After much thought and planning, I finally decided to start my shipping container kiln build, so thought I'd start a new thread of the project.
Last weekend, the big day arrived, my decommissioned non working hi cube reefer arrived from Georgia, and was unloaded in a temporary location by my barn so it would be convenient to work on.
Its a little beat up, but the price was right.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0489.jpg)
What is the load size that that (Tom) container will handle?
I'll be anxious to see the progress on your new Kiln. Will you be using a Nyle system again?
popcorn_smiley
Will share a lesson I learned the hard way when I built a kiln from a shipping container.
Make all conduit runs on the outside and place your fan and light shitches on the outside. Mine were on the inside, had to replace switches ever 3-4 months. The conduit had a hard time standing up to th high humidity and heat.
Quote from: WDH on March 14, 2015, 07:55:24 AM
What is the load size that that (Tom) container will handle?
I'm going to construct it so that it will can do about 3.5 Mbf of hardwood and 1.5 Mbf of softwood.
Do you have a schematic of how you will lay out the inside of the container? Where will the dehumidification unit be located?
the way my pea brain works, the path your taking seems alot more difficult than a stick built kiln :) looking in from the outside i'm sure you have plenty of reasons for this path.
good luck it will be an interesting thread.
Here are some drawings that Hank sent me before his retirement.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37307/Container_4.gif)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37307/Container_3.gif)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37307/Container_2.gif)
The graphic is generally what I'm planning, but there are some design changes I'm contemplating, based on conversations with a bunch of folks and even the guys at Nyle.
If you don't have a full load end to end, just a partial load, looks like baffling can be a challenge.
Here is a loading technique that I have seen used for over 30 years. Make a track out of angle iron, mounted so the "V" shape is inverted. Use a few metal spacers to keep the two tracks spaced the required distance apart. Then use pulled for wheels and mount these wheels on a small frame. If you load is four feet wide, space the tracks three feet apart. Have a portable track extension that fits on the end of the track when the door is open, for loading and unloading.
Ouse canvas for baffles. Fasten a two foot wide roll to the ceiling. Then unroll the sections you need and use a weight on the bottom to hold down.
Ok?
Used the track system Gene described in my container kiln chamber. It worked well. I have drawings of the cart design, it's a Word file. Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the drawing.
You are going to have more dry lumber than you can shake a stick at (old saying).
Quote from: WDH on March 17, 2015, 07:23:04 AM
If you don't have a full load end to end, just a partial load, looks like baffling can be a challenge.
Yes, that's one of the problems with a linear kiln configuration.
I'll be keeping a eye on this one. :P
I used two pieces of 3" angle iron where Nyle specs two pieces of 4" channel iron. My cart was 18 feet long, I had 8 casters on each side, one side had grooved casters to ride on the top of 1.5" angle
To determine the load of each caster, I determined the weight of 2MBF of green white oak, then divided by 16 (number of casters on cart). This determined what weight capacity of each caster. Consider getting casters with zero fittings, and use a high temperature grease. Th axels for each caster was a .75" stainless steel bolt with a lock nut. Instead of using the wood bunks to tie the two sides of the cart together, I used 1.5" angle iron and welded it in place. This allows you to make adjustments to the bunks to sit each lumber pack on. My fork lift did not have side shift on the carriage, so being able to adjust each bunk saved time by not having to be precise each time I sat a kiln charge on the cart.
As Gene mentioned, you will have to build a removable bridge between the chamber and track that is out side the kiln.
Now, When you stack lumber, set up a bunk with sticker supports in the same configuration (distances between each) as your kiln cart. I used a forklift to move lumber packs from the stacking bunk to the kiln cart.
Two ways to get the cart in the kiln. I used my tractor with a fork lift attachment on the front-end loader. I moved the forks to the middle and pushed the cart in to the chamber. Another option is to anchor a pulley inside the kiln. Attach one end of the line to the cart, Then run the line inside the kiln around the pulley and to your forklift/tractor/support equipment. Then pull the cart in to the chamber.
Weld a stop to the track system in the kiln so you do not run the cart off the end of the track.
Regarding keeping the cart on the track when the cart is loaded; I never had an issue with the cart trying to jump the track. To align the angle iron, I used string to lay it as straight as I could then welded it in place.
Hopefully this is not too confusing.
Regarding loading, I have seen both methods tha GA_Boy mentioned, plus i have seen a long, stiff pole attached to the cart and lift...it can be used for both loading and unloading.
Note that a moving cart with two MBF is over 10,000 pounds green with lots of momentum, so the stop at the end of the track must be substantial indeed.
It's here! The kiln arrived on a pallet. Some assembly required. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/Kiln_Pallet.jpg)
It's good to be able to get going, I'm excited to start putting things together. I've been doing prep work, getting gravel in, running electricity to the new kiln site, and trying to make sure I've got things lined up.
Hopefully, I'll start putting things together next week, after work. I won't be able to spend much weekend time on it, between the retail sales and sawing.
YH
Nice 8)
I assume that the dehumidification unit was made for use in Australia or New Zealand :D.
That's a very impressive pallet load. Congratulations and good luck!
Nice going. Continuing to monitor as I am getting ready to start up my build.
Can't wait to see some picsof your progress. Been down again with a bout with pneumonia. Went out for first time today to enjoy the sunshine. Good luck
Nice to see you spend money you make on equipment for the business. Not every one does that. I do, and think I have it all then I need more. :D :D :D :D Are you going to hire help too?
I think the goat has a good man he wants to let go. ;)
I got a few things done this week. The vents and such are installed.
Robert,
The kiln is really taking shape and looking good. Glad to hear that you ordered the automatic venting system. Please keep the updates coming. I started my kiln in December and its now been 4 months. Maybe I should have gone your route and set up a container kiln.
Yellowhammer - I have a question about your new kiln. You said you were going to position the powered exhaust vent on the same side of the fan baffle as the kiln unit. That seems counter intuitive to me. If that kiln unit was on the same side as the intake vent, the cooler air coming through the vent would mix with the heated air fron the kiln unit, then get dragged through the stack as the exhaust fan sucks, wouldn't it?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how efficient these units are, how well the heat will mix in the chamber.
I had the same "misgivings" and called and asked the same exact question to the kiln manufacturer as I was following the instructions and installing the vents.
Maybe the fans mix the air in the chamber so effectively there's minimal difference in temp/humidity throughout the chamber?
Anyways, thanks for the detailed accounting of your new kiln build. Looks great and gives lots of food for interesting thought.
I am building a chamber for a Nyle L200M with the power vent system. They have put out drawings showing the powered vent (the exhaust) on the dehumidifier side and another drawing with it on the other side. ????
I called them yesterday and was told that it didn't really make any difference as long as they were on opposite corners of the chamber and high on the walls. The purpose of the vents apparently has nothing to do with moisture, rather they are to vent off hot air when it exceeds specifications. The difference in moisture content and temperature of the air is minimal on either side of the baffles.
I also asked that someone from Nyle sign in and follow this thread, answering questions as appropriate.
The instructions with the kiln are pretty good, but they do have some discrepancies.
I was able to get the fan baffle up this week. Still plugging along.
You will be up and running in no time.
I can see that you have been very busy, looks very nice!
YH, doesn't sleep. :D :D
Quote from: WDH on April 10, 2015, 07:18:34 AM
You will be up and running in no time.
I sure feels like I'm already getting to the short rows.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 10, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
YH, doesn't sleep. :D :D
I get bored sleeping :D
I had another couple loads of gravel delivered, one of crushed concrete and the other of size 67 washed gravel. I've been getting quite a few loads lately to develop a new access road where the kiln will be placed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/gravel.jpg)
Will the new kiln be out behind the planer room?
It's looking good!
Quote from: WDH on April 11, 2015, 07:26:07 AM
Will the new kiln be out behind the planer room?
Yes, since iteh kiln ano loading track are relatively long, we had a little trouble finding a suitable flat, spot, close enough to be handy.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 10, 2015, 10:41:59 PM
Quote from: WDH on April 10, 2015, 07:18:34 AM
You will be up and running in no time.
I sure feels like I'm already getting to the short rows.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 10, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
YH, doesn't sleep. :D :D
I get bored sleeping :D
Between working loads of some real pretty curly hard maple (I hope) logs today and getting some gravel delivered, I started the layout and installation of the control box interior, drilling holes and setting pass throughs. I like to use the bell end of pvc conduit one one side to trap and glue, and caulk to a junction box in the other side of the wall in the kiln interior. I mounted pass throughs for the main kiln cable, the kiln data cables and also 110V and 220V power. I made the pass throughs because it's never a good idea to mix ac power and data lines in the same conduit, and I will use foam plugs to seal them off when I run the wires. You can see the wall construction of the kiln, a layer of exterior aluminum, then a layer of foam, and finally a layer of stainless steel. That's pretty much it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/pass_through.jpg)
Now that I have most of the electrical components of the control box in place, I can start pulling wire and making connections. The steel in these truck boxes is amazingly tough, I ruined a nice carbide tipped hole saw today, sheared the teeth tips right off. Oh well, I had a spare. On one of the junction boxes, I even set a wall outlet and a light bulb socket, to keep the controller from being exposed to freezing temps. No fancy switch here, I have gotten used to just turning the bulb. The kiln control box will be removed just before I get the kiln container moved to is final location, I don't want to risk damaging it during the transport.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~105.jpg)
I spent some time fiddling with the Nyle fan switches, but for various reasons was not happy with them, and I'm not going to use them at this point. I'll look into alternatives.
I had another couple loads of gravel delivered, one of crushed concrete and the other of size 67 washed gravel. I've been getting quite a few loads lately to develop a new access road where the kiln will be placed. The crushed, reclaimed concrete packs down very hard and the other washed stone will be used under the concrete aprons and kiln. Somewhere on the opposite side of the globe, gravel must be popping out of the ground, because I keep putting loads down and it just keeps dissapearing into the mud. Its got to be going somewhere. Good news is the trucker who delivers the gravel s a neighbor of mine, so he can deliver a load on his way home.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/gravel.jpg)
Interesting enough, I've been talking to shipping container guys and they say concrete under a container isn't the best choice of bedding for a heavily loaded container. Each of the four corners protrude down an extra 3/4 inch, so unless a recess is formed in the concrete, the only part of the container to be touching the ground will be the corners. The rest of the container is bridged up and unsupported, unless shims are used. So apparently the best choice of container surface is asphalt, so when loaded, the four corners will settle into the soft asphalt until the body of the container is supported. The second best container bedding technique is gravel, or gravel and ties. Kind of a threw me a curve on this one, I was gettin ready to pour concrete, already had a bid, but now, not so sure, so I'm considering my options.
YH
Your day job must be at a desk. :D :D :D
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 12, 2015, 09:02:05 PM
Your day job must be at a desk. :D :D :D
Sometimes I wish. My old boss used to tell me he knew I was working because I wasn't at my desk. Now I am the boss and still have pretty much the same job description, although for some reason people try to avoid me first thing Monday morning because they say I'm grumpy and look tired.
I just tell them to get to work, I'm old and will get out of my chair after I have my coffee. ;D
YH
If you don't watch out, you will become a Grumpy Old Man, like Pineywoods.
Since when is 50 "old". You're barely middle aged! Heck, I'm middle age. :D
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 13, 2015, 06:00:53 PM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 12, 2015, 09:02:05 PM
Your day job must be at a desk. :D :D :D
Sometimes I wish. My old boss used to tell me he knew I was working because I wasn't at my desk. Now I am the boss and still have pretty much the same job description, although for some reason people try to avoid me first thing Monday morning because they say I'm grumpy and look tired.
I just tell them to get to work, I'm old and will get out of my chair after I have my coffee. ;D
YH
:D smiley_thumbsup
Tom the guys at nyle told me to put my powerd vent on suction side of fans I ended up calling cause it was confusing but it does work
We build DH controllers but I'm not a DH guy. But that just doesn't sound right.
I had to take a break working on the interior of the kiln last week, but have managed to get it pretty much done, except for the baffle, which I'm going to defer for a little while. Making some changes to the standard configuration.
The next task is the ground prep work, something that has been very difficult to get to, because it has been raining so much. I finally was able to get a couple dry days, and got some more gravel delivered.
Of course my wife and I pulling strings, driving stakes, and spreading gravel attracted the attention of old number 7, one of my cows, so she decided to watch and give us advice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~106.jpg)
It will give the L53 good company.
Fantastic work. Are you going to charge for tours?
When I toured, I got a steak dinner and a whack of information. That Yellowhammer is one fine, smart, fellow.
I can't do much more until the flatbed container hauler comes out and moves the unit into its final position. Here's me getting ready to place a bunch in ties. The grapple and strong hydraulics makes short work of it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~112.jpg)
I'll get some steel this week and start on the carts and track, and also get some loads of crushed green concrete for the access and loading ramps.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~110.jpg)
I'll probably be loading with pallets.
Nice grapples Yellowhammer!!
Who makes that?
Quote from: YellowHammer on May 04, 2015, 12:31:12 AM
<<snip>>
I'll get some steel this week and start on the carts and track, and also get some loads of crushed green concrete for the access and loading ramps. I've been playing with this crushed green concrete and it's great stuff. It only costs $15 per yard, versus $100 per yard of ready mix, goes on like gravel, but when flooded with water and compacted, creams on top for a fairly smooth surface, and shortly thereafter becomes rock hard. I built a half mile road into a swamp a few years ago with the same material, so I know it will make an impenetrable bed.
<<snip>>
Please, tell me more about it! I need to put in my driveway for the fire department. I have snow/frost and wonder how well it would do. Were do you get it?
Quote from: AlaskaLes on May 04, 2015, 12:53:26 AM
Nice grapples Yellowhammer!!
Who makes that?
Its a Construction Attachments extreme duty demolition grapple, very useful for many things besides just grappling. It is extremely effective for clearing roots in fields of woods roads.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 04, 2015, 01:08:18 AM
Please, tell me more about it! I need to put in my driveway for the fire department. I have snow/frost and wonder how well it would do. Were do you get it?
Just like sawmills, concrete plants have waste streams, too, all you have to do is call and ask.
Hmm,
I'm going to need to get a dump truck or at least make a dump trailer to get this "free/cheap" stuff...
Most times you just have to pay for trucking.
I've been fairly busy working the kiln lately. It finally stopped raining and I was able to get the kiln base finished.
Here is the container dropped in its new home.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~121.jpg)
Go Man Go!!
Looking really good.
If you do not already have one now would be a good time to buy a decent spray gun.
I have never seen someone get as much productivity per minute as you do! You take being organized to a whole new level 8) 8)
popcorn_smiley
Looking Awesome
Thanks for all the pics
You are one productive fellow.
Looking good! I like your pallet idea - much quicker to load on the cart as opposed to trying to match up the sticker locations exactly.
I agree with OneWithWood.
Spray guns are cheap these days and painting really isn't that hard.
You should look at HVLP=High Volume Low Pressure.
It wastes a lot less of the expensive material than a Conventional gun.
Most...75% of the material makes it to the substrate that you intend to paint.
HVLP is quite common these days and you can pick up a good gun for not very much $.
Just be sure to break it down and flush it well with solvent when you're done.
A good solvent clean or a light sandblast and solvent wipe, will ensure that your finish bonds well.
It's better to coat it right the first time than watch it rust and have to rebuild it.
You should look at Polyamide Epoxy, as it is made for extreme moisture and heat.
The only thing better than a spray gun is a wife who knows how to use one. We got the carts finished, painted and wheels mounted. Took awhile.
That's quite a railway! Look like you need one more tie... Putting on a tab on the end so you don't run off the end of the track?
Might just be my eyes, but it looks like your whole assembly is laying on it's side.
You may need to rotate that 90° :D :D
Looking really good Yellowhammer.
I can relate to the ultimate tool being a hardworking wife who's willing to pitch on whatever is needed.
My partner/wife was running the controls on our 10K lb boom crane for a 9 hour shift of piledriving 2 days ago.
...and smiling the whole time.
I have problems loading photos from my Ipad, as it always shows the photos as being correct side up, even when I view the final post with my Ipad, but when I look at it with the PC, they are rotated.
You have some pretty big hills for those carts to roll down :).
Will you be stacking the pallets three high?
QuoteI have problems loading photos from my Ipad
Know the problem. I send them from iPad to PC, and upload to gallery from the PC. Seems to work then, as apparently there is a tag from iPad to know which is the bottom/top etc. Prolly an app that would sort that out, but no idea what it would be.
Like the new RR and the kiln build.
YH you are the man !
That's some nice work !
How's the new tractor working out for you ?
Jim /Bruno
No, we are switching from three high to two high.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on May 22, 2015, 08:45:24 PM
How's the new tractor working out for you ?
Jim /Bruno
It's working out great. It's increased loader capacity lets me lift these full packs with ease, and was a very important part of the new kiln strategy, as well as our new Cat forklift. Both lift full packs of every species we saw, including heavy hickory.
Excellent build, YH. A good an inexpensive stop for the carts is to use full size rubber wheel chocks placed next to the track against the cart cross member.
YH, you do nice work!
I'm trying to find the Jim Price (Det Tigers announcer) audio or a youtube video of him saying "NOW THAT'S A YELLA HAMMER!" But alas I cannot... Great job on this kiln! Do you think the L200 would also be suited to a bit of a smaller container, like a 24 or 28 footer?
Yes, I'm sure it would, and it may actually be a more optimum configuration with less length. When I talked to the guys at Nyle, they said they had just rigged up a 40 footer into two 20 footers with two L200's for a large and famous guitar manufacturer.
Oww
I like the wheel chock idea, I bet they'll have them at the Zone.
Scsmith42, I appreciate the compliments and advice you've given me.
If you are not planning on extending your "Short Line" RR in the near future, I'd weld on some steel to the end of the track and you'd never have to worry about losing a car.
You will need a whistle for that train :D.
I have been looking at building a reefer kiln for drying firewood. I am going to be watching this very closely.
Quote from: WDH on May 24, 2015, 07:50:23 AM
You will need a whistle for that train :D.
I keep thinking I should be able to do something like that to entertain the kids while the parents are shopping and buying wood.
Good things have been happening. I got everything running and tested today. I'm sure not done yet, but I'm getting close.
So just as it started raining and lightning this afternoon, I threw the switches, let the electrons loose and everything worked as it was supposed to. 8)
Drain water can be very acidic and will corrode metal, even aluminum. Drain water will also crust the wick and then readings are incorrect. Distilled water is best. Perhaps a large reservoir with a float valve (like a toilet) that adds water from the large reservoir to the wet bulb box when needed.
So that is why my wet bulb wick gets crusty :).
A crusty wick results from the use of water with minerals in it for the wet bulb wick. The water evaporates and leaves the minerals behind...distiller water has no minerals, so no crust!
Doc,
Maybe I don't know exactly how this kiln works. Isn't there a dehumidifier? If so, the water it collects would be pure, distilled water, wouldn't it? Is the "drain water" something different?
Thanks for your info.
I also had thought the drain water would be pure/distilled off the humidifier at first thought. My design plan was to treat it like pure water as well.
Maybe the moisture in the kiln air is so saturated with the minerals and wood tannins/acid that it is actually held in a near vaporous suspension and thus can condense off the cooler coils depositing the airborne suspension and not be pure water.
I have never been in a drying kiln/dehumidification kiln. Is there air so heavy with moisture that it is more fog like with small airborne water droplets?
Waiting for Gene's response because I think I misunderstood the dehumidifier's waters source.
I learn just about everyday as this thread rolls-on. :)
Here is a technical explanation that I hope makes practical sense. The air in the kiln has many chemicals or vapors in it. When this air is passed over cold coils in the DH, any vapor that will condense at 40 F will condense. As a result, the DH will have acidic water as there are some acids in the air that will condense, as well as water vapor. When drying cedar, some cedar oils will condense and the water will smell nice and be white in color. Walnut has some dark colored chemicals that will condense. And there are other species too. So, we do not have pure water in the drain. Ok?
That answers a question I've had when drying cedar.
I wonder if a person could collect the condensate from cedar drying, bottle it, and then sell it as a cedar aroma restorer for spraying on cedar that has lost part of its aroma. Maybe it is not legal. But it seems like a neat idea.
Wow! What a project!!
Looks great..... man oh man, you sure do have energy and imagination YellowHammer!!!!!
Nice Job!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-Dad2FourWI
I reading about how to move your carts in and out. I am thinking of rigging a system like the sawmills, cable wrap around a drum 2 or 3 times go to end of track around a pulley and to the cart, other end same way to other end of cart then put a reversible motor on the drum, pulls on one side as it lets off cable on the other side. then reverse to go other direction.
In the old days when rails were the common way to load and unload, the technique mentioned by armechanic was exactly how it was done, using an electric motor. The motor could be moved from rail to rail...kiln to kiln.
Sometimes it seems that the old way is still a good way. ;D
It was a big day today, everything is done (mostly ;D) and we ran a half load of wood into the kiln. Here's me loading the carts with the forklift.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~143.jpg)
I am totally impressed. Congrats.
Awesome, Robert. The grass around the kiln should stay nice and green.
Fantastic! Thanks for sharing your journey.
Excellent job, YH.
If you have quick attach forks on that tractor it may be easier to detach the forks and just use the FEL carriage to push the load in. That is what I do and I find I have more control and it is easier. But, then again, my JD4520 is considerably smaller than your tractor.
Just curious. Did you even try to push it in by hand? Wondering how much force it takes to move that stack with all those wheels on your cart. I suppose it will be a bit easier to pull them out with all the water gone!
I saw one operation that had a large pipe that fit like a sleeve on one fork. The pipe, about six feet long, then had a flat plate at the end of the pipe about two feet long (horizontal) and 10" high that was used as a pusher plate. It looked a bit like the letter "T". Hope this is clear. Maybe this would be an improvement?
Quote from: OneWithWood on June 11, 2015, 12:14:25 PM
Excellent job, YH.
If you have quick attach forks on that tractor it may be easier to detach the forks and just use the FEL carriage to push the load in. That is what I do and I find I have more control and it is easier. But, then again, my JD4520 is considerably smaller than your tractor.
I have a QA system on the loader, I'll try it with the forks removed.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 11, 2015, 02:47:42 PM
Just curious. Did you even try to push it in by hand? Wondering how much force it takes to move that stack with all those wheels on your cart. I suppose it will be a bit easier to pull them out with all the water gone!
We pushed the carts by hand (by shoulder really) just to see how they felt on the track, and once they got rolling, it wasn't too bad, but I'd estimate it took about 300 lbs force to get it moving, which isn't much relatively speaking, but is a lot more than I'd want to do routinely.
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 11, 2015, 06:46:48 PM
<<snip>>
I even threatened my donkey that I might use her if she wouldn't stop using my new gravel pad as a litter box.
YH
:D :D
I'd opt for the UTV with a solid connection push bar so you could stop it if need be and be able to pull them out as well. Did you happen to make a coupler to attach your train cars together?
Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 11, 2015, 07:33:59 PM
Did you happen to make a coupler to attach your train cars together?
Well, that's one of the things I mostly didn't get done ;D
Moisture probes driven 1/4 of the thickness of the lumber will give an answer within 5% MC of the true value for very dry lumber. As the lumber gets wetter, errors commonly exceed 20% MC. The reason is that the relationship between electrical resistance and MC becomes very uncertain or imprecise.
Looks good YH 8)
It's been about a week, and I took the dried and sterilized load out yesterday with no issues, other than getting a feel for how the kiln oprates and behaves.
8) (just imagine he is saying "choo-chooooo")
Sweet success. Now you will need to get an Engineer's cap.
Congrats.
Hard work pays off!
He be laying more track soon, and some switches for dead-heading, and maybe a round-table for turning around...
just sayin.. ;D
I may get the engineer's hat, but I'm about kilned out for awhile. ;D.
Now I need to figure out how to quickly unstack and unsticker lumber. Not saying it's difficult, but it's very time consuming, and it's now becoming my choke point. I've spent two afternoons this week, and another tomorrow just unstickering lumber and dead stacking, getting it ready to go to the planer. Unstickering and dead stacking is about as enjoyable as washing gravel, and about as tedious, especially for hours at a time.
Anybody got any ideas on how to make this faster? I've been looking at machines, but they are very expensive.
Thanks to the folks who watched and helped me along in this journey, it was a lot of fun, 8) and I hope you all enjoyed following my project as it progresses. I have to admit, I'm glad it's over because it's time for the contraption to start earning it's keep.
Why handle it twice? If you have enough stickers, why not leave it on the pallets stickered and then when you pass it through the planner, you un-sticker it then?
Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 17, 2015, 11:35:31 PM
Why handle it twice? If you have enough stickers, why not leave it on the pallets stickered and then when you pass it through the planner, you un-sticker it then?
I have to transport the kiln dried rough sawn by goosneck flatbed, and space is at a premium because I'm carrying full loads like this. So I unsticker to get more road worthy packs, and don't have to worry about a sticker coming loose on the highway and taking out another vehicle .
OK, got it. Well, you are pretty handy with a welder...
Make a set of rails, maybe three or four of them making a bed about 12 feet wide and about 10-15 long with the near end about 6 or 8 feet up, far end close to the ground. Approach from the high side, dump your pallet of lumber, tilting it slowly on to the rails. Maybe pushing a row or two at a time off the pallet. The stickers will fall down, the lumber slides down to the end (with vertical stops?). From there, either hand pick the boards or fork them with your tractor.
Kind of like a rock/dirt separator you see on big construction sites. I could whip up something in SketchUp, if you like.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 17, 2015, 11:59:53 PM
OK, got it. Well, you are pretty handy with a welder...
Kind of like a rock/dirt separator you see on big construction sites. I could whip up something in SketchUp, if you like.
Good description, I can visualize it, no problem. It would be like grizzly bars on a static rock screen. I built a small one several years ago for our farm gravel pit to classify aggregate and separate big rocks.
Thanks
YH
Maybe a couple of high school kids to work a few hours a week stacking the lumber?
You did an excellent job! I enjoyed the journey with you,just glad I got to watch. :D
Me and Cedarman will have to come visit again and tour the new expansion.
I thought I'd give a status report, a little follow up on how things are progressing with the new kiln, now that I've got a little experience with it.
Things are going very good, with a few hiccups along the way.
The controller works pretty well, easy to get a feel for, and pretty nice. It would be a little confusing at first, but since I had decent experience with my other kiln, this was an easy switch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~160.jpg)
smiley_thumbsup
Glad to hear that things are doing well. :)
Well done YellowHammer! 8) You do very careful and neat work. And that gives a good impression of quality of your wood too. ;)
I like your setup/process and would like to implement something similar with my own kiln (also an L200M - but not reefer). I hope to begin with the kiln cart and then progress into using pallets (300-400bdft is about all I can lift with existing equipment). If all works well with that process, I would like to switch my air drying shed over to carts and pallets also. That will take some coin though :-\
Hello All-
I can't tell you how helpful this thread has been as we build our kiln in Los Angeles. Wonderful pictures, great descriptions and insightful ideas - thank you!
I do have a question - however. We're building our kiln cart and the Nyle instructions call for the crosspieces, on which the stacks of lumber will sit, to be made of 3x3 hardwood.
I know that YellowHammer decided to use steel to work with his pallet system - but do folks really think these crosspieces need to be hardwood? I would think 3x3's of soft would work as well.
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks
Charles
By the time you drill all the holes to bolt the wood to the beams you could have welded up 3x3 box steel many times over. Properly coated the steel will outlast the wood and does not react to kiln conditions. Caveat: Be sure to totally encase the steel with a good paint or similar. Oak reacts to ferrous metal.
Thanks One with Wood - good advice, steel it is.
The guys at Nyle said they thought the softwood would probably end up crushed over time, but 105' of 3x3 hardwood is expensive here in Los Angeles - so steel makes some good economic sense from where I'm standing.
Steel, with the proper tools, is actually very easy and precise to work with, and will stay accurate over the long haul. I wanted this kiln to be a hands off, no fiddling, long service life system. It's critical that the stacks of lumber be placed on a dead flat surface and once the metal carts are built and welded they are "done" and will never have to be adjusted, shimmed, tightened, etc.
Notice that even though the carts are painted, steel may discolor wood when in contact. That's where the pallets come in, because among all their other benefits, they protect the wood in the stacks from any contact with the steel carts.
Cjderosa,
Thanks for reading about my project, and I would be very interested in seeing your kiln progress.
Howdy YellowHammer-
We've been using your pictures and descriptions as our main model actually. Though, I must admit, we're not quite as thorough as you are.
Here are a few shots I've got:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/image2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/IMG_9636~2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/Screen_Shot_2015-10-07_at_8_11_35_AM.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/IMG_9922.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/IMG_9968.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/Screen_Shot_2015-10-07_at_9_20_02_PM.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40630/Screen_Shot_2015-10-07_at_9_17_24_PM.jpg)
Looks to be progressing great.
It is looking very good. I now wish that I had gone this route instead of the L53.
Since I am about to build something even if it is wrong I have a question. What would you do different if you were starting over with your education you now have?
If you placed your fans on the sides of the stack angled to blow over the stack which would allow a higher stack would that be OK?
What type of budget should I expect (NO Gravel estimate since that is totally different to each region)
One more Question
I am limited on liner room what about installing Swinging doors on the high cube and not having the carts track and such. I understand they will have to be built well but an 40 by 40 space is doable in my location.
Cjderosa
That looks great, I'm jealous of that big hunk of concrete you've got to work with. I notice that you've still got the freezer pack installed on the end of the reefer, I was able to cut a deal and sell some of the refrideration equipment back as salvage. I used a lot of expanding foam plugging up all the holes and passive ductwork.
Just_sawing,
After its all said and done, I'm not sure that there is anything significant I'd change. It has proven to dry wood very well and evenly, and I can load and unload it with a minimum of fuss and muss. I've tweaked a few things, but for the most part, it just works.
Putting swinging doors would be a great modification, but it would result in a huge door seal, and the seal is one of the most critical pieces of the kiln. With my other kiln, I had to fight my door seal for a long time until I got it right, I didn't want to go through that again with this one so I did everything to make sure the seals were perfect. The door seal is what keeps the $$heat in when undergoing the sterilization cycle, and it's the difference between reaching temperature quickly or slowly and minimizing my electric bill.
@YellowHammer
Hello,
Just joined. Mostly just ask you a few questions.
The company I work for is gearing up for our own Reefer Nyle Kiln. I noticed your original post is going on two years now and I had some questions.
1. One gent on here mentioned fan and light switches going bad every 4 months and the heat being hard on the conduit. Have you had any problems like this?
2. It looked like you used mild steel for you interior tracks. Is this so and how have they been holding up? Rust and what not?
3. Are there any things you wish you did differently now that you have had it running for a bit?
^ curious as well.
It's been awhile, and time for a little follow up. First off, the kiln has been everything I'd hoped for, and much more. It has been much less maintenance and fuss than our smaller stick build kiln, and I would not hesitate to make a copy again. I'd even thought of starting to build them on the side to sell.
The excellent functionality of the kiln was due in very large part to the information that folks shared with me on the Forum. So thanks guys, for all your help!
The kiln container itself looks new, the seals are still in excellent shape, and without doubt, the correct kiln choice is a high cube reefer with stainless interior and aluminum exterior.
I'm still loading the carts with a forklift, and push them in the kiln from the end or side.
Actually, that's about it. Not a whole lot.
YH - good info. I'll chime in because I've been operating an L200 container kiln for over 12 years and have a long history of operation with one.
Re the lack of corrosion, IMO your theory is correct. When I load my kiln with green oak material, due to the high humidity the corrosion effect is significant. When loaded with <20% MC oak, corrosion is pretty much nonexistent.
In 12 years of almost 7/24 operation, I've had to replace 2 fan motors (there are 6 in the kiln) and two capacitors. I've had to replace about 6 thermal switches in the L200 and four of the PLC's in the controller (I have the Woodmizer 2000 model controller from Nyle). I've had to replace several fan motor's on the L200, but that's because I added additional heat strips inside for setting the pitch on SYP and they tend to cook the motors if left operating too long. This last time I fabricated an insulated metal heat shield for the bottom of the fan motor so hopefully that will extend my motor life. Additionally about 4 of the 6 fan switche / breakers have been replaced.
Four of my fans (the two on each end) have doors in front of them that we can close if we want to only run a reduced quantity of fans. Typically we will measure the initial air flow through the stacks and open/close fan doors (and power fans) as required in order to obtain an average of 350 FPS air flow through the stacks.
My fan wiring is not encased in conduit; rather it is exposed Romex with waterproof connectors where it enters the fans. Only one motor had a corrosion problem in the wire nuts about 4 years ago from a leaky gasket.
I modified my container by building a recess in one side for the kiln unit it self. This allows me an unrestricted path from end to end between the carts and the kiln walls.
I've found that when drying from green I experience a slower drying rate in the stack that is closest to the double doors. I think that this is because I lose heat on that end when I enter the kiln to check on the load. The stacks towards the back of the kiln do not seem to have the same problem as the one by the door.
After 12 years of operation I'm starting to see some corrosion in the steel surfaces of the kiln (mine was a converted, non insulated shipping container that we insulated ourselves) - mainly at the top. The plastic vents are also starting to break down and will need replacing.
My carts are 4" c-channel on 18" centers, and the stack width averages 40" wide and 72" tall. Two carts are 16' and one is 12'. We place a row of stickers on top of the channel to keep the bottom layer of lumber off of the metal. This also allows us to place tyvek between the stickers and the cart to baffle the entry side of the stacks between the lumber and the cart.
One key area to pay attention to is baffling the load. Even a small hole will significantly impact air flow and impact the drying rate as well as the consistency across the load.
I'm planning to build a dedicated kiln building later this year and transfer the equipment into it and retire the container (although I may retrofit it to be a slow drying slab kiln). The new building will have chambers for two Nyle L200's along with an area for a future vacuum kiln. My main motivation in doing this is to end up with a setup where I can load directly into the kiln with a forklift and get away from the carts. Additionally I think that I'll have more consistent drying from green with a taller, narrower width container that will allow me to place four bundles of 1K bd ft each, side by side and on top of one another.
If I had it to do over again I would start with an insulated shipping container instead of a non insulated one. The reason why was the high cost (and pain in the butt factor) of insulating mine plus the fact that the insulated ones are usually made from non-corrosive material such as stainless steel and aluminum. I would also cut a pair of man doors into the sides to allow me to enter for status checks w/o having to open the end doors, and would probably add additional air flow fans near the kiln unit itself to help distribute the air coming out of the L200 more evenly from end to end.
I have another question for you YellowHammer, any way I can get a picture of your removable track bridge? I need to build one for our kiln and it is easier to copy a working and proven part then try to make one from scratch.
A great thread. I also have a "refer" container and it is by far better than my stick built kiln. The only problems I have is a bit of mold from drying from dead green. The unit is so sealed my drying problems come from being overloaded. The only other problem is instead of motors going bad, I've had capicitors go bad. The unit is at least twice as efficient as my stick built, it cuts the electric bill in half. I'm in the process of moving the kiln guts into another refer unit. I don't use the track system, I just use steel pipe to roll the load in and out. This works for me since I mostly saw 16' lumber
Quote from: TheTall on April 18, 2017, 02:06:09 PM
I have another question for you YellowHammer, any way I can get a picture of your removable track bridge? I need to build one for our kiln and it is easier to copy a working and proven part then try to make one from scratch.
The bridge is made of channel, with angle welded on it with a staggered edge. Then a piece of rebar is welded in the angle to act as a guide for the mating piece of angle track.
Another thing I like about your setup YH is how you filled in the railroad bed with gravel. For those that might not know, the container is about one foot high off the ground and to be able to push a load in with a machine, that raised bed needs to be created and filled in. IMO its a much easier way to load it than lowering the container into the ground.
Yes,
Matching the gravel heights is important, in order to have a flat, level surface.