The Forestry Forum

Hello folks, just found this site, and so far, it seems there is a lot of experience and wealth of knowledge here. Lets get started shall we?

So, I will be buying my metal and some start off stuff ( 26" wheels, 2" blade guides, carriage wheels from cooks sawmill) to build roughly, a 65"-68" cut width mill. 
I want to go full hydraulic, from powering the drive wheel via direct coupling, to the raise/lower and carriage feed system. I have an 18hp v-twin engine horizontal shaft, and a 23hp vertical shaft. I went to the local hydraulic shop to inquire about motors/pumps and evidently, the 18 and 23 is to small. Any recommendations as to pony motor size? i was thinking running between a 20 and 30 GPM pump, which should give enough flow to drive wheels and carriage, with enough left over to raise/lower the head. I want to go diesel, but diesel is heavy, but yet it has plenty of torque, which is what is needed to drive enough fluid or pull through a cut. But finding a used diesel, is pricey, so i was thinking of going to a 22R gas engine out of an old toyota p/u or car. 

The motor seems to be the starting point of where i need to start my build, even though i can layout and weld the frame, carriage and saw head, without a way to power the head and wheels, it seems kinda moot to even buy the metal and parts.
Any suggestions? 
So far, Im into this build at nearly $5,000 in metal and parts, and thats before a power source or a raise/lower mechanism, which the raise/lower will be my next inquiry.

Thanks in advance

Welcome to the forum.
Ron

Quote from: ronwood on August 18, 2018, 01:38:02 PM
Welcome to the forum.
Ron

Thank you Sir.

 With a hydraulic motor powering the band (I'd go with a 50+ diesel with a belt drive triple pulley) cutting 65" wide you'd need a 75hp diesel unless you want to cut REAL slow.  For up - down a worm gearbox hooked to roller chains  powered by a hyd motor with a high enough ratio to hold the head weight when off .   If using a hyd cylinder for up - down it might want to drift down unless there was a check valve to prevent that. Steve

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, charles mann!

Welcome to the Forum. You are going to have parasitic loss by powering the band via a hydraulic motor, and you will need a lot of cooling capacity for the oil. Even with a motor driven band you are probably talking at least a 75 HP turbo diesel. I would put a bit more study into the proven designs out there before going the route you are suggesting. 

The effiency of driving a big high speed load like a sawblade with hydraulics is the killer.

I'd suggest using one of you motors to drive the sawhead directly with a 99% efficient belt drive.

Then the other motor can be set up on the frame with hydraulics / big alternator and that drives the log loader, rollers, toe boards, carriage drive and head lift (electric?). Those loads are either intermittent, slower or smaller , and are best suited to hydraulics.

Pity the larger motor is vertical shaft, not really practical with a band saw. But it would cut, and leave space to upgrade it later if needed.

 With hydraulics you don't need a big alternator, also a deck mounted motor running a hydraulic pump is the way to go for the deck hydraulics .  You could raise the head with a electric motor but I'd put a small hydraulic pump on the main motor to raise the head, if you made that remotely controlled no need for a energy chain or cord reel.  Steve

Quote from: Ianab on August 18, 2018, 03:56:11 PM
The effiency of driving a big high speed load like a sawblade with hydraulics is the killer.

I'd suggest using one of you motors to drive the sawhead directly with a 99% efficient belt drive.

Then the other motor can be set up on the frame with hydraulics / big alternator and that drives the log loader, rollers, toe boards, carriage drive and head lift (electric?). Those loads are either intermittent, slower or smaller , and are best suited to hydraulics.

Pity the larger motor is vertical shaft, not really practical with a band saw. But it would cut, and leave space to upgrade it later if needed.

Would using the vertical still work, but rigging up a series of deep groove pulleys to change the angle from vertical, to horizontal? I can see it my head, but putting it to paper in a manner suitable for others to understand, is out of my wheel house. 
Iv seen old stem piwered engines do that, but those flat belts were LONG. 

I have an 18hp opposed (not V) twin B&S running a 158" x 1¼" blade (.042), belted drive on electric clutch.  I can cut a 30" pine log with some difficulty.  My mill can cut up to 42".  It does really well at 24" and below so 18hp (or 23hp) is not going to cut it for you.  If your cut is twice my "ok" cut I'd say you'd need at least 35hp!  You are going to need a big blade (1½ x .050) and a lot of tension to keep your cuts straight.  How about an old VW air cooled engine?  Light with tons of power.

Quote from: ljohnsaw on August 18, 2018, 06:15:26 PM
I have an 18hp opposed (not V) twin B&S running a 158" x 1¼" blade (.042), belted drive on electric clutch.  I can cut a 30" pine log with some difficulty.  My mill can cut up to 42".  It does really well at 24" and below so 18hp (or 23hp) is not going to cut it for you.  If your cut is twice my "ok" cut I'd say you'd need at least 35hp!  You are going to need a big blade (1½ x .050) and a lot of tension to keep your cuts straight.  How about an old VW air cooled engine?  Light with tons of power.

I was looking at using either engine to drive a hydraulic pump, not drive the mill, then put a low rpm (700 rpm max) for the drive wheel and maybe same rpm for raise/lower and carriage motor. 

Quote from: Southside logger on August 18, 2018, 03:31:39 PM
Welcome to the Forum. You are going to have parasitic loss by powering the band via a hydraulic motor, and you will need a lot of cooling capacity for the oil. Even with a motor driven band you are probably talking at least a 75 HP turbo diesel. I would put a bit more study into the proven designs out there before going the route you are suggesting.

But would the parasitic loss be there even on a divorced drive motor and pulley system? As soon as the wheels are put in motion, drag is being placed on the engine (gas or diesel), and when the saw enters the material, more drag is added to the engine. Maybe im not understanding your definition of parasitic drag, im going off my knowledge of parasitic drag when it comes to flying. I know this isnt flying, which is why im asking what you are referring to as parasite drag in terms of turning the band cia hydraulic. 
As for cooling, i figure a 50-55 gal reservoir with a cooling fan pulling/pushing air across a cooler. 
Are you saying 75hp if i want to run everything via hydraulics, or some hydraulics and powering the band too? 
Cooks sawmill has a 62" wide mill, powered by, i think, a 38hp kohler engine, it may be a 37hp. 
You think 5" more of cut width will require double the hp? 
If so, i may go all electric then.
I was wanting to be mobile, use hydro cylinders to lift the bed, bolt my axles in place and retract and stow the cylinders till i get where im going, the deploy them again, take axles out and level the bed, then go to work. But mobility is mostly for my property, so i can move around to get it out of my way, which is why i wanted to go internal combustion, bc i dont have the room thats not water logged at times, close enough to my power pole, and i dont have 3ph, just single, which can be overcome by getting a phase converter. 

Quote from: ladylake on August 18, 2018, 03:02:33 PM
With a hydraulic motor powering the band (I'd go with a 50+ diesel with a belt drive triple pulley) cutting 65" wide you'd need a 75hp diesel unless you want to cut REAL slow.  For up - down a worm gearbox hooked to roller chains  powered by a hyd motor with a high enough ratio to hold the head weight when off .   If using a hyd cylinder for up - down it might want to drift down unless there was a check valve to prevent that. Steve

Im not looking at any production pace speed, just need to get these big pecans, walnuts, live and red oaks milled. Once these big logs are milled, i really wont have a need for a saw of my size. So fast speed isnt a factor and this is mostly for a hobby, and to eventually build my house. 
What type of clutches are out there to hold up to that much power off of these 50-75hp diesels? 
I was thinking of using maybe an old carburated 22R engine out of an yota, or similar out of datsun, but a clutch is the thing that is holding me up. I thought about using a regular clutch with plate and throw out bearing and the input shaft from a manual xmsn for that type gas engine. But i dont know. 

A brand new high quality hydraulic pump and motor is only about 80% efficient at best, much energy being given off as heat.  Worn out, youre down in the 60% range.  Pump leakage through the gear housing to gear clearance is a major issue in both the pump and motor. 

Right angle drive is the device one fellow was looking for.  Boston gear and many others make them in many ratios, face patterns and mounting patters.  Surplus center is likely cheapest place to shop for one.   

Mike beat me to explaining what I was referring to.  As far as your comparison to Cooks - look at it this way the 38 hp Cooks is not driving a hydraulic pump as well, depending on your PSI and GPM that could be a significant amount of HP draw just to run fluid in a circle.  

For a real world comparison my feller buncher has a 175 hp Cummins 6BT mated to a couple giant hydraulic pumps. I think the saw pump is 80 GPM @ 4000 PSI - serious oil.  Now obviously a sawmill is not cross cutting like a feller buncher is, and the feller buncher has  a 2.25" kerf - but the buncher also has a 1000+ lb saw disc that gives it significant inertia.  That being said if I cut a 24" tree and go into it too fast I will stall the disc out.  In part because the relief does it's job and protects the circuit and in part because I have exceeded what that much oil can push steel through.  So everything has a limit - and my machine has a 75 gallon dedicated hydraulic tank for the saw pump and a dedicated cooler with a 20" or so fan.  

Now you say that you are not interested in production speed sawing - well there is a catch there too.  If you saw below the ideal speed of your bands then you will generate excess heat on your band which will impact band tension, band life, and cut quality.  You will also have excess sawdust remaining on your boards which will lead to additional work for you all the while it is shortening overall band life and economy.  So just like flying there are ideal parameters that you really want to remain within.  Not saying you can't be successful outside of those parameters, the question is at what cost.  

Quote from: charles mann on August 18, 2018, 07:43:58 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on August 18, 2018, 06:15:26 PM
I have an 18hp opposed (not V) twin B&S running a 158" x 1¼" blade (.042), belted drive on electric clutch.  I can cut a 30" pine log with some difficulty.  My mill can cut up to 42".  It does really well at 24" and below so 18hp (or 23hp) is not going to cut it for you.  If your cut is twice my "ok" cut I'd say you'd need at least 35hp!  You are going to need a big blade (1½ x .050) and a lot of tension to keep your cuts straight.  How about an old VW air cooled engine?  Light with tons of power.

I was looking at using either engine to drive a hydraulic pump, not drive the mill, then put a low rpm (700 rpm max) for the drive wheel and maybe same rpm for raise/lower and carriage motor.

Others got to what I was hinting at.  To cut the width with a decent finish, you would need double the power I have with direct drive.  Going the hydraulic route, add another 30 to 50% more hp due to system losses.

Thought about just going with a chainsaw slabber for the oversize stuff instead?

The 23 hp vertical shaft would be ideal for driving a wide bar with super skip chain. Look at the commercial Peterson / Turbosaw / Lucas machines to get the idea. Lucas make a completely portable machine that can cut 9ft wide. You loose a bit on the wider kerf, but may gain that back on the more accurate cuts, simpler maintenance and engineering. 

Quote from: Ianab on August 19, 2018, 12:51:06 AM
Thought about just going with a chainsaw slabber for the oversize stuff instead?

The 23 hp vertical shaft would be ideal for driving a wide bar with super skip chain. Look at the commercial Peterson / Turbosaw / Lucas machines to get the idea. Lucas make a completely portable machine that can cut 9ft wide. You loose a bit on the wider kerf, but may gain that back on the more accurate cuts, simpler maintenance and engineering.

i had thought of that, but didn't think about using the pony motor/s to drive the chain, i was thinking of my 661, or upgrading to the 880, or even trying to find an old 090, but the bars is where it got difficult. i couldn't find many bars in the 60"-72" range, other than processor bars and the prices were a bit on the steep side, and as rare as 60"-65" pecans, or 46" black walnuts, i wanted to limit the waste in saw chips. in 8 cuts, that equals a 2" slab, wasted in chips. in addition, i would have to buy the granberg 72" milling kit. i have a 36", but never could find a method, that i built at least, that would provide a "true" cut. the 2 different rails i built, would flex under the weight of my jonsered 2166 and definitely under the weight of that 661, which left me with uneven thickness slabs. my next attempt was to use a fiberglass ladder, which might work well on logs, but not for some of the other stuff i wanted to mill. 
1 of the pecans i have to mill, was stuck by lightening, where the canopy section starts. it blew out, and burned a section out that, when filled with bar top epoxy, will make a nice bench, and using the curved limbs from the black walnut, doing a 2 side live edge, for the legs. it would be literally, 1 of a kind. looking at the lucas mill, it might just work for my needs, then i don't need to build anything. 
thanks for the info sir. 

Quote from: Southside logger on August 18, 2018, 11:27:32 PM
Mike beat me to explaining what I was referring to.  As far as your comparison to Cooks - look at it this way the 38 hp Cooks is not driving a hydraulic pump as well, depending on your PSI and GPM that could be a significant amount of HP draw just to run fluid in a circle.  

For a real world comparison my feller buncher has a 175 hp Cummins 6BT mated to a couple giant hydraulic pumps. I think the saw pump is 80 GPM @ 4000 PSI - serious oil.  Now obviously a sawmill is not cross cutting like a feller buncher is, and the feller buncher has  a 2.25" kerf - but the buncher also has a 1000+ lb saw disc that gives it significant inertia.  That being said if I cut a 24" tree and go into it too fast I will stall the disc out.  In part because the relief does it's job and protects the circuit and in part because I have exceeded what that much oil can push steel through.  So everything has a limit - and my machine has a 75 gallon dedicated hydraulic tank for the saw pump and a dedicated cooler with a 20" or so fan.  

Now you say that you are not interested in production speed sawing - well there is a catch there too.  If you saw below the ideal speed of your bands then you will generate excess heat on your band which will impact band tension, band life, and cut quality.  You will also have excess sawdust remaining on your boards which will lead to additional work for you all the while it is shortening overall band life and economy.  So just like flying there are ideal parameters that you really want to remain within.  Not saying you can't be successful outside of those parameters, the question is at what cost.  

actually, you explained your reference pretty good here. i don't know much on the hydraulic side of things, beyond wrenching on my acft, which has hydraulics for the flight control system and some of the utility systems, but we are running 3000 psi normal, 3300 for engine start up, but those are very LOW gpm. since we added an internal water tank for wildfire fighting, we have a pump that drives a motor that sucks roughly 45 gal a sec, which takes a LOT of power, especially when the tank has 1000 gal in it and now the motor has to push through 8000 lbs of water head pressure, through a 10" diameter corrugated poly hose. 
you all have given me a lot to think about and some great advise, and since this kind of thing is out of my wheel house, its wise to heed the advise and recommendations of those with more experience. 
what about running a 4 cylinder gas engine out of a car/pick up, it would be lighter than a diesel, with probably double the hp yaw are saying i may need, but the trade off, i loose about half the torque the diesels produce. and I'm not talking staying with the hydraulic system, but in general, and iv seen small gas burners running 1/4-1/2 the price of a new 37-38hp air cooled gasser. 
i may just scrap this whole plan, pay a guy in austin that has the woodmizer wm1000 and can mill everything i currently need milling, for around $1000, and maybe less by doing some bartering, and building a mill with a cut size of 40".
i want to get my ducks in a row before dumping money into a project, that may fail after 6 months, mostly bc big trees are becoming more scarce every year. 
again, thank you, and the rest of the folks who have commented and left their advise and recommendations. I'm glad i found this site and asked, before dumping 1000s of $ into a possible titanic failure. 

Long bars cost $$, this is true. This is why large slabs also cost $$. No matter what you use to cut them, it costs. 

Woodmizer makes a great slabbing bandsaw, but it costs ~50k. It's a beast of a machine, and you can see why it costs that. 

The portable chainsaw slabbers start around $10k, Need to recover a LOT more slabs to make up the extra investment, AND it's not exactly portable. 

If you have the budget to build a working ~48" band mill, then a chainsaw mill on a similar carriage should be relatively simple. Not talking about a chainsaw powerhead. Think BIG bar, powered by a vertical 4 stroke, via an idler shaft to get the chain speed right. 

In a sawmill application torque is your friend, thus why electric is the answer with industrial sized equipment. I am not convinced a 22r would perform the way you are hoping it will. My guess is they produce their top HP at an RPM that is a long way out of the torque curve, so when she needs that extra to get through twisted grain or big knots it just might not have the ability to muscle through without dropping off on RPM's to a point where it's too slow for the band.

Not trying to discourage your project, but if you have access to an experienced sawyer with a WM1000 and $1K will do the job you need then unless you are building this beast for the challenge then that is a much more economical solution.

Southside, 
The low tq at rpm speed is what i thinking too, there wouldnt be enough. I think ill go with a 40-50hm diesel, belt drive for the band and put a pump/motor for the rasie/lower and carriage trolley. 

well, iv located several engines, a 44hp kubota diesel, a 67hp perkins, already attached to a hydraulic power unit (not going hydraulic band wheel drive though) and a cummins 4bt. the cummins is $1000 per cylinder, but local for me, but still the last choice if possible, the others are either in northern idaho, or just across the border in washington and they are closer to my price range.

I am sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions, but i have been given a LOT of GREAT advise, i will follow/learn from those who have been down that road before. Iv gotten to where i look at things in the perspective of "you get what you pay for" and skimping on things can and most often DO lead to negative consequences. So following yaws advise, I'm dropping the hydraulic drive option and going conventional. "Why reinvent the wheel?" as the saying goes.

I still may run hydraulics for the carriage drive and maybe for the raise/lower, unless 12 vdc would be better. Which is where the question of chain/sprocket or pulley/belt comes to play.  
Now that I'm not going hydraulic drive for the band, which would be recommended, chain and sprocket drive or belt and pulley drive?
 
I'm sure, after reading a few replies, that more than 1 belt, and assuming more than 1 sprocket will be required on the drive wheel. Going chain, if something happens, i could go to tractor supply for the weekend break downs, or the john deere dealer during the week days and get chain and possibly sprocket. Which is why I'm leaning to chain/sprocket. 
Belts, i fear will have to be custom ordered, unless i build to what i can get locally at napa or john deere, or even the big rig service/parts centers locally, IF they even carry in stock the size (diameter/thickness, not length so much) belt. Im assuming and probably correct in my assumption, that normal automotive belts wont hold up to the stresses that will be encountered. But iv been wrong many times before on things. That is how we learn, form our mistakes. 

Again, Thank You all for your help and advice. 
 

Hopefully some others will chime in on the engines here as I seem to recall some issues have been around the Perkins when used in a sawmill application - I want to say it's a side loading issue on the crank but never having owned one I could be off on that.  Baker uses a 4BT on their mills, and Woodmizer has plenty of Kubota engines running out there.

As far as the up / down, forward / reverse, the chain system on the Woodmizers works very well.  Up / down is a climbing motor on a fixed roller chain and the forward / reverse is off the hanging chain on the side of the frame with a gear pulling through the chain.  I know of a couple guys who had mills where the chain was mounted on top of the frame rail and sawdust / sticks / debris can be an issue getting jammed in there.  With both motors I would think that hydraulic will give you longer life and better vertical hold as your head won't be light when you are done.    

A hanging vertical chain is sort of a poor mans gear rack and pinion, not a bad design at all.  12vdc winch and cables  is another cheap and straightforward means.



However you choose to raise and lower, hold capacity is very important.  If you dont want to be setting a clamp brake with every height change, then you need a lot of gear reduction to hold.  Either worm drive gear box, winch motor planetary, or a positive lock such as a boat winch.  


Winch motors themselves are not terribly impressive without the planetary.  I am inclined to say v8 starter motors put out considerably more torque for a lot less money in direct drive and are a lot more available on sunday afternoon.  You can modify starter to run a pulley or sprocket pretty easy.  Delco 10MT is a real good platform to fool with imo.  Cheap and super easy to rebuild or mod.

A 12vdc reversing contactor is the name of the part you will want to make dc motors run two ways.  

What about using chain to drive the band wheels? 

Quote from: charles mann on August 20, 2018, 02:47:09 PM
What about using chain to drive the band wheels?

Would work well except that you need to keep it lubed and that is going to attract a LOT of sawdust.  I think there would be a sawdust build up problem - more so than v-belts sometimes get.  The maintenance would be a little higher with chain than v-belts.  On the positive side, it wouldn't slip!

Welcome to the forum charles mann.

A chain will be noisier than the a belt (thinking back to my motorcycling days) but it may not matter because the blade in the wood will be noisier than the chain.

Perhaps a plus of a chain will not need near as much tension as a belt which will put less side load on bearings.

I forget the exact "rules" for chain but there is a way to chose the sprocket sizes that works better for less vibration and longer wear. I'm thinking it is to avoid a tooth count that will divide evenly into each other. An example is a 6 tooth drive and a 24 tooth driven would cause more vibration and faster wear than if it was a 7tooth drive and a 24tooth driven. 

Unless you will continue to find extra large logs I would think hiring out the sawing for those ones could be a bargain, don't forget you have to transport those monsters too.

Helos can fly on piston engines too... but is it a good idea? Drive belts last a long time, barring some odd band break and they are actually cheap for the hours you get out of one. I would build your drive and connection to match with a commercially available triple belt and call it good.

The other issue is clutching a chain vs a belt which just slips into tension. You do need a weak point in the system and having a belt slip is a lot better than having a chain break apart at 2500 RPM.

Charles Mann, reading your thread made me think about this. Hydraulic driven bandwheel. 

Loglogic Autotrek Sawmill Promo Video - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDzc1xPwv7Q) 

Sorry for the annoying music. 

As for power plants, isn't there many us pickups fitted with 4BT engines? 

Quote from: Southside logger on August 20, 2018, 09:35:23 PM
Helos can fly on piston engines too... but is it a good idea? 

The other issue is clutching a chain vs a belt which just slips into tension. You do need a weak point in the system and having a belt slip is a lot better than having a chain break apart at 2500 RPM.

Helis have been flying on piston engines since the early 40s, and are still produced today. 
Turbines came into play bc of the power to weight ration. The engine on my hele is a lil over 4000 shp and weighs in around 1500 lbs wet and including the nose box. 
Belts are not out of the question, was just inquiring bout them and their longevity and drive cababilities over belts. 
Id stock an extra set of belts or chain and sprockets, which ever way i go. 

Quote from: Hilltop366 on August 20, 2018, 06:33:43 PM
Welcome to the forum charles mann.

A chain will be noisier than the a belt (thinking back to my motorcycling days) but it may not matter because the blade in the wood will be noisier than the chain.
 

Unless you will continue to find extra large logs I would think hiring out the sawing for those ones could be a bargain, don't forget you have to transport those monsters too.

I'm sure that diesel engine will drown out the chain noise, along with the band cutting through the wood.
trust, i haven't forgot about those big logs. iv loaded the black walnut 2x, red oak 4x and both my live oaks 2x already. my tractor with 3ooo# of lift wont even budge the pecan logs. since iv moved everything but the pecan to another location on my property, ill set my mill up by them first, mill them and haul them to my conex kiln a few boards at a time, since i have to haul them inside the conex 1 at a time. once that stuff is milled, ill put the axles under it and haul it over to the pecans and winch them to the mill since the logs are off the side of my driveway and i don't want to block it. 
i do have a place I'm harvesting red oak off of and there are 5 more trees in the 36"-42" range. once those are milled, ill relocate my idler wheel closer to the drive for anything under 36". 

Quote from: Satamax on August 20, 2018, 11:58:35 PM
As for power plants, isn't there many us pickups fitted with 4BT engines?

if there are, I'm not finding any, and the engine i am finding are 2000 miles away in the northwest or here in tx, they want a 1/4 of a gold bar for them. 2 appeared today, 1 running, but wants $3500 for it and the other 1, needs a starter, radiator, cooling hoses, alternator, wiring for the electrical system and he want $3000, but it comes with a spare head, 4000 rpm governor spring, 47RE xmsn, engine stand extra peanut cover, water pump and he said a bunch of other stuff, but didn't list it, just said to come to houston and take a look see. its had the p-pump turned up and the fire ringed the head. i have no use for the xmsn, but the stock head, water pump and peanut cover might come in handy.
 
hell, the price of either engine is already just under half the allocated build cost. I'm gonna have to pinch pennies to be able to buy the band wheels, guides, carriage wheels, and i haven't even gotten to the lifting of the head yet in my budgeting. 
i havent figured the lifting part out yet. i was thinking of using linear rails and guide bearings and either 1.5" or 2" acme rod, and still might, but i also thought about welding up a box to go around the carriage vertical support beams and bolting on 1/4" UHMW on all 4 side of each beam and drill/ tap for a grease zerk fitting and scrubbers to clean the UHMW as the head moves up or down. when UHMW is wet/greased, it is slicker than owl poop on a hickory limb
i may go as some have mentioned, winch cable, but instead of the electric winch, go hydraulic winch. 
there are a LOT of small things in haven't worked out yet, gonna play it by ear as i build and keep reading and asking questions. i just can't read what someone types and understand it, nor hear the words and put it together. i am a monkey see, monkey do kind of monkey. 

CharlesCharles, nother source of engines, old farm equipement. Old combines, tractors, backhoes etc. 

Quote from: Satamax on August 21, 2018, 02:38:30 PM
CharlesCharles, nother source of engines, old farm equipement. Old combines, tractors, backhoes etc.

thank you for your insight. i followed your advise and started looking, but folks are wanting as much for them old tractors/equipment as 1 of the motors mentioned above. i decided to inquire about the running unit, and the guy said it was a ground power cart from an airport and that he would sell it for 3k just to get rid of it. i figure before separating the motor, id see about getting the power cart fixed, producing electricity, and then divorce the motor and put an electric motor in place of the diesel and use the electrical side at my hanger, or maybe sell it, depending what it will cost to make spark. thank you for your input. i hadn't thought about old farm/construction equipment. 

Sorry a little late to this. There is/was a Logmaster LM5 on Ebay. They ran the band with hyd, you may want to take a look and call LM for advise.

Sorry just looked at Ebay and did not see it.

 The LM5 is using a 85 HP Cummins with maybe 60 hp to the blade.  Steve

30gpm at 2000psi is gonna want 40 hp (at below 3000rpm, preferably 2000 rpm ) plus substantial cooling and a whole lot of 1" hoses.  Its gonna be a serious project.  


Id look at refer takoff units for a 3 cylinder steady state governed diesel.  Find a running thermoking on CL or a truck wrecker.  Youll get the motor, radiator and sufficient cooling all in one tidy unit. Just get your pump, tank and return filters grafted into the cabinet and itll look pretty sharp. 

For salvage hydraulics, scrapped bean pickers, trenchers, fairway mowers and tennant sweepers have a lot of otherwise very expensive high end compentry you wouldnt find elsewhere that are adaptable to debarking and sawing.  The old stuff all ran popular american branded componentry that is still generally rebuildable.  Eaton charlynn vickers sunstrand etc etc

I have a straight six high output 4.0 liter out of a Jeep. Complete. TBI. I keep trying to find a good place to use it since I can't seem to sell it to anyone.

Thought about putting a generator head on it and converting everything on the mill to run electric.

Build a doodlebug. 

? doodlebug? you should see what comes up when you google that :)

Yup, we called Antlions "Doodlebugs".

Any chance that is the same thing as a Jitterbug?

Maybe its a yankee term?  

Home made truck tractor, typically was model A's way back when.  These days it tends to be an old 2ton truck.  Dual transmissions, minimal tin, tractor tires or chained up duals, etc. 

Quote from: Southside logger on August 24, 2018, 09:08:04 PM
Any chance that is the same thing as a Jitterbug?

It's a dance, a fishing lure, and a cheap cell phone, but I can not find any Jitterbug insect. :P

Mike pretty well described it. Basically it's any older vehicle, usually 4WD that has become a woods buggy and has the scars to prove it. Won't have any glass, very little sheet metal, no exhaust, probably has head lights of some sort, and big tires.

That saying did not make it to my Yankee land.  ;D   

To me, a doodle bug is what we called an early minibike.   Muggs

Quote from: thecfarm on August 25, 2018, 05:44:02 AM
That saying did not make it to my Yankee land.  ;D  

Which is suprising since i thought maine was the source of all rural NH/central mass culture.  And by that i mean cull-chah bub.  Ayessaahhh.  

Quote from: tacks Y on August 24, 2018, 08:08:59 AM
Sorry a little late to this. There is/was a Logmaster LM5 on Ebay. They ran the band with hyd, you may want to take a look and call LM for advise.

Heck, that place isn't far from where i grew up, well, i guess i have yet to grow up, but where i was born and raised. its the town just north and across the river from my old living location. 
i guess i shoulda paid more attention to this thread, guess i missed your comment as most of the time during this thread, i was viewing it over my ancient iPhone 5.
i will call them tomorrow and see if they can help shed a little light on this subject. especially due to the weight of that lil 4bt power plant.
This is for any and all to chime in.
Now, to bring this topic back up. I sourced my own lil 4bt, putting out 100hp at 2200 RPMs. when i decided to go belt drive and give up on the hydraulic option, i didn't think twice about this. 
with the weight of the lil eng at nearly 700# dry, not counting cooling system and fuel tank. this mill will be very top heavy. Would putting the pwr plant, cooling, fuel and hydraulic system on the back end of my bunks and run a caterpillar hydraulic track down the outside of my bunk rails be better than mounting all that weight on my saw beam/carriage platform?
Another reason I'm looking at going back to the hydraulic option is, a clutch unit that will take 100+hp, without using a conventional auto/construction/industrial equipment clutch, pressure plate and throw bearing. 

Bandsaw right? 

Motor on the carriage can be done by beefing up the rollers and roller axles and supporting the chassis better to prevent bowing as the gantry rides down the rails. 

Mounting the motor stationary will mean a fortune in hydraulic hoses and flexible cable carrier to bring fluid power to the saw drive wheels and height control. They will always be susceptible to fork or log injury and sun degradation.  

Youll have to weigh it out as to which problem you can manage easier.  


ZoomBoom material handlers and old genie snorkel lifts both ran 4BT.  I think LULL also used them for a while.  The ZB and lull probably used a driveshaft to a powershift trans and tcase but im just about certain that the snorkel lift took all power from a hydraulic pump off the crank and may have the parts youd need for coupling.  

Another source would be rock crushing and screening equipment and maybe truck reefers such as thermo king.  They couple directly to a compressor head but are so plentiful that you may be able to source some scrapped parts to modify.  I think TK runs isuzus so its kind of a wild goose chase.  Oh tow behind air compressors ran them too.  You really need to find an old diesel shop and raid their storage shed.  Unfortunately 4BT is a very expensive engine to fool with.   Isuzu, deutz, detroit even kubota seem a lot more affordable. 

Theres a guy in north vermont or NY thats always advertised cummins engines on CL in that region... Its all he does and would probably know everything they came in and every configuration. 

...actually good chance he has the parts you need.  Parting out a hydraulic unit then selling the engine for someones rat rod with a standard bell adapter is an easy way to make money. 

Another option with the all hydraulic setup is a pantograph with hard hydraulic lines and short hoses at the joints. Takes up a lot of room but works fine. Pretty much a fixed installation.

Is that the double jib boom jointed together for carrying hoses and wires?  

Mike, 
The carriage will be a 6 post design, 4 posts with a carriage wheel at ea post, then 2 more posts to run the saw head up and down. All 6 posts will be 3" x 3" x 0.250" with bracings all corners. I may even "X" brace the back post to the saw head posts. 
When i get back to the hotel tonight, ill sketch out what im talking about. 
I may even go to 6 carriage wheels, if i go with the engine on the carriage instead of on the log bunk. 

Also got ahold of the builders of the LM5/6 that was mentioned earlier, and was invited to the shop to take a look at how/what they build their stuff out of. Unfortunately, they dont build the hydraulic mills anymore, but he says their LM 1 is a smaller, manual version of their hydraulic units. 

If youre gonna put 6 wheels, consider warpage during welding and the possibility that all 6 wont touch the track at once.  If the carriage rocks itll show up in the cut.  When you weld on one side at the center of a span, that member always curls toward the heat.  Maybe the middle wheels should be bolted on.  Youll figure it out.. Just keep warpage and wheel plane in mind. 

Quote from: mike_belben on September 06, 2018, 08:11:20 AM
Bandsaw right?

Motor on the carriage can be done by beefing up the rollers and roller axles and supporting the chassis better to prevent bowing as the gantry rides down the rails.

Mounting the motor stationary will mean a fortune in hydraulic hoses and flexible cable carrier to bring fluid power to the saw drive wheels and height control. They will always be susceptible to fork or log injury and sun degradation.  


Theres a guy in north vermont or NY thats always advertised cummins engines on CL in that region... Its all he does and would probably know everything they came in and every configuration.

Yes sir, bandsaw.

I'm going to attach, or try to attach a pic of what the carriage is going to look like. it is from Matt Creamona's design plans i bought from him.
 
Do you have a contact for this guy you are referring to?
where it is highlighted on the motor/gb for the head raise lower. pretend that motor is not there, and mentally draw in an X brace attaching the middle support tubing, on both sides, to the rear support tubing.
 
I was also thinking of putting saw head beam in the front of the carriage and leaving the center support tubing in place and putting a additional guide rail on those support tubings to help disperse the load of the engine, cooling system, 10-20 gal fuel tank and blade cooling tank. 
Plus if i go hydraulic, ill need a 30-40 gal hydraulic tank mounted up there too. 
Main reason for going back to the hydraulic option, even if i use a clutch and 3 belt pulleys is, its hard, at least for me, to find a clutch that will hold up to the 100hp the engine is rated at. 
If anyone has a suggestion on a clutch system rated for 100hp, I'm all ears and open to ideas and suggestions. 

OK, its not letting me attach a pdf doc for the visual reference. I will draw in the X brace, best i can on the printed out page, take a pic of it, and upload it that way.

mike, trying the pdf doc again.

Quote from: mike_belben on September 06, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
If youre gonna put 6 wheels, consider warpage during welding and the possibility that all 6 wont touch the track at once.  If the carriage rocks itll show up in the cut.  When you weld on one side at the center of a span, that member always curls toward the heat.  Maybe the middle wheels should be bolted on.  Youll figure it out.. Just keep warpage and wheel plane in mind.

had already thought of that. put the first 4 wheels in place as instructed on the plans for this mill. 
Once the carriage is in place, set, mark, lift carriage, and install the last 2 wheels.
As for warpage from welding, i plan to weld 1" beads, opposing each other, then moving to the other side of the build, in the same section. say, I'm welding the X braces in, looking at the carriage with saw head to my right, weld the top left upper o/b, then move to the top left, lower i/b. as those cool, move to the far side and do the same, then come back and do the top right upper o/b, top right lower i/b and go back to the other side. rinse and repeat till its fully welded.    
I will use my mig with gas shielding instead of my 225 bobcat, mostly for the noise reduction of the wire welder compared to the screaming engine of the bobcat, plus having to knock off the flux each time before striking the arc again. 

If no need to be mobile.

saw mill , home made saw - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S4J0xd--i4&t=80s)

Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 06, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
If no need to be mobile.

saw mill , home made saw - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S4J0xd--i4&t=80s)

Ill watch vid when i get back to hotel, but i would like to have ability to be mobile. I know the width of the saw head will be beyond or rite at the 102" limit. If beyond, ill have to be able to move either the band wheels inside the 102", or pick the carriage up and turn it 90 degrees, sitting it on my log bunk. 

He is sawing SYP so I wonder where in the South that is?  

Rather than a clutch, why not use a tension / release, hinged plate system similar to the "auto clutch" on Woodmizer mills? 

Vermont CL, search "cummins" and he is the one in wolcott.  Pic of engines lined up inside a building. 

Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 06, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
If no need to be mobile.

saw mill , home made saw - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S4J0xd--i4&t=80s)

i do like that. i guess i don't have to be mobile, and if not, it won't cost NEAR as much to build. the log bunk and carriage metal alone is $2700. i can probably get 2 25' 12" I beams and a BUNCH (15-20) 7' 6" I beams for a little over scrap steel price ($500-$600) and he even has metal wheel carts that he will probably throw in, just to get rid of them. Or i could even buy carriage wheels from cook's sawmill and build my own cart/s. I AM liking that guys set up. 
Is he running the drive wheel via a pto shaft and angle gearbox? it looks like the pwr unit is at a 45 degree angle and the gb is a box off 1 of those batwing mower. don't have an old batwing, but I'm sure i could locate 1, and i could get an old drive shaft from an auto salvage yard. 
even take a 1/4 to 1/2 hp electric motor and reduce the speed with a reduction gb to pull the cart. 
Thanks for showing me this. It has given me an idea, 1 that i might go for.

Quote from: mike_belben on September 06, 2018, 10:22:26 PM
Vermont CL, search "cummins" and he is the one in wolcott.  Pic of engines lined up inside a building.

Mike, Thanks for the info. will look him up. 

Quote from: Southside logger on September 06, 2018, 10:17:07 PM
Rather than a clutch, why not use a tension / release, hinged plate system similar to the "auto clutch" on Woodmizer mills?

are you talking about a tension pulley, similar to like the idler pulley for a serpentine belt on a car/tck? If so, it IS a tried and proven method. 
I was kicking that idea around too. 
Just worried that, 
1. the belts not having tension on them will burn the belt up as the engine is sitting there running, spinning the pulley and burning flat spots on the belts. 
2. engaging the pulleys with that much hp will be tough and rough on the belts during engagement. 
I KNOW this isn't an aircraft, but as soon as the engine is fired up on these belt driven helicopters iv been flying, the clutch MUST begin tightening to prevent burning of the belts at the engine side of the drive system. 
I have looked into even copying the Schweizer design, using a linear motor to pull the belts tight, with a limit switch to open the circuit, stopping the actuator form moving and allowing for the actuator to engage and re-tension the belts as they become loose. 
1 big draw back to that style, even the robinson R22/44 design of actuation is, it SLOW to fully engage. which means engagement/disengagement during operation is out of the question, unless i want to wait the 30-45 sec for engagement/disengagement. 
I WILL put an emergency kill button on it, running to the injector pump solenoid kill switch. 
I like this site and all you folks. Yaw are full of GREAT ideas and suggestions and a very homey climate to converse and share ideas. 
  

 

So, after watching the majority of the vid. it IS a bush hog gb, with a implement pto shaft, both of which i have laying around from my old land pride shredder, coupled to an old auto drive shaft, on an engine with a xmsn. THIS i can build with ease and for a LOT less than what its going to cost me to build a conventional run of, no pun intended, the mill sawmill.

I might have found my build. But dang i wanted to to be mobile. Central isn't really booming with trees that need to be milled, and a 3hr drive from the pinewoods of east tx, i don't think getting customers to me would be easy. Granted I'm not looking at building a mill for production work, just as a hobby to offset the winter months during the off season of fire fighting, so i don't have to go to hippy central, oh, i mean portland oregon.  

See if you can get a close eye on a LT40 or larger with an auto clutch, the engine tilts via an actuator a few degrees to engage the drive. On a diesel or gas she is idled down and the throttle up happens as it engages, on an electric mill it's always at speed so she gives a decent chirp. That set up probably has over a billion starts on it and it does not tear up belts. 

Quote from: Southside logger on September 07, 2018, 12:39:11 AM
See if you can get a close eye on a LT40 or larger with an auto clutch, the engine tilts via an actuator a few degrees to engage the drive. On a diesel or gas she is idled down and the throttle up happens as it engages, on an electric mill it's always at speed so she gives a decent chirp. That set up probably has over a billion starts on it and it does not tear up belts.

well, those bottom figures sounds like a number I'm not gonna be scared of going to. instead of engaging the belts with an actuator, i could just tilt the engine and do the same. there is member on here that lives a few hrs from me, just south of tyler that has i think the lt 40 or 50. he invited me over to talk shop, along with den-den form lufkin. since I'm going to lufkin on my next break in 6 days, ill swing by den-den's place and visit with him before scooting up to nac, and talking to log master. the guy with log master sure was helpful and offered up as much assistance as needed to get me up and running. 
but after watching the vid posted by hilltop366 i think ill go the way of that guy's build. but heck, even with a 12" i beam, i could run my carriage down the length of the beam, OR, pin stationary and run a log cart, all on the same beam. all the 6" i beams are both together, so i could bolt them together and even make below bunk rail cart. that vid gave me so many more ideas. 
I will start looking for an actuator that has the umpf to more a 800# engine or have enough pull and tension holding power to engage the belts.
any links to a company that offers such a sturdy actuator? other than contacting wm to see if they would spill the beans on their actuator source.

oh, I'm watching a youtube vid now of a backwoods country bumpkin getting ready to saw huge sinker cypress. he doesn't know where to hold the mic for best vocal clarity, but i think he said he has a hydraulic pump on the back side of his idler pulley, connected by belts. 

would doing something like that cause to much parasitic drag on the system, just to power the, depending if i go stationary with the mill head or mobile, carriage motors and or the raise/lower? 

A backside belt power take off will need a full wrap on the pulley and will only work with a flat serpent belt.  I dont know how much horse power you can get that way or if using backside skews the power formula ratings, i suspect it does.  Power is taken off the ribbed side of serpents or veed side of vees.  Backside is for tension and redirects.  

You can backside a vee belt but the smaller the radius the quicker the failure.  A 2" diameter backside tensioner pulley has been on my truck for 2 years and its only maybe 15 or 20 degrees bend into a straight chord.  I had a 1.25" diameter pulley backside previously and it shredded belts in about 2 months until i deleted it and went with the 2 inch.  Basically vee belts need generous radius for a sharp backside wrap.  Mower decks are typicaly 3 to 5 inch.


They do make DC clutched pumps with double vee belt sheaves.  Plow trucks with auto trannies run them, aka central hydraulics.  New from surplus center theyre around $500.  Flip toggle switch to turn pump on.

Are we talking about belts to run your band wheel?

I would consider having a flywheel to long keyed shaft hub adapter made then put a 3 sheave pulley on it with a lovejoy after it at the end of the shaft.  The belts run the bandwheel takeoff power, the jaw coupler runs the hydraulic pump.  Have your drive belts on a spring loaded idler setup to kick out when no power.  When the machine is running you could rotate a bellcrank (boomerang shaped) double idler to engage or disengage the main drive.  In one position it lifted the belts off the drive sheave so they dont sit there burning up.  The other position it lays the belts onto the drive sheave and engages the band wheel.  I guess itd be a sort of slack tender, ive seen it on old machinery.  

 The issue is youve got too much power for a centrifigal clutch and old school hand clutched sheave housings are hens teeth nowadays.  I guess a car trans could be cobbled but thats extra weight.  

A hydraulic motor to drive the saw loses efficiency but it sure is an easier way to turn the blade on and off. Just flip the detent lever on your motor spool to on.

Mike, i went from NOT enough power, now to to MUCH power. i got to thinking. i may use a front mounted hydro pump, like my old jd450 had, coming off the harmonic balancer, taking my radiator fan off, moving the radiator to a new location and running an electric fan for cooling. 

I do like the idea that southside mentioned, an actuator move the engine, or used to tighten the belts on these lil piston helis. i think tensioning the belts would easier than lifting the engine. lifting the engine defeats the purpose of rubber vibration isolators to cut down on eng generated stresses and fatigue on the structure, mostly the welds. but its nothing a line up pin and cup couldn't handle. 

i did find on surplus center, an 8 groove, not sure the belt width though, serpentine clutch pulley, but was rated for i think 50hp or less. 

Is there any real reason to disengage the belt drive for the drive wheel during operations? safety, yes, but I'm not gonna be sticking my body parts in the system with power turned on. 

iv witnessed a guy loosing his red grease rag and flight glove, trying to find the source of the oil leak coming from our #2 eng xmsn. we brought both engines online, brought them to 100% with the FOD screen and bullet cowling off to find the leak. it was at night, which posed its own problems, not to mention a LOT of CFM of air being sucked into the engine. well, he slipped while sipping the xmsn down, and there went to rag, some go burned up, the rest went out the bleed band, same for his flt glove. we never found the leak that night, but did FOD out a 2 million $ engine and just went ahead put a new nose box on it. 

moral of story, seen to many instances of putting body parts in areas that tend to make a person draw back a nub. 

so other than safety, why disengage the drive system until cutting operations cease, or failure somewhere on the machine that warrants shutting the machine down?

The first thing that comes to mind as a reason to disengage the band when not cutting is band life. You only have so many flex cycles / revolutions in a band before they fail and to burn up that number while rotating logs, leveling logs, removing lumber, etc is an expensive way to go about it. Along the same thinking is related maintenance, band wheel belts, roller guides, etc. Why have stuff in motion when not needed? 

Another thing I did not think about for my mill was issues while cutting. I made a major miscalculation and have times logs with sweep will hang into the carriage path and stop the carriage. I have had plenty of times I have had to stop and shift the log. I am much happier having to do that with the blade stopped.

Yup - don't want to back up with a spinning band either.  

I thought you might find that video interesting.

I got to thinking last night.. York 210 AC compressors use an electric clutch and they did make a double B belt setup that is fairly serviceable.  I run one to power my road ranger and exh brake and its been flawless since i mounted it years ago.   It mounts to a simple tapered shaft with keyway and wouldnt be hard to put on the backside of your drive band to power the drive wheel with an on/off DC switch.  I dont know the rating but it may be too small for your motor.  It is however the biggest DC clutch pulley i ever saw.

I contemplated suggesting an automotive flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and fork with hydraulic slave mounted right to the driver bandwheels shaft.. And it would certainly work, transmit big power and be locally serviceable if you used a common car part... But that imparts a major thrust load on the band wheel shaft and bearings that they arent designed for and could throw bands.  So that idea snowballs into necessitating a fairly precise thrust surface and radial bearing plus lubrication that isnt full of sawdust to handle the pressure plate force when blade is stopped. 

Early cub cadet mowers are also a source of smaller conventional clutch parts but it doesnt change the shaft thrust loading issue.  Too much power really is a challenge to do on the cheap.  

Im back to thinking big motor means run the bandwheel by hydraulic motor spool. 

Mike I was thinking using an actual automotive clutch as well. wouldn't be hard to put clutch right on engine then a jackshaft with drive belt to the drivewheel. that will take care of the issues you mentioned.

I don't know much about auto tranny torque converters but that could be used as well?

Lightbulb.  


Ford festiva or geo metro 3 cylinder automatic.  Weld diff carrier, use CV axle to power the bandwheel.  Id buy a whole rotten car and use the alternator, radiator, fan, power steering cooler, trans cooler etc etc.  Even the headlights.  Let off throttle and the torque convertor will stop the blade.  Gives you lots of blade speed options.  Power steering pump could be plumbed to a spool valve and then feed to your carriage lift and carriage feed mechanisms.  Id use a motor with sprocket and idlers mounted to carriage that walks a taught chain on the bed.  Sorta poor mans gear rack. 

Looks like the guy in the video is using the auto clutch and transmission to power and disengage the band wheels which seems like the way to go for this much horsepower and torque. It sounds like he says that the mill was powered by a tractor pto before he switched over to the Mercedes diesel. The hydraulic pump is powered by a short shaft from the front crank pulley.


Things that might improve this design for safety, blade guards and pto shaft guarding.

To run a setup like this by yourself I'm wondering if it would make more sense to have the controls on the other side of the saw. This would put your log deck to your left and the lumber comes off on your right saving lots of footsteps during the sawing process and get you away from a lot of the sawdust and engine noise and exhaust fumes. The down side would be it would make it harder to see the back stops.

For saw milling you want a constant blade speed, can that work with a torque converter?

with a lockup torque converter, yes. once up to speed it can lock and create a 1:1 drive.

What he said.  Not all lockups convertors are the same though.  Some are hydraulic and some are solenoid but only in certain gears.

I wasnt suggesting change speed in the cut, but i assume a varispeed would be handy for tuning in different species and different tooth counts/profiles.  We have it on all high end metal cutting bandsaws, and lord knows you need it for twist drilling and milling.

Do industrial band mills have variable band speed?

That mercedes powered home made mill was pretty slick.  Mobile home axles for carriage, mower deck angle drive, clever little blade guide adjuster on the fly around the clamp.  I still havent figured out exactly how you make a carriage reverse off a capstan drum.  Wish they showed that in more detail.  

Well that should work then as long as you can keep the torque converter in the locked position when sawing and not let it unlock during a cut like it does under a heavy load when driving. Probably a standard transmission with a remote clutch leaver would be a bit easier to rig up.

So then the next issue is a good steady engine speed governor.

Looks like the carnage drive is hydraulic.

There is another video of the mill with more detail a description that I watched a few months ago but I was not able to find it yet.

Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 07, 2018, 10:13:35 AM
Well that should work then as long as you can keep the torque converter in the locked position will sawing and not let it unlock during a cut like it does under a heavy load will driving. Probably a standard transmission with a remote clutch leaver would be a bit easier to rig up.

So then the next issue is a good steady engine speed governor.

I forgot to mention cheap and simple,  so a good steady cheap and simple engine speed governor.

A manual trans with a remote hydraulic clutch master cylinder mounted near operator would work fine too.  On the automatics with solenoids you can force lockup by applying voltage to the TCC coil.  Theyll stall you out at a stoplight if you forget to unlock, just like a manual trans. 

For governing a carbureted engine, a belt drive flyweight governor would be pretty straight forward.  Hoof makes them.  Or one could always rig up their own.  Its just springs, flyweights and levers/cams.  

Just grenaded the one on my bobcat and deleted it.  Lawnmower pulley to idle the waterpump belt, and a bike lever on the handle with cable routed through brakeline.  Works perfect. 

On efi engine it'd be tougher. one could put an electronic based ignition box but they kill spark not fuel.. It could load up and wet stack the exhaust.  Older diesels all pretty much have flyweight governors already inside the pump backhalf.  Just need to dial it in. 

Whoa whoa.. Good steady cheap and simple is 4 menu items.  You can only have 2!

LOL

 :D :D 

I forgot to mention it would be a continuous speed governor not a over speed.

So could one simplify this a bit and eliminate the bush hog gearbox by placing the power unit to the left or right (depending on the drive shaft rotation) of the saw head. If using a front wheel drive it would kinda be like removing the front wheel bearing assembly and wheel and putting it on the mill carriage. 

Sorry my brain won't stop, it went from eliminating the bush hog gearbox to.... the mill head could be stationary and raise and lower the log by putting a scissor lift on the log carriage to.....cut a slot down the side of the car for the top of the blade plus suspension modifications and put the band blade on the car using the front and rear wheel (the car would be across the and over top of the log.

I could be related to Red Green. :o :D

if you decide you want to move the log vs moving the sawframe its changes all sorts of things.

kinda be kool to have a full hydraulic bed with quick detach couplings that only connect when the table is all the way one way. they you can do all your flopping and clamping then make your cut and dock it again to adjust.

May not be the best way but I can see that setup becoming quite a bit easier and cheaper to make. definitely be stationary at that point.

Quote from: Southside logger on September 06, 2018, 10:17:07 PM
Rather than a clutch, why not use a tension / release, hinged plate system similar to the "auto clutch" on Woodmizer mills?

So, I found some actuators on surplus center. they range from 110# of pull/push force, up to 2000# of force. it wouldn't be hard to build a bracket that will accept 3 pulleys and be able to take the tension required. 
it seems most are ext/retr at .500 in/sec. not to slow, but to fast. any ideas of pull force required to tension the belts? I could even hook up a limit switch to open the circuit and only if the belts get to loose, the actuator is energized, or i can manually override the switch.

I would be tempted to put a spring in the system so there is some give to the tensioner (think lawn tractor deck belt) then as long as there enough strength to put a bit of stretch in the spring your good and won't have to worry about over tensioning the belt. 

I guess the first question would then be what size spring and if there is a mechanical advantage or disadvantage on your actuating lever to know the minimum amount of force and length of travel required.   

In america we find uses for linear actuators, solenoids, hall effect sensors, PLC's, limit switches, linear bearings, ball screws...

Meanwhile some guy in poland or georgia hangs a 10lb weight bench plate onto a stub of cantilevered rebar and off she goes, sawin 4/4 lumber just the same.

We can spend a lot of money benchracing a junk build but only the guy with the junkpile can really sift through his own pile and pocketbook to figure out what he can do.   My best advice on junkyard building is that the longer you have the project in mind but delay starting it, the more time you have for better components to land in your lap.  Patience and luck produce the best junk.  Thats what i tell myself anyway.  I hate my junk collection but cannot part ways with it.  

We need each other.

So realistically, how much wt. tension do you think it would take to keep the belts tight? Its a lot of hp and 3 belts, not 1. 

I dunno.. A vertical hanging belt that only has 3/4 to 1" of deflection like an auto tensioner does.. Probably 50 to 80lbs of steel hanging?  Just a guess.  May be way off.

Quote from: mike_belben on September 07, 2018, 04:40:59 PM
I dunno.. A vertical hanging belt that only has 3/4 to 1" of deflection like an auto tensioner does.. Probably 50 to 80lbs of steel hanging?  Just a guess.  May be way off.

A good firgure to start with. Ill get a 0-50 and a 50-100 lb spring scale, need them anyhow for business. Fire the engine up and start yarding on the tension pulleys till the blade engages. Then add another 10# to that and get a spring of that wt. and an actuator. 

Quote from: charles mann on September 07, 2018, 04:17:21 PM
So realistically, how much wt. tension do you think it would take to keep the belts tight? Its a lot of hp and 3 belts, not 1.

I'm only running a 18hp single belt but my spring is a trampoline spring and is just *barely* stretched.  I'm guessing about 2 lbs of force but mechanical advantage is probably at 5 to 8 lbs.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20180907_Tensioner.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1536353997)
 
That is a timing belt tensioner from a Toyota that I used for the flat pulley.

Say just to throw a pipe wrench into the mix. You need to ask your self a couple of questions.

1.  Do i want to mill wood to sell.

2   Do i want to spend time building a sawmill and the time and money it will take to develop and cobble the whole thing into an operating system.

 How long is the availability of the log size you wish to mill. 
I would be looking at either using that 1000 on a by hire bases or buy one if you have enough sawing to justify buying one.
Have good self look at were your abilities lay.
Good luck and happy milling/building which ever it is.

Quote from: rjwoelk on September 07, 2018, 05:52:31 PM
Say just to throw a pipe wrench into the mix. You need to ask your self a couple of questions.

1.  Do i want to mill wood to sell.

2   Do i want to spend time building a sawmill and the time and money it will take to develop and cobble the whole thing into an operating system.

How long is the availability of the log size you wish to mill.
I would be looking at either using that 1000 on a by hire bases or buy one if you have enough sawing to justify buying one.
Have good self look at were your abilities lay.
Good luck and happy milling/building which ever it is.

I like to build things. I get more satisfaction building something i can buy, even if it might cost me more to build it. BUT i can build a mill capable of cutting as wide as the 1000 for around $10,000 maybe a lil more, or lil less, depending how fancy i wanna go rite NOW. 
The guy with the wm1000 is went up on price and said he will be going up more pretty soon. 
Longevity of big timber, unk, but right now, i have, depending who i use, anywhere from $1000 if i do it NOW, up to $3000 for some the stuff i need milled. 

I guess you have your answer. If you like building go for it. In the end you will always have a mill to be proud of.

I think a linear actuator is going to be to slow. going to cause alot of excess belt wear from slow engagements. if your just doing a tensioner like ljohnson did you may be way ahead. leave the engine stationary weld pins in place so when the belt is loose it floats off of the pulleys then pull a lever to put the idler against the belt causing it to tighten and begin to drive. If you get the geometry right it will cam over and lock in place won't take that much playing to get it to work right. Probably take more playing to make belt float.

Quote from: rjwoelk on September 07, 2018, 09:26:53 PM
I guess you have your answer. If you like building go for it. In the end you will always have a mill to be proud of.

yes sir. i take pride in fabricating stuff. i gave up a welding scholarship to lamar university in Beaumont, tx to join the military as a cannon cocker. 6yrs later i decided i needed to find a job that would help me in the civi world, so i chose being a hooker. 13yrs later, still working on them 6 bladed beasts. now i i take pride in working with sheet metal, repairing our acft, keeping it mission ready. 
i built a gate for my pig pen and feeder for them. i could have bought some production line junk for less, but my pigs, feral or not, deserve something better than production line chunks of steel. 
I did though think about this build before jumping in it. i figure i can start building a log pile of pine to build me a shed over the mill now, and then start cutting boards for the house, something to get the family out of our double wide. 
it may take me longer, but i can set my own forms, backfill, pack and grade the foundation sand, dig my beams and set my plumbing. and if i felt froggy enough, drag my own mud and screed it with a motorized trowel. but i think i'll pay someone to drag and finish the mud for me. then sart framing and drying in my own house. 
its another project i can take pride in saying, i built most of that, cut and sawed the timber off my land and actually provided for my family. more so than being a slave to the government via taxation. 

Just be careful not to let that pine sit around too long in log form.  Sawyer beetles will get into it pretty quickly and when it is hot out it will stain very, very, fast, as in days, not even weeks!!  

Quote from: Southside logger on September 07, 2018, 10:23:30 PM
Just be careful not to let that pine sit around too long in log form.  Sawyer beetles will get into it pretty quickly and when it is hot out it will stain very, very, fast, as in days, not even weeks!!  

I'll hav to see if we have any of those beetles in central texas. if not, they may get transported with the logs and i may accidentally intro them to our area. something i don't want to do. i figure i could saw 6-8 logs in a couple days, mostly bc i think that is about all my trailer can haul at once. and it may be closer to 4-6 logs. i need to find a scale to put on my arch so i know how much each log weighs so i don't get 1 of them over wt. tickets and take a chance on loosing or getting my cdl suspended. my company would like that to much.
I do have a pine on my property in east tx that is a belt kill. been dead about 10-15 yrs and still standing. its about 40" across. 
any thoughts as to if the wood would be worth messing with? the beetle caverns may make for some nice ascetics to the wood. or it could be junk and won't know till it blows over or i cut into it. i could alaskan mill it as to not waist blade sharpness on a  junk log. 
whats your take on the possibilities of it producing some good wood?  

Been dead that long and still standing - I bet it will have some very unique features to it.  I would wait and use the band saw for something like that.  It could be good for ship lap, flooring, table top - that could make some awful fine material.  

Quote from: Southside logger on September 07, 2018, 10:34:59 PM
Been dead that long and still standing - I bet it will have some very unique features to it.  I would wait and use the band saw for something like that.  It could be good for ship lap, flooring, table top - that could make some awful fine material.  

i am hopping so. gonna have to find the roofing nails that used to hold a 10" stop sign onto it, and just deal with the lead bullets from people shooting the sign and embedding into the tree. 
what exactly is shiplap? kinda like half of a tongue and groove, where it overlaps a 1/2" or so and is toe nailed, or glued together? 

Don't worry - you will find the nails... :D and the horse shoe that was hung there, the kids bike handle bars, the old plant hanger, the fence insulator.....

Yes, ship lap is a style of tongue and groove that is used for interior paneling applications where there is an intentional gap created between the boards where they come together due to the tongue being extra long.  

Quote from: Southside logger on September 07, 2018, 11:32:38 PM
Don't worry - you will find the nails... :D and the horse shoe that was hung there, the kids bike handle bars, the old plant hanger, the fence insulator.....

Yes, ship lap is a style of tongue and groove that is used for interior paneling applications where there is an intentional gap created between the boards where they come together due to the tongue being extra long.  

copy on shiplap. 
I hope i don't run into a bunch of that. we have owned that property for the past 35 yrs, and before that, who knows. the land was just old timber land, so shouldn't be much of those items in there. when we bought the land, the fence had just been strung, but who knows if the tree was used as a fence post when it was younger. only thing i KNOW for sure is bullets and roofing screws with the rubber washer. the tree did start to grow around the sign, but my dad took the sign down with a bit of whittling from his old eye brand folder. 
the sooner i get the mil built, the sooner i can share how many blades i went through sawing these trees up. unfortunately, some trees have been down for a good while. if i had help I'm ny area, i could get it built in a few months. but 7-8 days a month off doesn't leave much time to build and keep up with land chores.
I have neglected my pasture, got grass over 6' tall in places. my new shredder is gonna get worked hard once i finally get around to mowing it. been spending time either gathering trees or getting a pad built to set my conexes on so i have a place to work out of the rain or boiling sun once i get the roof atop of them. get a good overhead light and work well past dark once this mill project starts. 

It's downright amazing what you will find in logs, generations of fence, rocks that are completely grown in 10' in the air. My most interesting find is a civil war headstone in a cedar. Stopped right where I was, still don't know how to get it out of there without risking destroying the cedar or the stone.  

Quote from: Southside logger on September 08, 2018, 12:36:23 AM
It's downright amazing what you will find in logs, generations of fence, rocks that are completely grown in 10' in the air. My most interesting find is a civil war headstone in a cedar. Stopped right where I was, still don't know how to get it out of there without risking destroying the cedar or the stone.  

cut enough of the cedar away from the stone, just to expose the name/date. clean it up, mill around the stone, leaving some good character of the cedar. varnish or epoxy coat it, and try to find the family and present it to them, considering what they ancestor died for, regardless which side of the union he was on. 
If it was me, i would go to end of the earth to find the family, and hope they welcome the stone. 

Quote from: Southside logger on September 08, 2018, 12:36:23 AM
12345678

So after mapping your location, it seems back in 2016, nov, at least over turkey day, i was about a 2hr drive from you. We were held up in Wise, Va working a fire in the area, then moved down to the lunchburg area, then eased on out of va and headed to florida to work a few fires down in that panhandle area. 

Quote from: mike_belben on September 07, 2018, 02:24:33 AM
A backside belt power take off will need a full wrap on the pulley and will only work with a flat serpent belt.  I dont know how much horse power you can get that way or if using backside skews the power formula ratings, i suspect it does.  Power is taken off the ribbed side of serpents or veed side of vees.  Backside is for tension and redirects.  

You can backside a vee belt but the smaller the radius the quicker the failure.  A 2" diameter backside tensioner pulley has been on my truck for 2 years and its only maybe 15 or 20 degrees bend into a straight chord.  I had a 1.25" diameter pulley backside previously and it shredded belts in about 2 months until i deleted it and went with the 2 inch.  Basically vee belts need generous radius for a sharp backside wrap.  Mower decks are typicaly 3 to 5 inch.




Are we talking about belts to run your band wheel?

I would consider having a flywheel to long keyed shaft hub adapter made then put a 3 sheave pulley on it with a lovejoy after it at the end of the shaft.  The belts run the bandwheel takeoff power, the jaw coupler runs the hydraulic pump.  Have your drive belts on a spring loaded idler setup to kick out when no power.  When the machine is running you could rotate a bellcrank (boomerang shaped) double idler to engage or disengage the main drive.  In one position it lifted the belts off the drive sheave so they dont sit there burning up.  The other position it lays the belts onto the drive sheave and engages the band wheel.  I guess itd be a sort of slack tender, ive seen it on old machinery.  

The issue is youve got too much power for a centrifigal clutch and old school hand clutched sheave housings are hens teeth nowadays.  I guess a car trans could be cobbled but thats extra weight.  

A hydraulic motor to drive the saw loses efficiency but it sure is an easier way to turn the blade on and off. Just flip the detent lever on your motor spool to on.

what is a lovejoy you are referring to above? i finally found some shelves/pulley for the ratio i need. at 2500 rpm on the eng, i need a 4.75" pulley mounted to the flywheel, then a 18.75" pulley mounted to the drive wheel shaft. the pulley are rated well with the rpm range for what I'm throwing at them. here is the 18.75" pulley. its 4 groove. https://www.grainger.com/product/TB-WOOD-S-Quick-Detachable-Bushed-Bore-10Y263
i figure i can attempt to run on 3 belts initially, if they hold, cool, if not, go to all 4 belts. 
I think i may try the lever actuated drive engagement for the time being and move to linear motor later. 
I am going to have to buy 2 of those 4.75" pulley right? 1 for engine and 1 for lever engagement? 

Something to keep in mind on belts if you are going multiple belts make sure they come as sets. I believe they are 2 or 4 to a set. But may come in any number. I allways delt with 2 or 4.

Quote from: charles mann on September 08, 2018, 12:48:54 AM

Quote from: Southside logger on September 08, 2018, 12:36:23 AM
It's downright amazing what you will find in logs, generations of fence, rocks that are completely grown in 10' in the air. My most interesting find is a civil war headstone in a cedar. Stopped right where I was, still don't know how to get it out of there without risking destroying the cedar or the stone.  

cut enough of the cedar away from the stone, just to expose the name/date. clean it up, mill around the stone, leaving some good character of the cedar. varnish or epoxy coat it, and try to find the family and present it to them, considering what they ancestor died for, regardless which side of the union he was on.
If it was me, i would go to end of the earth to find the family, and hope they welcome the stone.

It has nothing to do with which side, pretty sure the soldier would have been Confederate given the location and having a stone.  The problem is I am 100% blind on this one, the stone is completely surrounded by the tree, and has been for a while.  So there is no indication of what the stone shape looks like, what angle to the tree is it at, anything.  I visited the church yard where this stone came from hoping to find others to compare it to and give me some guidance on what I was dealing with but there are no stones that had a similar base to them.  
Part of the problem stems from the history of the burial ground.  This church sits about 1/4 mile east of the Ft Pickett line and has been there for a very, very, long time.  Camp Pickett was created in the '40's to serve the needs of training WWII GI's.  About 40,000 acres of farm land was acquired by the govt and all the known graves on those lands were moved to this burial ground.  It was WWII so things were a bit hasty and many of the graves are both unmarked and contain unknown residents.  There is a historian who has spent quite a few summers marking off grave locations and when possible identifying the person, but those are few and far in between with relatives gone from the area by multiple generations.   
My concern is that if I am off by 1/32" of an inch then I can easily destroy any evidence that may still remain to identify the stone as I suspect both the stone and wood might be needed to fully read what is on there.  Feels like an archaeologist who found the missing link but noticed it's sitting on a landmine - what to do?  
I need to get someone with a portable X-ray to shoot the log and provide a look inside to figure this one out, used to have access to that technology but not these days.  The way I see it this situation took a long time to happen so if it takes me a little while to figure it out and do it right then that is a better avenue than permanently destroying the history due to to haste.   

Oh and yes, Lynchburg is about 90 miles west of us.  You do get around for sure.  

Lovejoy is a brand of jaw coupler.  They have a dog clutch looking jaw at the end of each shaft (say PTO output to pump input for example) and a rubber star held captive in between to dampen the pulses and allow for slight rock and misalignments.  Theyre pretty critical to machine building. I have buckets full and still sometimes need to order one.

I have no idea how youre planning to arrange your stuff or what youre really building anymore so i cant be much help in selecting the smaller pieces. Sorry. 

I have a Logmaster LM3 with a 30+ hp cat. Would you like me to measure my pulleys? It has a auto clutch on it, and I like it. Speed up engine and saw away.

Yes sir. That would help out great. 
Pulley center to center too if you dont mind. Thank you. 

On the engine is a single pulley that runs the hydraulic pump. After that is a 4 3/4" double v pulley on the centrifical clutch. It runs a single belt, 2 v.  37" to a 19" pulley on a 2" shaft. The band wheel on the 2" shaft is 30". So 37" between engine shaft and band shaft.

Tacks, 

I wont have a clutch system on the mill unless i opt for a clutch sys like whats on a car/tck or some kind of manual xmsn piece of equipment. 

Intially, i didnt have enough power with the 2 lawn/garden engines. Now i have to much power for regular style centrifugal clutches. 

I have a 36" Turner sawmill that I purchased without the engine in 2011. I built a hydraulic drive for the saw with a 51 HP VW RABBIT diesel engine @ 2200 rpm. The engine can be 50 feet from the mill via 1" hydraulic hoses. All you hear at the mill is the saw..         15 gpm @ 1800rpm Vickers pressure compensated pump, 18 gpm hydraulic gear motor, 5 1/2" pulley driving a 15" pulley driving the 20" band wheel.      I have sawed about 24000 BF with no problems at all.   I haven't sawed for 5 years but just got it fired up again last week. Hope to saw some sticks to build a cabin with next summer.                        Also just bought a new Cooks Cat-Claw sharpener + dual tooth setter   I've sharpened 12 blades so far and they are sharpened better than any I have paid to have sharpened . I am very pleased with them. Still learning though.   Leon