Alaska: The Last Frontier

Jeff · September 19, 2015, 08:37:38 AM

If you put a chevy engine in a Ford truck, is it no longer a Ford truck? If I was to have a heart/ lung transplant, am I now no longer jeff, but now concidered "doctor built"?

If I built a homemade sawmill, the very last thing I'd ever bolt to it would be someone else's manufacturing tag.

sawguy21 · September 19, 2015, 11:32:18 AM

C'mon guys, we are splitting hairs here and very fine ones at that. :

:

If the narrator wants to call a cobbled mill a home built (because that is what he was told to do) while it clearly sports a manufacturers tag so what? As was pointed out the vast majority of viewers will never pick up on something like that but the producers could have paid a little more attention to detail.
We were watching a show that re created a well publicized 1927 murder. They showed the getaway scene, I started to chuckle as the car was a 1938 Buick. Karen just shook her head, "Trust you to pick up something like that". :D

Jeff · September 19, 2015, 12:28:26 PM

I'm not splitting hairs. Just replying to reply to a post I made years ago. Every Norwood is a homebuilt if you want to split hairs. Not sure why the topic took a tone. Not meant to from me.

SLawyer Dave · September 19, 2015, 01:50:33 PM

Quote from: Jeff on September 19, 2015, 08:37:38 AM
If you put a chevy engine in a Ford truck, is it no longer a Ford truck?

Well I can tell you Ford wouldn't consider it a "Ford truck" any longer for any warranty issues, even as to the remaining parts that were not replaced. So far as California, depending on what changes you make to a vehicle, they will reclassify it as a "home built". Both of my trailers are "home built". One was from scratch, the other one is a combination of a farm trailer with a single wide mobile home undercarriage. So again, it comes down to what definitions are employed.

QuoteIf I was to have a heart/ lung transplant, am I now no longer jeff, but now concidered "doctor built"?

To me, (and I presume most people), you would still be "you", because while you may have some "new parts", what makes you, "you", (brain, personality, soul), is still in place without change. However, there are ethical and legal debates already occurring concerning these very issues. With the advances that are being made with stem cell research and brain tissue preservation, the day society has to make such distinctions may be coming as soon as the next 50 to 75 years. The best analogy may be to that of a computer. If you replace the video card, is it still the same "computer"? I think most people would say yes. Replace the mother board, and you may not have the same consensus. When and if medical science is able to "download a personality", regrow brain tissue, etc., then this will really become a debate. Think Frankenstein. Parts coming from different sources, all cobbled together. I would call that "doctor built". It certainly wasn't "natural". What happens when we are growing organs, limbs, and perhaps whole bodies in vats? This isn't just science fiction anymore, we are already growing skin in labs for burn restoration.

QuoteIf I built a homemade sawmill, the very last thing I'd ever bolt to it would be someone else's manufacturing tag.

I completely agree. I built my solar dehydrator from scratch. The only part I didn't build, cut, or otherwise create was the tempered glass that acts as the solar collector. So I would never try to find some manufacturers tag to put on it. However, with my rototiller, I didn't even try to remove the manufacturing tags from the different parts I combined together. It wasn't even a thought that I had until this discussion. I think of both projects as being "home built".

That is why I was wondering how you define "home built", because it seems that we have different views, definitions, (and there is nothing wrong with that). ;)

Jeff · September 19, 2015, 03:14:25 PM

Many people change out the motors on woodmizer mills. Would it the no longer be a woodmizer? Either way, that w a s a mobile dimension sawmill, I don't know if it was modified or not.

SLawyer Dave · September 19, 2015, 03:35:19 PM

Quote from: Jeff on September 19, 2015, 12:28:26 PM
I'm not splitting hairs. Just replying to reply to a post I made years ago. Every Norwood is a homebuilt if you want to split hairs. Not sure why the topic took a tone. Not meant to from me.

Again, it may be due to my profession and interests, but what many people might consider "splitting hairs" can and often does have some tremendous real world impacts. I respect Jeff. We have had a number of conversations over the years both here on the forum and in private settings. I have found throughout my life and career that many of the "issues" and controversies I have dealt with are based more on "definitional" differences than on philosophical. I have a good friend who in her 67 years of life has NEVER been able to travel outside the U.S. She was born in South Texas at home with a registered midwife attending the birth who signed and witnessed her birth certificate. The State Department has taken the position that if your birth was not attended by a licensed medical doctor, then they will not consider such as proof of citizenship for purposes of obtaining a passport. There is no legal question that she is a U.S. citizen, but the State Department refuses to issue passports to thousands of U.S. citizens that are in her similar situation, because they have unilaterally decided that "midwives" who are not employed by doctors or hospitals, are not medical personnel. Mind you the states consider the midwives medical personnel, (which is why they are required to be registered). Now if that is not "splitting hairs" I don't know what is, but these kinds of definitional disputes are all around us.

And again, I was looking for Jeff to define how he generally determines what constitutes "home built". Not because I want to demean or argue against his opinion, but because I am interested in "why" and "how" he interprets these issues, so I can better understand his opinion, (as I doubt we differ that much philosophically), just in the details. Remember the old saying, The Devil is in the Details.

While I don't know if he will give the background on Norwood, and his reference to it being "home built", I would love to hear more about this. I have heard about Norwood Mills here on this forum, but don't know anything else about them.

As to "tone", I did not realize there was one. If anyone thought I was having such, I sincerely apologize. I personally have no problem with "agreeing to disagree" with someone on a particular issue. Such has nothing to do with the respect or admiration I have for a person. Later today I am going to a surprise 50th bd for one of my best friends. He calls himself a Socialist. We vehemently disagree on a host of issues, but he is still my friend and has been for more than 30 years. I was literally just interested in how Jeff and I were interpreting the situation, and whether we were comparing apples and oranges, or if we were really using different frames of reference. Its by understanding these nuances, (some might call them hairs), that I have learned to both understand and appreciate, other's points of view.

Have a great weekend all. =)

Jeff · September 19, 2015, 04:21:29 PM

I would define a homebuilt mill as a mill built from previously unrelated parts and non prefabricated framework componants. Making a sawmill out of stuff that was not previously a sawmill.

Taking a maufactured mill and changing it to meet your needs or repairing it with other parts to operate as designed is a modified mill.

Taking different mills and putting them together to create a mill is a frankenstein mill, unless you put them together in a way that makes it function in a completely different method than the original mills did.

Norwood mills are sold and shipped completely unassembled. You have to put almost every bolt together, but once you do, you have a great mill completely engineered and manufactured by Norwood assembled by you.

I would concider a roto tiller built from 5 other tillers a frankentiller. If you used parts of other machines and built the main frame from non tiller parts, and used a few tiller parts, I might then concider that homebuilt.

Bruno of NH · September 19, 2015, 07:37:38 PM

Looked like a MD mill when I watched the show .
Didn't look home built to me .
Just my 2 cents .
Jim/Bruno

Jeff · September 19, 2015, 08:37:24 PM

Oh, I forgot my smiley Dave. I'm helping Pete at the cabin and only have my phone. I'm in no way bothered by this conversatin. It's good to be right! ;)

SLawyer Dave · September 19, 2015, 11:29:01 PM

I can live with a Frankentiller description.....I kind of like that actually. :D

Thanks for explaining the basis for your labeling. Never considered using the Franken descriptor, but it does make sense in this context.

I do strongly disagree on one point however. The Norwood is not Home Built just because it is wholly assembled at home. If that were true, it would make every dang thing made in South East Asia "home built", (which would truly be an insult to the term). ;)

Left Coast Chris · September 19, 2015, 11:44:55 PM

Back to favorite reality shows........ I was really hoping American Hoggers and Down East Dickering were going to have some more episodes. Enjoyed both shows. The old man and daughter on the hoggers were tough as nails

SLawyer Dave · September 19, 2015, 11:45:31 PM

I was looking at some news feeds and came across this article/interview about Jewel and her memoir and album that she just published that reflects on her life. Not directly about the show, but I thought I would post it here if anyone was interested.

http://news.yahoo.com/jewel-recounts-family-hardships-memoir-album-153636830.html#

Jeff · September 20, 2015, 06:17:19 AM

I don't and never did concider a Norwood homebuilt.

Woodhauler · September 20, 2015, 07:04:22 AM

All these reality shows are hyped up garbage!!! They charged atz lee and jane from hunting bear from a helicopter! Also atz fell off a cliff and is all messed up! Now that's not reality, that's real life! Sounds like he will recover but he has lots of broken bones, ribs, punctured both lungs and more! Hope he heals up!

SLawyer Dave · September 21, 2015, 12:14:22 AM

Quote from: Woodhauler on September 20, 2015, 07:04:22 AM
All these reality shows are hyped up garbage!!! They charged atz lee and jane from hunting bear from a helicopter! Also atz fell off a cliff and is all messed up! Now that's not reality, that's real life! Sounds like he will recover but he has lots of broken bones, ribs, punctured both lungs and more! Hope he heals up!

I read an article about the charges against Atz and Jane. Apparently, the production company used a helicopter to transport some of the crew and equipment to the mountain where they were hunting. The criminal allegation was that equipment or supplies used in the hunt were transported by helicopter, which is disallowed under the hunting licenses Atz and Jane had. At least from the criminal complaint, it did not appear that anyone "shot" anything from a helicopter. Rather it was a violation of how equipment for the hunt was transported.

That's a shame about Atz getting hurt, had not heard anything about that.

Woodhauler · September 21, 2015, 06:20:53 AM

Quote from: SLawyer Dave on September 21, 2015, 12:14:22 AM
Quote from: Woodhauler on September 20, 2015, 07:04:22 AM
All these reality shows are hyped up garbage!!! They charged atz lee and jane from hunting bear from a helicopter! Also atz fell off a cliff and is all messed up! Now that's not reality, that's real life! Sounds like he will recover but he has lots of broken bones, ribs, punctured both lungs and more! Hope he heals up!

I read an article about the charges against Atz and Jane. Apparently, the production company used a helicopter to transport some of the crew and equipment to the mountain where they were hunting. The criminal allegation was that equipment or supplies used in the hunt were transported by helicopter, which is disallowed under the hunting licenses Atz and Jane had. At least from the criminal complaint, it did not appear that anyone "shot" anything from a helicopter. Rather it was a violation of how equipment for the hunt was transported.

That's a shame about Atz getting hurt, had not heard anything about that.

They was flown in the same day they filmed the hunt! You can not hunt the same day you fly to a hunt! Guess they started filming the same day so that's what they are going on!

Chuck White · September 21, 2015, 06:50:52 AM

In Alaska, it's also illegal to transport game on a helicopter! ;)

Tom L · September 21, 2015, 09:00:40 AM

something I don't understand from the show, I saw a re run last night.
how does a guy living in the bush. with no income, have two excavators , a bulldozer, backhoe, mill, two tractors, and three trailers all that look in pretty good condition and not that terribly old.

repmma · September 21, 2015, 11:34:10 AM

Quote from: Tom L on September 21, 2015, 09:00:40 AM
something I don't understand from the show, I saw a re run last night.
how does a guy living in the bush. with no income, have two excavators , a bulldozer, backhoe, mill, two tractors, and three trailers all that look in pretty good condition and not that terribly old.

I'm not sure if most of the equipment might not be inherited. Plus I wouldnt be surprised if the cattle raising is reasonably lucrative up there. It appears like they have enough fields for putting up winter feed and there isnt alot of areas that raise beef from what I've seen. I know what local beef ive seen bought came from down that way. Still i'm sure they are making something from these past seasons of the show.

Raider Bill · September 21, 2015, 11:55:41 AM

Quote from: Tom L on September 21, 2015, 09:00:40 AM
something I don't understand from the show, I saw a re run last night.
how does a guy living in the bush. with no income, have two excavators , a bulldozer, backhoe, mill, two tractors, and three trailers all that look in pretty good condition and not that terribly old.

Don't forget the ferry boat

starmac · September 21, 2015, 01:07:20 PM

Guys, Alaska has lots of game laws, pertaining to the transportation of equipment, supplies, and people too. You can't pay a buddy, or even buy the gas for him to transport you to your hunting area, this has to be done by a licensed transporter and movie production companies are usually not one. lol
Different areas have different laws on this too. The unit my neighbors cabin does not allow the use fo even 4 wheelers used for hunting in any way, equipment, supplies or game, or even transportation once the season has started. He can use a 4 wheeler to get supplies in, but it has to be done pre season. Most and maybe all of Alaska bans helicopters for hunting purposes.

sawguy21 · September 21, 2015, 03:11:37 PM

We have watched Alaska State Troopers which seems reasonably factual. Some episodes show show them enforcing hunting regulations, the hunters are using atv's which does not concern the officers in the least. Here they can be used to scope out hunting areas and transporting supplies but not during the actual hunt.

SLawyer Dave · September 21, 2015, 03:16:29 PM

The first thing to realize about all "reality tv" is that they only tell you a part of the story. Nothing in ATLF says that the family members they profile, "don't have an income". In fact, they go pretty far out of the way to make you think they are way out on a dead end road in the middle of no where. While that may have been true when Yule Kilcher first founded the homestead, the Kilcher Homestead now is not even that far off the paved road. They also have access to the electrical grid, (though not all of them access it).

The history of the Kilcher family is pretty interesting. Yule Kilcher came to the Homer area of Alaska on foot from Anchorage looking for a place to build his "homestead". While he may have been cash poor, he was richly skilled, which was a valuable resource in 1930's Alaska. He ended up as a noted Alaskan politician, serving in both the statehood movement and as an Alaska State Senator. He, like his son Otto, was known as a mechanical genius who could fix or build most anything. He built up both his homestead and personal fortune by being involved in a lot of businesses and endeavors that have tremendously grown in value with the commercial development of Alaska.

The show focuses on the continued struggles of the family on the homestead, yet each individual family member is a multimillionaire (on paper) based on their interest in the family lands and businesses. Otto owns several businesses in Homer including fabricating, marine and mechanical engineering firms. While he may play up his image as being a little "kookie" on the show, the man has a brilliant mind. He has also collected a lot of "toys" over the years, which you get to see him use in the show. His son Eivin has inherited much of his father's mechanical and intellectual talents, and primarily supports his family with his own excavation and land clearing business. Some of the shows have focused on Eve's large garden. She is a fixture at the Homer Farmer's Market where she sells most of what she produces from their farm.

I am not trying to say that they don't face hardships like they show in the episodes, only that they *choose* to face those challenges, even though they could sell everything and go live a pretty good life of luxury in a much warmer climate. I actually respect them a bit more for the fact that they continue to live that life, when they have much easier options available.

OlJarhead · September 21, 2015, 05:22:01 PM

That explains much! I've often looked at some of their equipment and thought: they must have worked a ton, or done rather well in some venture because they sure do have some good equipment and nice toys...and who can afford to fly into hunting areas etc etc like that?

Personally I can see living that way. After all, if I could afford to do it I would!!! I don't live to work, I work to live.

Woodhauler · September 21, 2015, 06:13:05 PM

Quote from: SLawyer Dave on September 21, 2015, 03:16:29 PM
The first thing to realize about all "reality tv" is that they only tell you a part of the story. Nothing in ATLF says that the family members they profile, "don't have an income". In fact, they go pretty far out of the way to make you think they are way out on a dead end road in the middle of no where. While that may have been true when Yule Kilcher first founded the homestead, the Kilcher Homestead now is not even that far off the paved road. They also have access to the electrical grid, (though not all of them access it).

The history of the Kilcher family is pretty interesting. Yule Kilcher came to the Homer area of Alaska on foot from Anchorage looking for a place to build his "homestead". While he may have been cash poor, he was richly skilled, which was a valuable resource in 1930's Alaska. He ended up as a noted Alaskan politician, serving in both the statehood movement and as an Alaska State Senator. He, like his son Otto, was known as a mechanical genius who could fix or build most anything. He built up both his homestead and personal fortune by being involved in a lot of businesses and endeavors that have tremendously grown in value with the commercial development of Alaska.

The show focuses on the continued struggles of the family on the homestead, yet each individual family member is a multimillionaire (on paper) based on their interest in the family lands and businesses. Otto owns several businesses in Homer including fabricating, marine and mechanical engineering firms. While he may play up his image as being a little "kookie" on the show, the man has a brilliant mind. He has also collected a lot of "toys" over the years, which you get to see him use in the show. His son Eivin has inherited much of his father's mechanical and intellectual talents, and primarily supports his family with his own excavation and land clearing business. Some of the shows have focused on Eve's large garden. She is a fixture at the Homer Farmer's Market where she sells most of what she produces from their farm.

I am not trying to say that they don't face hardships like they show in the episodes, only that they *choose* to face those challenges, even though they could sell everything and go live a pretty good life of luxury in a much warmer climate. I actually respect them a bit more for the fact that they continue to live that life, when they have much easier options available.

As for the power, I think if you look hard you will see ottos house is on the power grid.