine, and with the current market conditions for this machine it was now or never.   Some jobs the grapple is more efficient and vice versa. The 540 came with extra high arch and it is amazing how much more wood this machine will pull compared to the standard size arch I had on my last 540 machine.

[danbuendgen]

I have both a cable and grapple machines (540, 548 )   Both machines have their pros and cons

Is your grapple machine a dual arch? Where does your cable machine do well, and where does the grapple do better?

Again, I will be needing a machine for a large job, 500 acres mostly a heavy cut in low grade. Its Vermont, so plenty of grades to climb also.

I just spoke with the guy selling that Rottne Forwarder, there bottom dollar is 22k as is where is. Im thinking that may be a good machine for my needs, Long skid, small wood, and small landing, It might be a lemon, or with some TLC it could be a good machine. They are going to be putting me in contact with the last owner.

Thanks for all the reply's so far!

[finding the trail]

 My grapple skidder is NOT a dual arch.   The positive's of the enclosed cab are you turn on the heat or AC depending on the season, take off the gloves, listen to the radio and pull wood. You generally make more turns in a day but less wood per turn. Of course you use more fuel per day and work a little longer as you don't get as tired climbing on and off pulling cable, hooking and unhooking trees.   If you know of rain or bad weather the next day or so you can put down wood then spend the bad day pulling wood in essence you don't have as much down time weather related.  If the landing is plugged you can prebunch . Just lots of flexability with the grapple machine. The cable machine is meat and potatoes, a no frills, go at it, get it done machine. Depending on a lot of factors I pick one machine or the other to match the job.

[danbuendgen]

I assumed that both your skidders were enclosed cabs being 2013's. I like the idea of working rain days in a cab with the wood ready to go...

[finding the trail]

 The grapple has glass all around (climate controlled ) the cable is a third glass the rest screened.  I used to be a real bean counter in logging matters. Understanding the correlation of productivity and profitability will make the right machine pay for itself.